Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,14:21)Can you not see Hebrews 1:10 applies to YHVH rather than Jesus?I have wondered, and even argued that point against both Jack and Keith.  But Paul is talking about Jesus before and after that quote, and he uses the word “and” to connect 8-9 which is clearly about the Son to 10.That's pretty strong evidence that he…[Read more]

Hi barley,I'm bailing from this thread. It was a mistake to post it because it is very weak as far as proving a pre-existence.Paul said he was “in the presence of God” while he was on earth, and although I don't think that's what Jesus meant in this verse, I can't prove it.Why haven't you come to see me in Phil 2 like I requested? Bring your…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2010,13:24)Mike,The words were from the Bishop and also the new convert.  Btw, according to you no one better be caught being a servant of Christ.  Tell that to Paul, a bondservant of Christ's.leader/LEADERgod/GODLord/LORDserve/SERVEsavior/SAVIORcreated through/CREATORdo obeisance/WORSHIP

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,23:07)EDJ………..Your argument is with Jesus not Me it was He who Said He was the Root and Offspring of David not ME. In fact he said it twice in Revelations, so go there and deal with it there.I don't think Ed is the one “arguing with Jesus”…..are you Ed?  It seems to me the one arguing with Jesus is you…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,15:42)Simply when He raised Lazarus from the dead He could have allowed People to think He did it, instead of GOD the Father.Okay Gene,Let's say the raising of Lazarus IS the point in Jesus' life when he could have been “in the nature of God”.After God raised Lazarus through Jesus and people thought of Jesus as…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,14:31)because you say every thing was created (BY) Jesus, and then when that didn't work you changed it to (through)Is that what REALLY happened Gene?  Or have I already explained that I was quoting a translation that used “by”?  Haven't I already explained that I NEVER liked the word “by” in those scriptures?  …[Read more]

Hi barley,This is not a “game” with any set “rules”.If you can't tell from these 4 threads whether or not I believe the words in John 17:5 to be literal, then you haven't been paying attention to well.I posted a scripture that I think clearly indicates Jesus' pre-existence.  The PERSON Jesus says “the glory I HAD with you”.  If you think this is i…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 08 2010,08:48)This guy Sharbil was not one bit afraid to worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even though he was only days old in the Lord.  Amazing!Hi Kathi,Well, there ya have it.  You have effectively eliminated our need for the scriptures.  Some dude named Sharbil, who probably hadn't yet read the sc…[Read more]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 08 2010,01:04)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2010,08:25)Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,07:11)There is only one Scripture that I know of were He is called the Almighty one and that is in Rev.Hi Irene,There is no scripture where Jesus is called “Almighty”.  None at all.mikeMike!  Yes there is !!! I am trying to find that Scripture a…[Read more]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07)Hi David,So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' … 'and they said they created everything THRU Their son' 'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing!Hi David,I agree with Ed here, and if you are honest, you will admit that “Elohim” is never called a “THEY”.  Nor is the Holy…[Read more]

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 08 2010,02:02)Good Morning Mike,Ok, let's go with what you say is true about YHWH Elohim being a name linked together…..YHWH God, ok?Then Ruwach Elohim should be treated the same and should be a name….Spirit God….which would be logical and consistent with the treatment of the linguistics.Good afternoon Big Wave…[Read more]

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 06 2010,13:26)Why isn't Elohim the “Name” of the entity that has two essences? You choose to accept the one essence, “YHWH” Elohim, as a name, which I agree with.No David,”YHVH Elohim” is a name/title linked together. This person's title is “God”, and His name is YHVH.Do you understand this?mike

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,13:18)Well Mike,As I said I don't think it makes a difference because both are true.  He was not the second born of or over all creation or even before creation, He was the firstborn of the creation that came through Him and He became the firstborn before the ages and before anything was created.  Eusebius says t…[Read more]

So we don't have a Creator, like scripture says?  We have Creators?And your forgot the first question in my last post.And as far as #1 and #2, you are basically just “understanding” the Greek words to “mean” whatever meaning fits best with your doctrine then, right?So let's bring this down to the brass tacks Kathi.  Whether God begot, created, s…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,12:56)Mike,We have already discussed this and looked at the explanation of the NET Bible.  I don't think that either word makes a difference since I believe both words to be true.  He was the first one begotten of God of all creation and He is over all creation, not inferior to it.Yeah, I saw that explanation m…[Read more]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?Martian,Even if Jesus didn't…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,15:56)What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation? Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being? Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)?Hi…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 07 2010,12:31)Jesus is all the Father is aside from the Father being the one to beget and the source of all things and the Son to be the one to be begotten and receiver of all things…eventually they both have all things that each other has.Hi Kathi,And which one of them is it that scripture tells us to worship and serve…[Read more]

SF:Quote I didnt say that Jesus is NOT HIM,Im saying they are not exactly the same. What does that mean?  Jesus either IS God, or he is NOT God.SF:Quote 1.  Jesus revealed the Father by Testimony, by LIVING it,2.  Therefore God revealed through him his Relationship as Father, 3.  is the same as being God revealed.4.  or lets be specfic, the natu…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,01:58)Mike………….I noticed you did no commit on scriptures i posted in revelations, that Show Jesus still claims His roots and linage from David, not from some preexisting source as you presume. Why would Jesus still used that as His origins in revelation if that was not the case. Get it?.Hi Gene,It is YOU…[Read more]