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[martian]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,10:41)

Martian, You wrote: Quote I am making fun of the stupidity of the Preexisters. It does not sound like satire or mockery to me.  It sounds like anger that has grown from a bitter root. Mockery would be to make fun of the fact that Preexisters believe the absurdity that Jesus was born before his ancestors.  They must also believe that a person is an adult before they are conceived and that every event occurs in reverse. Their arguments are no more rational than those of the Trinitarians because Satan has placed a powerful delusion on both sects.  The duty of a Christian is to speak the truth in love and always persevere in hoping that God will free those who have ears but cannot hear from their self delusion. These forums are one place to attempt to accomplish that goal.  Whether your effort is fruitful is up to God and not you; so trust in God and trust in his Son that all things happen for God’s good purpose.

I am not really concerned about what you think I mean or how I sound.
In addition forums are a waste of time. Entertainment is the best that can be accomplished. I am sorry that you have yet to learn that.

[martian]

Quote ( @ –)

martian,Oct. wrote: kerwin,Oct. wrote: Martian,

So speaks the whacked. LOL

[martian]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,17:29)

Martian,   Who cares what others use to justify their beliefs, a Christian tests to see if the spirit of those beliefs is from God or not.  A Christian watches themself to ensure their own believes and actions come from God.  The bitterness and anger I hear in your words does not come from God.  Please cloth yourself.

Not angry. It would take someone that I have a bit of respect for me to get angry. I am making fun of the stupidity of the preexisters.
If this venue was even a little bit of a ministry then I might be more careful. However, since forums are (at best) no more then entertainment and especially since the moderators on this site are completely biased it has no importance whatsoever.

[martian]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,09:00)

Martian, Just because even an expert claims something is true does not mean it is. You lay out your case and allow your hearers/readers to render their judgment.  You then try to make another case to explain your viewpoint whether believe it or not.   At this point I hear you but not the evidence to support your viewpoint. Patience and love is required to teach.

To quote Mike, It is none of your business how I come to my conclusions. however I can give you a hint. I learned how to walk with God from Monkeys.

OR

I could claim my knowledge from Armstrong the cult leader or the Catholic church.

All of these qualifications seem to be good enough for the preexisters so I guess that is all I need.

[martian]

1. Firstborn does not necessarily mean first birthed. It can be an appointed position as we know Christ was appointed to many position titles.
2. Col 1 15- 17 is about Christ. The Hebrews have no concept of “creating something from nothing”. That is a Western cultural concept. Creation means to fatten or fill up. It carries the concept of bringing to completion. Christ ministry brought all of creation to completion. Without Christ nothing in the world has any meaning.

No mystical preexistence is needed to understand this verse. All that is needed is some honest research into the language and culture within which it was written. Of course I have not yet met a preexister that has honesty when it comes to interpretation of scripture. Most or monkey ministries.
Don't think I am back. I am only putting in a point because I was ask to explain certain concepts.

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 10 2010,04:48)

Quote (martian @ Oct. 10 2010,04:03) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2010,09:16) Quote (martian @ Oct. 09 2010,05:42) What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on. Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you. Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more. Come on you monkey ministry. Hi Martian, Matt.15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. You plan on leading beginner Christians? Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org And God destroyed thousands in bloody conflict for the greater good. I am trying to get the moderators to block me from getting on here. Every time I get on here it is a sin, yet I feel an unnatural (possibly demonic) drawing to continue in these vain pursuits.  The antagonistic atmosphere and the casting pearls before the swine doctrinalists like Mike is a sin to me. There is nothing but religion and death in these forums and I want life. the forums serve no purpose any more then taking drugs yet they are just as addictive. I beg the moderators to cut off the supply of forum drug to me. I want it no more. HI Martian, I suggest you stop sinning. Ask the “HolySpirit” to help you in this endeavor. Life comes from (within) the “HolySpirit”! I will pray for you as well! Father: take the scales away from Martians eyes that he may see “The Truth” of your word! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Do you actually believe that you are in any place to give advise or council or that I would be so foolish as to take that advise from the likes of you? Has your special form of numerology really whacked you out that much? I am so over all of you miscreants and numb skulls.

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2010,09:16)

Quote (martian @ Oct. 09 2010,05:42) What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on. Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you. Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more. Come on you monkey ministry. Hi Martian, Matt.15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. You plan on leading beginner Christians? Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

And God destroyed thousands in bloody conflict for the greater good. I am trying to get the moderators to block me from getting on here. Every time I get on here it is a sin, yet I feel an unnatural (possibly demonic) drawing to continue in these vain pursuits. The antagonistic atmosphere and the casting pearls before the swine doctrinalists like Mike is a sin to me.
There is nothing but religion and death in these forums and I want life. the forums serve no purpose any more then taking drugs yet they are just as addictive.
I beg the moderators to cut off the supply of forum drug to me. I want it no more.

[martian]

What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on.
Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you.
Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more.
Come on you monkey ministry.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2010,13:46)

On the contrary Irene, Martian's post deserves a pat on the back, not a tile. By his failure to respond to solid points, he has by default admitted that he can't. He will not ever be able to explain how someone who already was a human being can be made into one, and so his ONLY defense is to run and hide from the question. He will NEVER be able to tell us about some “ACT OF KINDNESS” that he perfomed that he wouldn't have been able to perform if Jesus pre-existed, and so he will run and hide. And he will never be able to tell us who the “Word” – who was made flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son – was if it wasn't Jesus.  So he will run and hide. So even if he leaves HN and surrounds himself with nothing but non-preexisters, those three little “bugs” we've put in his ear will always be nagging at him.  Who knows, maybe he'll someday rethink his doctine.   peace and love, mike

I had to return just long enough to call you a silly little person. You did exactly what I predicted. I took a few pages of your monkey responses to show around a ministerial council and you got a good laugh. You should try absurd comedy for job.
What a putz. Ohhh maybe the other moderators will kick me off for that. LOL

[martian]

Thanks to all for their kind words. Blessings to all and good night

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2010,09:06)

Hey Martian May the Lord be with you. We will see you again when you feel like being entertained. WJ

It's true. It was becoming less and less entertaining and I could expect nothing else from it. But thank you for your kind words.

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,15:55)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2010,15:43) 'Ed J, The word beginning is vague as it is a descriptive word.  The something that is being described is simply not mentioned in John 15:26-27 and therefore is implied.  John's First Century readers most likely knew what Jesus was speaking of but you seemed to have missed it.  Have you ever considered the possibility Jesus was speaking of his ministry and not creation? I did not mention Jeremiah 1:5 but will now.  Do you believe in prophecy?  Can one prophesy of an individual existing before they do?  If the answer to the later question yes and one must know about someone to foretell about them then  it follows one can know about someone before they exist. Neither verse you chose to use backed up your point. The word “conceive” can mean “form” as in “I conceived an idea”. A number of scripture speak of Jesus being conceived in Mary's reproductive system. Hi Kerwin, I'm not trying to change your mind as you might think, this all started because Martian says he goes by clear-cut Scriptures. You helped me to illustrate that even John 15:26-27 is not so clear-cut! And Martian agrees there is no Scripture that says we did not pre-exist! So you all can continue to argue over irrelevant things if you wish. I will only persist if you or others seek agreement with me! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I do follow clear cut scriptures. Jesus is called human being many many times in scripture. Do human beings preexist? Yes or no?
If humanity does not preexist then Christ does not.

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,13:55)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 28 2010,00:25) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2010,07:04) Quote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement : to contain potentially : to express indirectly Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time. For example this verse – For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it. Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man. Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it. Hi Martian, Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed? I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse! Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org What kind of silliness is this?  You want me to show you a verse where something did not happen?  Why do I not show you a verse that says that elephants don't fly. If I can't that must mean they can? Hi Martian, You can't produce a verse to corroborate your assertion of no pre-existance, yet you still believe it? Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Scripture says all over the place that Jesus is a man. Men do not preexist. End of story.
I cannot find a scripture that says elephants do not fly so of couse they must be able to fly.

[martian]

Mike,
I did not read your posts and have no intention of doing so. Honest Bible discussion is a loss with you. I have nothing more to say to you. In fact since all of the moderators are cultists on this site, I may leave altogether.
Have your kingdom. It will be short enough.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,14:02)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,01:33) BTW A big part of the reason I get tiles is because one of the moderators is a pre-exister. All 3 of us moderators are “pre-existers” Martian.  And none of us are trinitarians, yet you don't see WJ getting blocks.   And just so you know, I have never personally reported any of your posts or given you a block. And you are just plain MEAN to me! mike

Why should WJ get blocks. The same false ideas and concepts are the bull work of the preexistence theories and the Trinity. Both depend heavily on Christ being in some manner different then normal humanity. Trinitarians cannot denounce that Christ preexisted in some form because that would negate the theory of the trinity. The fact that I believe that scripture denounces it puts me at odds with both you and the trinitarians.
You and the trinitarians are kind of like China and the former Soviet Union. They can talk about their differences but when push comes to shove they are both communist states and have much in common.
As I said it is not a wonder that I get tiles with pre-existers as moderators.

Finally – I may have been too animated in some cases and not been as kind as I could have in the discussion but I believe the same could be said of you. The fact that I call your process of interpretation dishonest is the fruit of forum debates. If we all agreed on the same process of interpretation we would all come to the same conclusions or there would be no proofs at all, everything would just be opinion. In fact as I have posted on many occasions, until two debators agree on a process/principles under which the bible will be interpreted everything said will just be opinion. I have posted my principles many times and have asked for others to do the same. I have offered to discuss any and all of mine to make compromises. Is that being mean?
You have constantly trolled the forum trying to bait me into debate with you, when I have clearly stated that I saw no good fruit in it.
You have hijacked threads to trying to continue a debate I left and then judged my motives for leaving the debate calling me a coward and so on. You can do this, who is going to give a moderator a tile?
I have attempted to back out of a debate that has shown no good fruit but led to heated arguments contrary to the principles of unity of the Spirit. You on the other hand have tried on several occasions to drag me back into the debate. Your preoccupation with proving your doctrine has led you to deminish Christ as our example and judge the motives of others. Ignore clear principles of interpretation and led you to attempt to bait people into continual debate. Now you tell me which is being mean and which is showing the fruits of the spirit.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,13:50)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,03:28) If a person does a dishonest thing is he dishonest? I have proven many times that your interpretation processes are dishonest. PROVEN?  How?  Do you think I look up the words and then post DIFFERENT definitions than the one's the experts give?  Wouldn't you be able to just as easily look up those same words youself? I haven't done anything “dishonest” concerning this debate Martian.  Could it be that you are honestly coming to YOUR interpretation which just happens to disagree with the interpretation that I arrived at just as honestly as you? I can't help it that your interpretation goes against clearly written scriptures Martian.  That speaks about your ability to logically understand what is written…….not about my honesty. mike

On several occasions you have said that the manner/process in which you come to your conclusions is none of my business. In other words we are supposed to accept your opinion without question or proof. This is not only arrogant but does not lead to an honest discussion of the subject.
I have several times introduced evidence from many individual experts in the field and you will not even give them due consideration. In fact you have shown only disdain for any expert that does not agree with your theories and have made fun of them, calling them mere sinful men. You do this while at the same time spouting off about your English translation (made by mere sinful men) with no thought if the original languages or cultures indicate something else.
On several occasions I have posted principles that are universally excepted by the scientific community that deals with ancient languages and cultures. You have shown complete disdain for any scientific process of interpretation and relied on english translations and your opinion. Again that is not a fair or honest approach to Biblical interpretation.
I have several times shown clearly that an understanding of the culture in which the bible is written in paramount to understanding the intent of verse and you have shown contempt for the subject. You do this in contradiction to every known reputable language specialist's process. This is not honest.
And finally you have not been reasonable in the manner in which you see the effect a preexistence of Christ would have on his decisions and the manner in which he walked with God. You refuse to even consider that for one person to be a complete and unquestionable example for another (in how to complete the process of the plan of God) they must from conception forward be the same without any separate individual influence. (knowledge not available to both)
You have (to my knowledge) never expressed the reason why God would choose to morphe a “spirit being” into the position that a human could do.
You have never defined from scripture context what is meant by spirit being?
You have ignored parallel scriptures, context both immediate and overall, and cultural influence time and again. This is not an honest approach to Bible interpretation.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,13:57)

Hi Martian, I'll give you the same challenge I gave Gene earlier today.   Tell me ONE single action you took today in behalf of furthering Jesus' teachings that you would not have been able to do if Jesus pre-existed. Can you still follow Jesus' teaching to give to the poor if Jesus pre-existed? Can you still preach the good news about God's Kingdom like Jesus did if Jesus pre-existed? Your thread is about fruit.  Show me ONE SINGLE GOOD FRUIT that you have ever produced that couldn't have been produced by you if Jesus pre-existed. mike

Today I took hope that I could overcome problems in my life because I have the example of a human being just like me that did overcome the world. I can look at the scriptures that call him human and need not augment it in any way. there is not mystery to attempt to understand. there are no unanswered questions to ponder.
There is no questions that from his conception to his death he had no advantage over us in his attempt to walk with God and undergo the process of perfection. this gives me hope. this gives me a perfect example with no strings attached to muddy the water.
I know that I can be resurrected like Christ was because he is just like me.

If I believe the preexistence I must contend with just how much his preexistence (and the knowledge he brought from that prior life) effected his ability to overcome. I must question how much of his experiances effected his decision making and how I cannot have those same positive influences. Common sense would dictate that any info he had not available to us would effect the manner in which he made decisions. It would effect the criteria on which he makes decisions.
With the preexistence I must conjure up some formula to decypher in what ways Christ was human and in what ways he was some super being. Just like the Trinitarians. I am left with mystery and uncertainty. Not a good basis for unshakable faith.
Was Christ resurrection impacted in any way by his preexistence? How do you know?
Was Christ ability to resist temptation impacted by his preexistence? How do you know?
Your theory has introduced a large element of mystery in the simple gospel and raised questions about many of Christ accomplished. Hard to base unshakable faith on that.
This whole theory forces doubt on the perfection of Christ as our example. No one can say how much his so-called preexistence could have effected his performance in the plan of God. No one can even say what knowledge he brought from his preexistence into this life. No one can say when and how this super-knowledge was supposed to be imparted to him. It is all left to speculation and guesswork. It is hard to have unshakable faith based on speculation and guesswork.

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 27 2010,17:30)

mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things. Martian!  This is what you said to Georg, you find that not an attack on Georg's character?  Maybe your thinking is bogus to say the least, I find it an insult……. and a disrespect for Georg…….Any time you say something about someone about themselves that is not positive, makes it an insult…..and not necessary to say……..you are showing bad fruit……….Irene

On another thread you mentioned that you knew how to read/write German. You indicated that I do not. should I take that as an insult?
I simply mentioned that you have not trained in principles of interpretation. Have you studied manuscripts and translations. Have you taken courses on hermeneutics? Have you studied Hebrew culture and language. Have you even learned how to use the reference works on these subjects?
Thee is no insult in saying someone is not educated on certain matters. I appreciate that you feel a need to defend your husband but I think you have misunderstood my post.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,14:11)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 25 2010,02:03) Actually I do not use implication. My conclusions come from very clear unquestioned scripture. Well, you can't just use the scriptures you want to Martian.  I've showed you a couple “very clear unquestioned scriptures” during this debate, but you don't want to include them in your “cannon”. You mention the Son of Man scriptures.  So what?  Jesus IS the Son of Man.  In fact, I am on board with every single scripture you guys post.  It's just that NONE of them eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed. mike

None of them illiminate the theory that elephants can fly either. Does that mean they can?

[martian]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2010,07:04)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement : to contain potentially : to express indirectly Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time. For example this verse – For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it. Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man. Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it. Hi Martian, Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed? I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse! Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

What kind of silliness is this? You want me to show you a verse where something did not happen? Why do I not show you a verse that says that elephants don't fly. If I can't that must mean they can?

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