Quote (Paladin @ April 25 2011,07:10)“which is in heaven”is not in the manuscripts.If it was in the manuscripts, it still would not apply, because it is not talking about Jesus before or during his lifetime, but after his ascension, told by John, in 96 a.d., by which time he certainly is in heaven.Hi Paladin,It is in quite a few mss.  In others,…[Read more]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,18:11)Is WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. in the Greek? Because this is what is the most important part of that Scripture. if He was already a man, He would not have to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. That is what Mike always quotes.Hey Irene,This is a good one for you to test your Greek learning. The word “man”…[Read more]

Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:43)But also, I can learn from my brothers and sisters in Christ. God can speak to me through any one of them.Love in Christ,MartyDoes that include Irene, Pierre and Mike? Or are you only able to learn from brothers and sisters who agree with your doctrine?

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,16:17)AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was.Good point – and I agree, Irene.Just because Jesus is saying, “I'm now ready, Father” doesn't mean he expected at that exact instant to be alongside his Father in heaven. After…[Read more]

Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,12:24)But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning.Hi Marty,Your own words are doing it again.  You say if I can understand how he was IN the Father, then I can…[Read more]

NO! You go back to page one and answer every one you've missed!!!!! I'm tired Kathi. Maybe you could just acknowledge that the Hebrews often referred to vice regents OF Jehovah as “Jehovah” or “God”. And that Jesus only has a one in a “myriads upon myriads” chance of being that vice regent of God in any particular scripture.I pointed…[Read more]

Good work Irene. mike

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:12)Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:41)Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57)how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted:“I am in the Father and the Father is in me”Love in Christ,MartyI don't know Marty.  Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes?mikeHi…[Read more]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)Hi Mike:Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us.Hi Marty,I don't personally believe 3:15 to be a messianic prophecy, but I get your point.…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,19:46)Remember we are told to seek and we will find Knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given to us. “Let him who lacks wisdom and understanding Ask” . And also remember “THE (SUM) OF GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH”.Hello Gene,It's hard for you to ask for the truth when you apparently had it before you even…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,19:10)Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,08:29)Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,15:04) meant that answer to your previous post.Adam, was FIRST BORN SON OF GOD in the Flesh.Jesus is the Second born son of God in the fleshNo, because many others between Adam and Jesus were also sons of God in the flesh.  Do you deny…[Read more]

Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,19:01)Ok, Mike, here it is AGAIN…The fact that we do not know who the Second born of creation is DOES NOT exclude Jesus from being the First bornThank you so much for your direct answer to my question.  If you think you posted this answer before, then please copy and paste it so I can see that I messed up by asking…[Read more]

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)1) Who did he pre-exist as? He was not God:Not that it's important we know every detail about Jesus' pre-existence, but you are correct that he was not THE God he was with in the beginning.Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)He was not an angel:Sure he was.  “Aggelos” simply means “messenger”, and Jesus,…[Read more]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,17:13)Yes, you are right, some manuscripts have it one way, and others another, But even so, this states that the Son of man came down from heaven.  He wasn't the Son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, how are you going to explain this to support your doctrine of pre-existence?Hi Marty,First of all,…[Read more]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57)how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted:“I am in the Father and the Father is in me”Love in Christ,MartyI don't know Marty.  Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes?mike

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,15:12)He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time.No he wasn't Marty. Many mss don't even have the last line: “Who is in heaven”. And others have “who WAS in heaven” or “who is FROM heaven”.Remember that the Greek language has an historical present tense, which many…[Read more]

And I'm STILL waiting for the answer to my question:Istari, is the fact that we don't know who the second born is a solid reason to just assume that Jesus isn't the literal firstborn of all creation? YES or NO?mike

Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,15:04) meant that answer to your previous post.Adam, was FIRST BORN SON OF GOD in the Flesh.Jesus is the Second born son of God in the fleshNo, because many others between Adam and Jesus were also sons of God in the flesh.  Do you deny this?Istari, I understand what you claim:  That Adam was God's “firstborn” (as in “…[Read more]

Istari,Was Adam the first “firstborn of all creation” that Jesus “replaced”?Were all things really created through Adam?I think not.mike

Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,14:35)Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:48)Quote (Istari @ April 24 2011,07:46)So far no one has commented on the points I raised – seems they fear saying what they know to be true (They have no problem commenting when they think I'm wrong – sad, so sad! I thought unity was a part of Spiritualness and truth!)I…[Read more]