MIKE'S REBUTTAL #6Jack can't bring himself to admit there is no scripture that says Jesus spoke all things into being.  He can't admit that it is just another or his “conjecture paraphrases” like “fully investitured son”.  So, just take it from me……there isn't one.Although I don't believe this was one of his “one per post” questions that I M…[Read more]

Hi WJ,First, like Dennison said, your point A is a refutation, not an assertion.  The thing is, I never said anything for you to refute about monogenes.   Second, when did I say that the Psalmist wrote about God begetting a Son on the same day (or millennium) that it happened?  Just because the Psalmist wrote it 700 years ago doesn't mean the ac…[Read more]

Okay.  Thanks Dennison.  I respect your opinion (you trinni-lover ) and thank you for taking out of your time to help us.WJ, let me go at it another way.  1 Cor 15:27 says,27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put ev…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2010,01:51)The point was made so to silence the claim that “Monogenes” can be used to prove that Jesus had a beginning.It is merely conjecture to say that the word “applies” to Jesus before he came in the flesh.So it is a “fact” that it cannot be used to prove he had a beginning.Is this not true?Hi WJ,I KNOW…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2010,03:13)The truth is “The Word was with God and was God”.Arius had it spot on WJ. But I understand there was some commotion about whether Arius believed the Son to be divine at all. That's where he lost the support of Eusebius (and me, if those reports were true). Eusebius believed that while the Son was…[Read more]

Quote (barley @ July 20 2010,11:46)Truth is simple.  At times getting to the truth is not easy, the erroneous doctrines get in the way and obscure it. There is such a simplicity in realizing that trinitarian doctrine is unscriptural.I agree.  I started a thread once called, “Trinitarians: Are you smarter than a 5th grader?”  What you just said wa…[Read more]

Absolutely! Let's bring in a moderator!Scripture says Jesus has BEEN GIVEN “all power and authority”. If that literally means “ALL”, then it means Jesus holds “every last bit of power in existence”. That would mean the Father has none. So therefore, the “all” must not be absolute.WJ has agreed that it doesn't mean Jesus has MORE power than the…[Read more]

I'd be happy if they just told me where their #3 god was supposed to sit.  You know, their #3 god who wasn't even added to their “trinity” until 55 years AFTER the Nicene Creed.Yet, supposedly scripture makes it abundantly clear that the holy spirit has always been God.   Why did they leave him out for 55 years?And why doesn't he get a throne o…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2010,10:57)Quote (JustAskin @ July 18 2010,04:10)To all,Is there more than one meaning of 'Firstborn'?Is there, 'Firstborn' meaning, literally, the first by birth who is then, by Jewish tradition, the major inheritor of the Father's property.And is there 'Firstborn' meaning 'to become the one who is the…[Read more]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 19 2010,10:17)What it does prove is you can't use the word “Monogenes” to prove that Jesus had a beginning!That simple. But it has taken you 20 pages to admit that!See, here we go again.  That was NEVER in your point A, although I knew that's where it would lead if I gave in.I most certainly CAN AND WILL use…[Read more]

Save that one for the debate Roo. You'll need something to fall back on. mike

See Dennison,This is the kind of debate I want. You make ONE point or scripture or obsevation, then I either refute it or agree with it, then we move on to the next.Look how much posting it took me to answer only 3 of your 13 points. And that doesn't even include your analysis and conclusion. I just don't have that kind of time on my hands…[Read more]

You said:Quote verse 6: The Lord God sent the angel. Rev 1 says,1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.God is the first and u…[Read more]

You said:Quote verse 5: this lord is the light, no more sun nor candles.Verse 1 and 3 distinguish between the Lamb (who we know is Jesus) and God (who must be someone other than Jesus). So when 5 says the “Lord God” will be their light, why would you assume John now thinks the Lamb IS the God he just distinguished him from?mike

I don't know what you want me to say to you.I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ANYWHERE IN REVELATION!I gave you my understanding that God was talking in chapter 21 and continued talking all the way up until it was made clear that the speaker is now Jesus in 22:16.  That is how I understand it.  So for you t…[Read more]

Thanks barley!  I did not know about Laban and Daniel, although I wonder why they would consider themselves “grandiose”.What Jack is pretending to ignore is that Nebuchadnezzar (twice) and Artaxerxes (once) were referred to as “kingS of kings”.  Canaan was told he would become the “slaveS of slaves”.Solomon's ONE song was called his “songS of s…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,02:19)Oxy………….I do believe there is a speaking in tongues but it only edifies those who are speaking in it , and must be translated for others to understand,  Paul Said He would rather speak on word in a Known tongue then many in a unknown tongue. peace and love…………………….geneAnd what the…[Read more]

Quote (Oxy @ July 18 2010,20:31)Rokkaman, if the Holy Spirit was the Word of God, then why did the Word of God, when He was Jesus, say that He would send the Holy Spirit if He was the Holy Spirit Himself.And how could the Holy Spirit descend upon Himself at Jesus' baptism?Good one! mike

Hi Dennison,Sorry it took so long for this response.  Btw, I didn't call YOU a trinitarian.  I contrasted you from them by saying even THEY (as opposed to YOU) don't think the Father and Son are the same PERSON.I can honestly see how you come to your conclusion.  But you must start with chapter 21, not 22.  21 has God talking to John, then the ang…[Read more]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 19 2010,04:19)The New testament is unmistakeably clear that Jesus was “begotten,” that is, He assumed His OFFICE as King-Son AT HIS RESURRECTION.KJ,Do you ever just sit back away from yourself and listen to the crap you spew?  Do you ever even consider how much you must butcher God's word to make your doctrine seem…[Read more]