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[kenny]

Hello t8

after reading your last post, it seems you gotten your facts mixed up about me. you say it would be foolish to believe a 747 could assemble itself by pure chance! an argument used against people who deny the universe has a design to it. But if you remember my 3rd response I said "I don’t deny the universe may have a designer I don’t know enough about astronomy to make that judgment call, I just don’t believe YOUR god is the designer. You say I reject God? I can’t reject something that has not been presented to me, now I know that God is invesible, but you gotta realize, to me the invisible and the nonexistant look alike! Now if you remember on my 5th response I said "If I saw proof of the existence of God, I would believe." so the argument that I reject God does’nt fly. as far as you not calling me a fool, c’mon you know you did, you just used the bible to cover it up. if the slang term in the bible for an atheist is fool than it is still an insult to use it on people who are unaware that it is a slang term. Example, in England the term "Fag" is a slang term used for a cigaritte. in America the term ‘Fag" is an insulting word for homosexuals. if I am in America and I say "I am going outside to burn a fag" they will think I am insulting homosexuals. I know little about bible slang so you must use american terms when responding to me and in america fool has nothing to do with anyones religious opinions. if you dont believe me get a dictionary and look it up. and finally (I had to laugh at this one) you accused ME of insulting YOU! you say I called you a gullible idiot? you can’t be serious! I never called you such. I said Jessie Ventura called christians gullible idiots. and just as you don’t respect his insulting rants as fact, I don’t respect the bibles insulting rants (calling Atheists fools) as fact. Most of my friends are Christians and even though we don’t see eye to eye on religion, I have too much respect for their beliefs to insult them that way. Can you say the same? I think not!
and finally you say that you just wanted to connect me to a source of goodness and love! well…. I am perfectly happy with my life just the way it is, as a matter of fact I could probably show you a thing or two on how to improve your life if you would just give up that religious stuff!

peace

[kenny]

t8 the fact is, the english definition for the word fool has nothing to do with a persons opinions of religion. if the blble says it does, than the bible is wrong. I would not expect you to believe that because when the facts say one thing and the bible says another, you dismiss the facts and go along with the bible. You ask if I am not devoted to atheism why am I argueing the position? News Flash! it is possible to argue a position without being devoted to the position being arugued. You say Worship is simply that which you give most attention to? I give most of my attention to my family I guess you would conclude that I worship my family. let alone the fact that the dictionary defines worship as "The reverant love and devotion accorded a deity an idol or a sacrad object" which does not describe my family! again, the facts/dictionary say one thing, your religion says another, you dismiss the facts and go along with your religion. When you call me a fool, because that is how the bible describes my opinions that is about as constructive as me calling you a gullible idiot because Jessie Ventura (the exwrestler and governor) said all Christians are gullible idiots. You don’t respect what Jessie Ventura says, and I don’t respect what the bible says. so insulting me is not constructive unless it just makes you feel better which I believe is the case. You say Hitler and all the other Christians who have done horrible things in the past are not true christians? the dictionary says anybody who professes Jesus as Christ is a Christian. it has nothing to do with behavior it is all about belief. That would be like me saying Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin were not real atheist because, real atheist would not do those things

Peace

[kenny]

Hello t8

You started your responce by making 3 points
1. That my Atheism is a cause that I am consciously devoted to,
2. That the word God can be used to define anything that is worshipped idealized or followed
3. The Scripture word for atheist is fool

In my last response, I made it very clear when I said " it is NOT something I pursue with consciously devotion", My opinions on religion are not something I am devoted to, as I mentioned in a previous response, if I saw proof of the existance of God I would believe. But extrordaniary claims require extordinary evidence, and there is no evidence of the existance of God. I am not so closed minded that I would not accept proof if it were presented to me.
Your second point "The word God can be used to define anything that is worshipped idealized or followed" let me make this clear to you since you obviously have not been listening all this time, I WORSHIP NOTHING!!! I don’t idealize or follow anything either. can I make it any clearer than that? in your 3rd point "The scripture word for atheist is fool" It is obivious that your inability to reinforce your argument with FACTS angers you and you respond with insults. that is a shame becuse I thought you were better than that. The rest of what you say is under the assumption that the first 3 points are accurate. they are not, so everything else is flawed. There was one point that you made "even if I remain and atheist at the expense of logic ie that there is an infinite amount of knowledge compared to what I do know" You need to realize, it is not that which I don’t understand about the bible that bothers me, it is that which i DO understand! that is where I see flaws, that is why I disbelieve. On the second set of points, on the 3rd point you inplied that Adolph Hitler was an Atheist! it is well known that Hitler was a Catholic (a type of Christanity) in his book Mein Kampf Hitler said "Therefore I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creater. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the lords work" My guess is either you lack knowlege of Hitler, or you are trying to decieve those who read these responses. If you lack knowlege, may I suggest you get your facts straight before putting them on this web site, if you are trying to decieve…. well I just hope that is not the case.
If you are implying that the reason some Atheist have done evil in the past is because that is what Atheist do, that is one can of worms you don’t wanna open because we all know some of the atrocities christians have done in the past, as I mentioned, Hitler was a christian, in order to be in the origional Ku Klux Klan, you had to profess Christanity as part of the oath, Christanity was used to justify slavery in the USA. they said that by enslaving the people of Africa they can introduce them to christanity thus saving their souls.
A wise man once said, "Good men will always do good, and bad men will always do bad, inspite of religion. the religious man will just use his religion to justify his behavior weather it be good or bad" I believe there is a lot of truth to that! Hitler used his religion to justify genoside, the slave owners used religion to justify enslaving the people of Africa, and even YOU t8 make the point! when you chose to resort to that adolescent behavior of name calling, you used the bible to justify calling me a fool. you consistantly insult me then you just shrug your shoulders and say "well that is what the bible says" Actually a more accurate statement would be "Only a fool says in his heart, There is no God, the wise man says it to the world"!!!

Peace

Ken

[kenny]

Hello t8

I looked up the word religion in dictionary.com as you suggested and it did little to prove your point. as a matter of fact it proved MY point it said

Religion
1. a) Belief in and revernce for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creater and governer of the universe
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such a belief and worship
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order
3. A set of beliefs, values and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader
4. A cause, principle or activiity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion

I don’t know why you suggested I look up religion in dictionary.com because it still proves my point! that Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism is not a belief in a supernatural power, it is not a system grounded in belief and worship, it has nothing to do with a spiritual leader, & it is not something pursued with zeal and concientious devotion.
On the last message I posted, I made 3 points,
1. That Atheism is not a religion, which was proven by looking up religion in the dictionary,
2. That my reasons for not believing in God is based in logic, even though you may not agree with my logic (we can debate that one till the cows come home)
3. That there can be a million explanations for how the world turned out the way it is. My points still stand, and with you being a christian and all, I would’nt expect you to agree with them. You have your agenda (to save the world) and I can respect that. I guess one of the good things about living in America is that we can agree to disagree

Peace

Ken

[kenny]

Hello t8

I think you’ve got your facts mixed up. You say "belief in no God is still a belief and religion" I would suggest you pick up a dictionary and look up religion. in case you don’t have one, Webesters 3rd edition says "The personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worship devotion" in other words, if you don’t have a commitment to a God or higher power, it is not a religion. Atheism is not a religion, it is not a "personal or institutionalized system grounded in a belief" as you say, it is just an opinion. even though I will admit some people may take their atheistic opinions to the point of a belief, I believe you make the mistake that a lot of christians make when judging atheists. you assume  that we all think alike. the only thing atheist have in common is that we don’t believe in god. think of it this way, if you were to do a survey of men who don’t wear boots, you may interview one man who does’nt wear boots because they are uncomfortable so he only wears sandals. so you mistakingly assume all men who don’t wear boots, only wear sandals because boots hurt their feet! then the next guy you interview does’nt wear boots or sandals because the thinks they are ugly! he only wears loafers and tennis shoes. then the next guy does’nt wear boots because they are too heavy but he wears sandals, loafers, and tennis shoes. the only thing these men have in common is  they don’t wear boots, that’s it! they are not a part of a group, they don’t have the same reasons for not wearing boots, they don’t share the same politics, ideas, or opinions, they just don’t wear boots. You may have met an atheist who’s opinions are’nt based on logic, you may have met an atheist who believe scientist have all the answers,  who think men come from apes or that the universe has no design to it. but you can’t assume that about all atheists. when it comes to logic you must realize that what is logical to me may not be logical to you, I may think it is illogical to believe that a just god would create a #### knowing that he is going to send 95% of the people he created to it to be tourtured and burned forever. I may think it is illogical for this god to make man than refuse to communicate with each one of them in a way that they can understand, and then punish them for not getting the message. I may think it is illogical to believe a god would design man with the desire to do wrong and then punish him for doing what he was designed to do. these points may sound illogical to you but to me they sound like a perfect logical reason to disbelieve that your god exists.  You say that the Universe is proof that God exists? cmon! there can be a million explanations of how the universe turned out this way. and as far as a design, I never said that the stars, galaxies and planets have no design. I don’t know enough about astronmy to make that kind of judgment either way (I wonder what would a universe without design look like) I am just saying your God is not responsible.  Lets say if I got a seed, planted it, watered it, and let it grow into a tree. that tree will have a design to it. and it is fair to say that I am responsible for the existance of that tree. Does that make me God? should that tree bow down and worship me? of course not! I just planted a seed, and it evoloved into a tree. maybe some alien from a distance planet justed planted a seed and watched it grow! who knows! all I am just trying to say is there can be lots of explanations of how we got here, and just because I don’t know all the answers, does’nt mean I am obligated to accept yours without proof. besides, if everything must have a designer and creater, than God must have a designer and creater. if God does’nt need a designer or creater than neither does the universe.
 You also mentioned that God speaks to you and he showed you heaven and ####, Humm….. All I can say is that there are people in the mental institution who swear up and down that they are Jesus Christ, napolian and have seen all kinds of things. Now I am not saying you are crazy, but you gotta admit, it kinda sounds that way! besides I never met a mad man who knew he was mad! they all think they are genisious
 I’ve always wondered why when some christians discover that you are an atheist it is some kind of a shock to them. They seem to have a How Dare You attitude, almost as if it were a personal attack against them. they are all too quick to dismiss all the other religions out there as false, they will discredit the Mormon, or Muslim who swears up and down that they experience their Gods, but when somebody discredits theirs they are shocked! When you can understand how you can so easily dismiss the existance of all the other Gods out there, maybe then you can understand how I can dismiss the existance of yours

Peace

Ken

[kenny]

The fact still remains, the analogy of "No gold in China" is flawed, and because you say some people have chosen not to believe in God, that still makes them an atheist! that makes the title of your article flawed. As for myself, I did not choose not to believe in a God anymore than choosing not to believe in Santa, or the Easter Bunny. I simply have not seen any proof of God, so I lack belief which makes me an Atheist. If I were presented with proof of God, Santa, or the Easter Bunny, I would then believe in those things. but it will never happen because they don’t exist. As far as Atheism being a belief or religon, atheism is a lack of belief, a lack of religon, it is the oppisite of those things. that is like saying "if you choose not to play Football, Basketball, or Baseball, that lack of activity is a sport". if you don’t believe that broken mirrors, black cats, or cracks on the sidewalk bring bad luck, that lack of belief is a superstition! see how crazy that sounds? Atheism is NOT an assertion of belief, Theism is. Agnosticism is an assertion of belief as well, they believe that god MAY exist! I don’t agree with that anymore than I believe Santa may exist. I now have a question for you t8 Can you prove your God DOES exist? and if not does that make YOU the agnostic?

Peace

Ken

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