Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,07:56)As far as Mike, I don't see how you can say he has shown fruit unless you mean that fruit is the same as truth and because his “truth” lines up with yours then he has shown much truth.Calling people idiots and jerks is not fruit at all.Hi WJ,I believe you are mistaken, sir.  It most definitely showed…[Read more]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 11 2010,10:17)Kathi,I have already posted the JW source Mike gave in our first debate which says that that God begets in the SAME WAY that men like Abraham beget.Hi Jack,I'm pretty sure that's not what was said.  I think you misunderstand (maybe purposely).  What they meant was that if you say “Abraham begot….”, it m…[Read more]

Hi All,This is the way I see it.  I don't know squat about Tertullian, but I read a small part of Kathi's link.  Irene says that Tertullian was the “father of the trinity”.  I don't know anything about that, for I haven't researched it.  But these are things he wrote:for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because beg…[Read more]

I agree with Marty. The only one in Rev called the Alpha and Omega is God. And Jesus is clearly identified as someone other than God throughout Rev.peace and love,mike

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2010,11:34)Mike,Another good question and I have thought about that too.Look at this verse in Proverbs and see that the 'foundation' was still in process when the seas were gathered on day three.Prov 8:29-3129 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the…[Read more]

Fair enough t8.

Quote (martian @ Aug. 09 2010,05:50)My answer is I do not know. I do not know because I do not know where/what Christ is referring to with the “before”. The scripture does not say and the only way YOU can say is by assumption. If a scripture is unclear as this one is there can be no clear answer. YOU give an answer based on your preconceived ide…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2010,02:07)Mike………….Bring Jesus back to your (EXACT) identity and you will find renewed Hope brother and delight yourself in His GOD and OUR GOD , His Father and OUR FATHER. Our testimony about Jesus is right brother. Undue yourself from all those false teachings of the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCES, and you…[Read more]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,14:22)Hi,Does it really matter if someone believes in the Trinity or not ?Hi Shimmer,  It does matter, but I'll let inspired words tell you.Matt 4:10 NIV10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'”Here, Jesus himself is quoting Moses.  And Moses was s…[Read more]

JA, Your arrogance and misrepresentation of the truth is really starting to irritate me.You said:Quote You cannot question Eusebius or any 'early Church' writer. And you have already been down the road of learning how some backtracked on their own beliefs when put under pressure.You know why I used Eusebius.  It wasn't to tell people to believe…[Read more]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 09 2010,14:36)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2010,06:31)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 09 2010,07:02)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,05:56)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,11:15)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,04:55)Well Duh!  Everyone knows that one.  I think, therefore I am.Is that right O wise one? mikeoh i dont k…[Read more]

Hi Kathi,So sorry, but look at this:4 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?       Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!       Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set,       or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together       and a…[Read more]

Hello JAudge,What you say is fair and simple.We are on point #5 from page 1 of this thread.  In point #5, SF claims that Jesus is “the beginning and the end” in Rev.  We have expanded this to include “the Alpha and Omega”, for SF thinks this is also Jesus.So we are now trying to get to the bottom of who the “Alpha and Omega” is in Rev 22:13.  …[Read more]

Hi Martian,God has known the end from the beginning always…….scripture says so,Isaiah 46:10I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.So I can't and won't argue the point that Jesus was foreordained as we all were.  But the difference is…[Read more]

Hey guys, Unfortunately, patting each other on the back doesn't count as scriptural proof.   Neither do your wishes for Jesus to be the same as us.What do ya say……..is it time for 17:5?Okay then……..coming right up fellas.peace and love,mike

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 09 2010,09:20)OK WJ and Roo, I will restate what you are concerned about here:My original statement:Quote Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be (like some on here). My revised statement:Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be like some on here, imo, since I consider…[Read more]

Hi Dennison,Yes the Lamb will have his own throne in New Jerusalem.  My question is where in Rev is the Lamb or Jesus said to be “the one seated on the throne”?And when the first voice came “from the throne”, why do you think it was God, and not a herald? Did you even look at 19:5, where the same wording is used, but it is clear that it is not…[Read more]

Hi Shimmer,I have never studied the writings of the early church fathers as you have.  In fact, the most I've ever read was what you posted from Ignatius.  Oh, and I've read one small clip that WJ posted from Eusebius.  Just that little bit confused me.  And I've also never left scripture for a second.  So I'm not sure what you are talking abou…[Read more]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 09 2010,10:30)Mike, Show me how you believe that the verses are about Adam, not what someone else says.I don't engage in 'someone else says', what do You say?There is no need for external input for the Scriptures, more than so.And the internet is full of personal interpretations, so who's is more correct than another's? Who…[Read more]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 09 2010,07:02)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,05:56)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,11:15)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,04:55)Well Duh!  Everyone knows that one.  I think, therefore I am.Is that right O wise one? mikeoh i dont know you could be a woman for all i know, and super old.Hi Dennison,Are these “…[Read more]