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[Jodi]

DT,

YOU: You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

ME: I explained this to you thoroughly with scriptural examples, but your response was to ignore it and change the subject. God didn’t change his mind, you misinterpret that passage as I spoke to before. Did not the punishment given to Eve, God then cast upon her daughters after her who had not committed the sin she committed? I bore 2 children so I know for a fact I received a punishment directly because of another’s sin. Do you not have any concept of what it’s like to be a farmer? Thorns and thistles had only surrounded Adam and Eve’s home I suppose you want to tell me? In the day of judgment each will be judged according to themselves, not according to their father, but to say that God’s punishments given since Adam and Eve didn’t directly also effect their children is absurd.

Further, Adam and Eve’s punishment was that they would die which meant they were given weak mortal flesh that could die one way or another, which that too was cast upon all of humanity, right? If you can acknowledge this truth then perhaps you could then see the truth in Jesus Christ.

We were given curses, including weak mortal flesh that could die, because of another’s sin, but yet it’s then outrageous to think that we could receive grace and immortal flesh that cannot die because of another’s righteousness? It’s outrageous to think that the lesson is that God is the source, that we need His Spirit to be made righteous?

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU:

In your previous post you quote Deut 18:18-19 and make the presumption it’s pointing to the Jesus; did you read 15-22, it’s speaking of future prophets God will be sending. In the same post you speak of a “second coming” and it being “astonishing news”, is that the way the Jewish people would have understood the writings of the prophets in Jesus’ day and would a messiah who comes twice have been the understanding prior to the Jesus?

ME: Yes, of course the passage speaks to future prophets and Jesus according to the NT is himself a prophet, so Deuteronomy 18 is rightfully applied to him also in the NT in the book of Acts. This is just getting really stupid.

He’s not just a prophet in the NT but the promised Messiah where listening to his words of God has a final consequence according to the OT and NT, where the Messiah thus holds an ultimate fulfillment to the passage in Deuteronomy. The prophet Moses set Israel free from slavery and the Messiah is a prophet that sets men free as well, free from sin and death through the promised Spirit.  There were many Jews that believed Jesus was the promised Messiah and then they thought he would become a king at that time but Jesus taught to them prophecy that him restoring Israel and becoming king would come later at a second coming. This is not against God’s word and plan from the OT it’s revealing more which is exactly what a prophet is to do. But your argument is that Jesus can’t be a prophet because apparently a prophet isn’t allowed to give prophecy, he’s only allowed to speak what has already been given.

YOU: Isa 61:1-2 how do you get the Jesus or a Messiah reference when Isaiah is the one who is speaking? I would highly recommend reading the entire chapter and not two verses. This passage is quoted or should I say misquoted in Luke 4:18-19 by the Jesus. The original passage in Isaiah says nothing about “recovering of sight to the blind”; but Luke adds this in and this isn’t corruption!?!?!?

ME: Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

This is Luke quoting Jesus’s words and you think it’s corruption for the Messiah to extend on what Isaiah said to include something he knew he was going to do through his anointing that he’d recover the sight of the blind, a specific act of how he’d take someone of a broken heart and make them well?  Or perhaps the very book Of Isaiah Jesus was reading from actually had that in it. But just listen to yourself, your saying it’s total corruption by Luke because he said that Jesus said he had been anointed of the Spirit and was sent to RESTORE THE EYES OF THE BLIND, which was both accomplished by Jesus literally and figuratively to which both took people of a broken heart and made them well as was prophesied.

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: I’m really not following your “gotcha moment”; it’s like you’re saying the Israelite’s aren’t Jewish. To me it appears you’re playing pretend, intentional ignorance. Are the Israelite’s of the Tanakh Jewish or not? Again, Paul tells us there isn’t a difference between Jew or Gentile; was Paul speaking of a single tribe – HARDLY! He was speaking of the nation of Israel; but you already know this. You go tell a Jew they aren’t Jewish because they don’t live in Israel; besides, the passages states “who is not your brother” and it’s their Jewishness that connects them, wherever they are. Again READ Ezra 9,10!!

ME: What are you talking about? I have said repeatedly that Jewish people are people of the tribe of Judah, to which is one tribe of the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL. This is not difficult, If you are of the tribe of Levi you are not Jewish/of the tribe of Judah, but both tribes of course are of Israel.

The NT specifically speaks to Israel which represents those of the twelve tribes, the word is found 73 times and as well the word Jews is in the NT, used 244 times. The people of Israel that were around when Jesus preached and when Paul and others preached were mostly all Jews, there were some of the tribe of Benjamin, but all other tribes were not around, as previously stated these tribes became considered as lost. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were Jewish sects who gave influence to the Jewish people, Christ came and called them vipers and hypocrites. We see the word Jew used so much in the NT because that was exactly the tribe of people that were being preached to. Not all of Israel are Jews but all Jews are of Israel, as said this should not be difficult, seems though as you are trying to say that at some point Jews came to be equated as representing all the people of Israel and not just the people of one tribe of Israel. 

Deuteronomy 17:15 is God telling Israel that their king needed to be of Israel, this does not at all say that the promised coming Messiah needed to be a Jew, it’s talking about kings first of all and the first two kings of Israel were not Jews, they were of the tribe of Benjamin. We are given that the Messiah was to be king over Israel, so according to this scripture he must be of Israel. As said, I am just wanting to hold you accountable for what you say a scripture says that it does not. If you want to call it as me trying to give a gotcha moment whatever, it’s just silly because Jesus’s mom according to the NT was a Jew, so it really doesn’t matter, it’s just the passage you used to support a requirement does not align with the requirement you gave.

Concerning Isaiah 7, as I posted to you before, I have no problem with God giving in the OT a prophecy to events soon to take place that also foreshadow a second fulfillment to occur even later to which holds more significance. Isaiah 7 is just one and these only go to show how intelligent and powerful our God is in how He planned everything out. Isaiah 7 speaks of a child born and whose name will be called Immanuel, meaning God with us/or with us is God and who is not more of an Immanuel than the child born of Isaiah 9, to which I say is Jesus the anointed of God’s Spirit of Isaiah 42 and 61.

Jesus was born of the Spirit without measure and by such he was able to follow all of God’s commands. God was able to perfect this man through His Spirit. The Spirit of God in this Son of Man is proof that righteousness and unrelenting faith in God can thus be accomplished in all men as what God can accomplish in one He can certainly accomplish in all. Where the Spirit is there is life and we see Jesus raised from the dead and promised to be a firstborn of many brethren.  DT, do you believe in self-righteousness or in the works of God’s Spirit? Did giving the law to Israel cause righteousness or did it reveal man’s weaknesses where sin abounded? God can forgive the worlds sins by one man, because the one man is proof that it actually takes God’s Spirit dwelling in you to be righteous. Don’t you see, forgiveness comes to all because no other had been given the Spirit without measure as he did and it is the Spirit that actually causes righteousness? We are not self-righteous we are bound to sin and death, only God with His Spirit is the source to righteousness and life. Our faith in God and hope is in that we too will receive God’s Spirit as that of Jesus Christ. This is not some wicked deception, it is truth. The purpose of Christ is that our faith and hope be in God, that as Jesus is so we shall be, and as Jesus is, is one who has been born of God’s Spirit. This is what Paul teaches, but to you he is wicked as well. You went from the darkness that is of mainstream Christianity to a new rabbit hole of darkness.

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day. Why do the Jews reject the Jesus as the Messiah; he never did what was prophesied and there is no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice.

ME: Just to pull what I said all together in my last posts that was in reply to your statement above.

You say he did nothing, does the NT say he did nothing? NO! He fulfilled Isaiah 61, having God’s Spirit come upon him, making him into the righteous servant, where he then went out and preached God’s word of salvation and God’s kingdom. Jesus, the righteous servant and a prophet, prophesied of the future, which was of his own death for the sins of others, a fulfillment of Isaiah 53, of his resurrection and of a second coming where he fulfills at that time giving judgment, destroying the wicked, giving the Spirit, restoring Israel and establishing world peace. The only way for your argument to work for you, “no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice”, is if you also argue that a prophets prophecy must have already been given and written, which then how does that work with you exactly?

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

Duet 17:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; — JESUS

The Messiah that you believe has not yet come, he is not going to speak God’s word giving prophecy, speaking new truths? According to you, the Messiah can only speak God’s word that has been already given otherwise he should be seen as a liar, a false Messiah. Make it make sense DT.

According to Isaiah 61 the Messiah is going to preach good tidings, he is going to speak to the coming day of vengeance of our God, he’s going to give prophecy of future events. When Jesus speaks prophecy, because that prophecy is not also in the OT, that makes him a liar and a false prophet? DT, how do you even believe one prophet to be true, how does this work for you exactly? Out of all the prophets you don’t think that the prophet whose also the promised Messiah might have some astonishing news to reveal? Like there is a second coming, where then the Day of the LORD is fulfilled and it will be at a time where people can see that the world is just like that in the days of Noah and is just like Sodom and Gomorrah. 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: The major question remains, is the Jesus is the true Messiah; if he is, then why didn’t he accomplish ALL that was spoken of the Messiah while he was here; since he didn’t accomplish all that was prophesied, how can he claim to be the Messiah? It’s a tough pill to swallow,

ME: You are speaking nonsense. You are taking your own disbelief and projecting it onto others. Do you think I relate to any sort of tough pill to swallow here, that’s ridiculous. TIME you speak of, you speak earthly, you are being very carnally minded. To God one day for Him is a thousand years for us. You have a problem with Jesus going to sit at God’s right hand to prepare the place for us to which God has planned? The Messiah is going to sit on David’s throne to rule the world and bring peace and destroy all the wicked, you have a problem with the Messiah being prepared by God to do so?

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: To say he will accomplish what was prophesied when he returns is improvable. Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day.

ME: Do nothing???????

Do we say he did nothing? We believe through God, according to God’s will, plan and by the power of His Spirit, that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53 for starters.

Are you listening to yourself? So thus it sounds like you ought not believe in any prophecy until it is fulfilled.

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

Yes, of course Jesus would need to meet all of the requirements, not just one which is why I provided a response to each of the requirements that you gave.

YOU: The reason the passage about the Messiah being Jewish is included, is because it’s a requirement; why would I leave it out?

ME: The passage was Duet 17:15 and it speaks nothing about a requirement of the Messiah needing to be Jewish. The passage requires that the kings over Israel needed to be of Israel.

I am wanting to hold you accountable for asserting a passage says something when it in fact absolutely does not.

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

Just a little recap.

We had been discussing Isaiah 53, where you specifically gave me points for me to respond to and instead of replying back to my direct counter points you completely ignored them and went with, “There is only one thing that matters in your response and it has to do with whether the Jesus is the true Messiah or not and every response that doesn’t resolve this is pointless.” So I should have just ignored your previous points and questions, got it, lol.

YOU:

For your reading enjoyment here is what I posted originally posted concerning the Jesus being the true Messiah:

He must be Jewish
“…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

ME: You say that Jesus does not meet the requirements of the Messiah and you give me the list of the requirements established from the OT. 

You later in another post from the one I provided above added that to be Jewish his mother needs to be Jewish. Jesus’s mother according to the NT was Jewish. By your own admission the first requirement you gave, Jesus indeed meets that criteria.

Regarding Deut 17:15, this is the specific verse you gave of proof that the OT requires the Messiah to be a Jew. If you would have said the requirement of the Messiah is that he be of Israel this would have made sense, but you didn’t and nothing in this passage says that the Messiah must specifically be a Jew.

Looks like you should have just left out your first requirement and the passage all together.

[Jodi]

Good Morning DT,

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The below directly tells us in what way does God forgive their iniquities, 

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Who is this righteous servant that fulfills God’s Covenant, where therein iniquities are forgiven? 

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house…9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof…keep reading the chapter and go onto chapter 43…:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

We are given-

There is a New Covenant

This Covenant includes God forgiving sins of the people and remembering them no more

God declares that a righteous servant is given for a Covenant of the people

A righteous servant dies for the forgiveness of the people’s sins, which thus this righteous servant is fulfilling the Covenant God promised of forgiving sins and remembering them no more.

Jesus is this righteous servant who died for the forgiveness of sins fulfilling part of God’s promised Covenant. Jesus also has been ordained to fulfill the other part of this Covenant, to which God had first fulfilled in Jesus. God puts His law in their inward parts, and writes them in their hearts and He will be their God, and they shall be His people. God does this through putting His Spirit within them, causing them to walk in all His ways. When Jesus returns he will judge the people and reward God’s faithful with the Spirit, completing the fulfillment of God’s Covenant.

DT, please explain how Jeremiah 31 in no way relates to Isaiah 53. Please explain how in no way is the righteous servant of Isaiah 42 not the same righteous servant of Isaiah 53. 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

ME: Our God gives mercy upon mankind otherwise, we’d all be brute beasts.

YOU: Aren’t we created in the image of God? If we ignore God’s natural law of the “knowledge of good an evil”, we can become wicked. To call us beasts, is a stretch

ME: Oh good, we are back to one of my favorite topics!

Man is likened to beasts throughout the OT, not only the NT so I am not sure why you are saying this is a stretch.

Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

Psalms 58:44 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 140:33 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders’ poison is under their lips. Selah.

Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

This seems to align well with, Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

This aligns with,

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Jeremiah 11:88 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

Jeremiah 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

Jeremiah 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Jeremiah 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Proverbs 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

Think about it for a minute, eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, the penalty was that they would die and to be carnally minded is death. Adam and Eve brought forth death because they were carnally minded. Peter was called by Jesus Satan, where Jesus rebuked him for he had in mind the things of men and not God, he too was being carnally minded. The carnal mind of man causes deceit, where a man’s tongue is thus like the poison of a serpent.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

Eccl 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

It takes God’s instruction and His Spirit living in us to become not carnally minded and become spiritually minded unto life and peace, otherwise we are eternally bound to the dust.

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: Me: “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Not sure if you know this but the nation of Israel was fractured into two kingdoms, the northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern (Judah). Please provide a NT passage that states the Jesus will gather the Israelite’s back to their land.

ME: Yes, I am quite aware of Israel being fractured into two kingdoms, what’s your point?

You say, “provide passage that states”, I thought we were past this. Just as everything said in the NT does not need to be found in the OT, everything spoken in the OT doesn’t need to be found in the NT.  Does everything said by Moses need to be said also by Isaiah in order for you to believe in Isaiah? Does everything said by Isaiah also need to have been spoken by Moses for you to believe in Moses? NO, what is needed is to have no contradictions.

What we are given in the NT does indeed align with the OT, having no contradiction, which I provided in my previous post,

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus would reign over the house of Jacob/Israel and Jesus would restore again the kingdom to Israel at a time that the Father has appointed. It’s not logical to you that in order to have a kingdom for Israel filled with the house of Israelites it would take the people of Israel to be present, which would mean that they would need to be gathered to Israel in order for that to occur?

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish and has nothing to do with tribal association. We can say the Jesus’ mother is Jewish, thus making him Jewish. The contention is his daddy, because the father is who determines tribal association ( Numbers 1:2). So being Jewish doesn’t mean your from the tribe of Judah. Guess again.

YOU: He must be Jewish
“…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

ME: Go do some research on the word Jew, you really think that the word Jew doesn’t come out from the word JU-DAH one from that tribe? Seems that you have gotten lost from tying this into your original point where the Messiah must be Jewish and you site Deut 17:15 as some sort of proof.

Deut 17:15 14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

God is speaking to the people of Israel, the 12 tribes. Where in this passage do you see that God is saying the Messiah must be Jewish by his mother? Please explain. I guess it would have been better if I had just focused first on the scripture you provided. I think it’s a good point to mention that after God spoke these words about Israel’s king, their first and second kings were of the tribe of Benjamin which further makes your assertion as to what this scripture is saying completely nuts.

You say, “guess again”, what on earth are you talking about? The fact of the matter is that I believe NT scripture that shows that Mary was of the tribe of JU-dah and thus indeed would be considered Jewish and you said, “Jewishness is represented by the fact the child’s mother is Jewish” and your original post said that Jesus must be a Jew. By your own words, Jesus then meets what you have laid out as an OT criteria.

YOU:  NO, I meant IMPROVABLE; because you cannot prove “in vitro” fertilization is what happened. This is a creation of your mind and is the most “logical” solution for you because we cannot have God impregnating mortal women because that’s what happened in the pagan religions of the day (Roman and Greek).

You go on to quote Is 7:14 as proof; yet, when one reads this chapter and the next, it has nothing to do with any messianic prophecy.

ME: You seem to have left out that my proof begins with how Matthew directly tells us that he is giving us the genetic line of Jesus to show how he is a genetic son of Abraham and David, where that genetic line that connects Jesus to Abraham and David, according to Matthew, is through Joseph, who was betrothed to Mary. Now if there were no further scriptures given about the conception of Jesus what is common sense? That Joseph and Mary would have come together so that Jesus could be exactly what the scripture say, a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph.  But it turns out that there is more scripture about Jesus’s conception, do those details change at all the truth given in the prior scriptures? NO. No matter how Jesus is conceived exactly, we are given that he is a genetic son of Abraham and David through Joseph.  You and others just want to flat out ignore this fact directly provided from Matthew, you because you want to discredit Jesus as the Messiah and others because they want to make Jesus into a false god and some sort of hybrid one of a kind being. According to Matthew God didn’t impregnate Mary like that of a pagan god of mythology and impregnate her with His seed to create another god, some sort of hybrid being. God performed a miracle, where without Joseph and Mary coming together, He made Jesus a bio son of Joseph through the power of His Spirit,  making him as Matthew tells us, a bio son of Abraham and David through Joseph.

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: What is relevant is whether or not the Jesus had any control over his death. According to aforementioned passages, the answer is no. Can God’s plans be thwarted, not according to Job 42:2; if the plan from creation was to have the Jesus die, how could he or anyone have changed it, how could the Jesus say he freely laid his life down when he had no control over the event?

ME: I hope you will read my last post. Jesus was not a puppet. Jesus went to the cross unto his death out of his love for mankind, out of his love and faith in God. This love and this faith came through the works of God’s Spirit in him. God’s Spirit is a more powerful influence over the mind of man than all other influences. Jesus received the Spirit not by measure and was able to overcome the world and all it’s influences, even the power of weak mortal flesh.  Think about this for a moment. Is not the mind of man gullible? Has not history shown that the mind of man can be easily manipulated and brainwashed to follow falsehoods? You think that the mind of man in all it’s foolishness and deceptions is a more powerful influence over the fruits of God’s Spirit? God knew Jesus would not fail because God knows that the power of His Spirit is able to influence a mind of man making it into that of a spiritual one. 

YOU: God chose the Israelite’s as a “treasured possession” out of ALL PEOPLE for what purpose – “to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” When did God change HIS mind and include all mankind as HIS “treasured possession”? Does that mean God has rejected all none Jews and are they forbidden from worshiping God? Absolutely NOT!! Still haven’t looked into Noahide (what God expects of the rest of the world) have you.

ME: Read what the OT and the NT teaches, seems like you are missing a lot, for Gentiles are included in God’s promises but in no way does this inclusion change God’s specific promises to Israel.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

49:66 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

The Gentiles are included in the promises of God of salvation and a new earth filled with peace according to the OT.

I have never read anything from the NT that tells us that Israel is no longer God’s “treasured possession”, that Israel no longer becomes His chosen people.

The NT aligns with the OT teaching us that Jesus will reign over David’s throne, that he will restore again the kingdom of Israel, that he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever. Just because Gentiles also receive salvation and are promised to live on an earth filled with peace, how do you turn and equate this to Israel no longer being God’s “treasured possession”? Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and thus of Israel and he is going to restore his people, God’s chosen people. All the people of all the tribes are gathered back to Israel and Jesus will sit on his father David’s throne in Jerusalem ruling over the restored kingdom of Israel, where all the earth is under this kingdom as well.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

YOU: Paul also changes “pitied” to “loved”; “love” wasn’t the name given.

ME: 

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

mercy- raw-kham‘

1. to love, love deeply, have mercy, be compassionate, have tender affection, have compassion.

Paul rendered the Hebrew word  using “love” 100% correctly. 

YOU: According to Paul the gentiles will also be call Gods’ people, not just the Jews

Paul says “I will call those who were not my people” is a reference to include the gentiles; but God says it’s the Northern Kingdom.

ME: 

Numbers 15:15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the LORD:

Isaiah 56
Salvation for Others
1 This is what the LORD says: “Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
2 Blessed is the one who does this— the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil.”
3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.”
4 For this is what the LORD says: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant—
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the  minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.”

God promising Gentiles/foreigners salvation and a place on earth in God’s peaceful kingdom not only is God giving them mercy/love but it is also God making them who were not His people His people.

“I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God”. According to you, other people, who were not God’s people, cannot possibly become God’s people, only people of the Northern kingdom can become God’s people, wow! This is your position to prove Paul is a liar? by making our God into a God who does not give mercy and extend making other people into His people. That’s just crazy.

Paul quoted Hosea because Paul knows that this passage is a true saying that applies to people who “are not God’s people”, not just to a very small minority of people who were not God’s people. For you to try and force that this true saying can ONLY apply to SOME people who are not God’s people, is absurd. Paul knows that this is a true saying unto “people who are not God’s people” because it directly aligns with God’s word from the prophet Isaiah regarding Gentiles and he also of course knows it’s God’s word because he himself was ordained of God to speak God’s word to the Gentiles.

 

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

I had just a moment so I decided to check in an see what was the latest on here. I saw your post to Gene and was going to respond to, “How can the Jesus “freely” lay down his life when it was preordained from the beginning of time for him to do so? What choice did he really have? Was he going to defy the spirit that was in him?”, but then saw that Gene responded as I would have.

I will say this, are we not creatures subjected to INFLUENCE and act upon those influences? 1. don’t our behaviors/actions come from the thoughts of our imaginations, just as scriptures tell us? 2. does our flesh not ask us to serve it in order to survive and is a strong influence over our actions, just as scriptures tell us? Are we also not influenced by others as well as circumstances that our out of our control? We are indeed creatures subjected to influence and our One True God the Father IS THE MOST POWERFUL INFLUENCER FAR ABOVE all things, so much so that which He wills comes to fruition, can never be held back. Our God gives mercy upon mankind otherwise, we’d all be brute beasts. Jesus overcame through God’s Spirit dwelling in him, it was a more powerful influence over him than all else and why our hope is in having God’s Spirit also lead us in all the ways we should go.

DT, what would you say could be considered the most powerful influence over us, outside of God’s power? The fear of death? Does not the fear of death have us all in bondage to serve the flesh in order to live? But what is the ultimate truth? We must serve God in order to obtain eternal life.  When Jesus went to the cross unto his death this power was destroyed and it demonstrated the power of influence of God’s Spirit upon him.  Jesus served God above his own will that is aroused by weak mortal flesh, even as he was mocked, spit on, beat and nailed to the cross. The Spirit in him was a calling to unrelenting faith to which he demonstrated for us all on the cross. We are told that the man Jesus was perfected by that which he suffered, it was an ultimate test of His faith in God and as said ultimate demonstration to the power of the works of God’s Spirit in man. Jesus believed that God would indeed raise him from the dead and make him a firstborn of many. Jesus’s reward was to no longer have a body that had to serve the flesh in order to survive, no longer have a body that could feel hunger and pain and could die, he was set free of that weak mortal flesh and was given an immortal body free to serve God alone. God’s punishment to Adam and Eve that thus fell upon all of mankind was necessary, necessary in order for mankind to come to the knowledge that our Creator is the Source, source to wisdom and truth, righteousness and life everlasting. In our weakness God could make His powers known.

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: I do agree commentators can and do inject some personal bias into their understanding; however, when there are multiple commentators who agree this passage is a reference to heavenly angels are we to ignore the teaching in favor of our personal religious understanding/bias?

ME: Your comment here is rather baffling to me! So it seems to me what you are saying is that one should not really bother studying scripture for themselves, as it would be error anyway if we reached alternative conclusions for we must not favor our personal understanding over that of what the majority says. But yet I also recall you saying that people can’t even agree on what the NT teaches. Then you also say in the same post, “One can verify what they have been told is truth or not…freewill.” DT, make yourself make sense, seems like within the same post you completely contradicted yourself.

Both the OT and NT warn of false prophets and false beliefs.  Multiple places in the NT it speaks on how the truth would be corrupted and was already being corrupted. Read the history of the forming of the Catholic Church to which main stream Christine doctrine was founded upon. Those who created the doctrine were pagan converts. Then study what the pagans believed and you might see how the “early church fathers” interpreted NT scripture through those previously held pagan beliefs, certainly not through the understanding of God from the OT or truths from the OT. Then research what those under Constantine did to those who opposed their doctrine, what they did to the Jews for Jesus that were in opposition. Further, what do we know about the Israelites, they constantly went after false gods and therein they took pagan ideas, where thus they took God’s truth and made it into lies creating their own doctrines, the book of Enoch is a prime example and the Pharisees with their morning hand washing ritual to cast out demons showed their corruption.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the messengers which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude is giving all examples of humans in the above passage and he is speaking to examples we can read of from the OT.

The Lord saved Israel out of Egypt but destroyed those afterward who did not believe in Him, we know that well. But what about these messengers that kept not their first estate? We read of them in Jeremiah 23 where it also mentions Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

I will speak to verse 9 in my next post.

 

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU: There is only one thing that matters in your response and it has to do with whether the Jesus is the true Messiah or not and every response that doesn’t resolve this is pointless. IS THE JESUS THE TRUE MESSIAH!?!?! This is the only question that matters! If the Jesus doesn’t fulfill one requirement of what is outlined in the Tanakh, can he be the true Messiah? Remember, I didn’t say this; God did thru HIS prophets!

ME: Wait, come again? 

Is Jesus the true Messiah, I say yes and that Isaiah 53 is speaking of Jesus. You say that is impossible because God commanded for children not to be sacrificed so God would never put His Son’s soul to death for the transgression of others.   I pointed out there is quite the difference between God commanding Israel not to murder their children in worship of false gods verses God putting to death one man for the transgressions of others where that man is raised shortly thereafter back to life. This is now pointless you say, well that is convenient for you! You also say that God would never inflict a person because of the sins of another person, so Jesus could never be put to death for the sins of others, but when I point out that the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin was given also to their children and their children’s children thus all of mankind, this is also now pointless?

and further, you won’t tell me who the “righteous servant” of Isaiah 53 is, nor can you explain how, “thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin” doesn’t actually equate to “thou shalt make his soul and offering for sin”.

How can you not see that this righteous servant of Isaiah 53 would be the Messiah of Isaiah 42 to whom God gives His Spirit to and calls to righteousness to fulfill His covenant and be for a light? How about Isaiah 49: 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Would salvation not begin with God forgiving transgressions?  

Let’s align this with Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah 31:34 has nothing to do with, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”

“He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin”

“because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Salvation has nothing to do with sins being forgiven? The righteous servant dying for the transgression of others had nothing to do with God forgiving those transgressions?

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

YOU:

He must be Jewish
“…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
“The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah; not some improvable, made up in vitro fertilization

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son
“And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)

ME: Jewish represents that you are of the tribe of Judah, they are one and the same.

Jesus is biologically Jewish/of the tribe of Judah from both his father and his mother and with his father being a son of Solomon Jesus also fulfills the right to be a king over David’s throne. I have recently stated my position again to you that Matthew 1, whether you believe is God’s word or not, Matthew is in fact telling us that Jesus is genetically a son of Solomon, David and Abraham THROUGH Joseph. This occurred by the power of the Holy Spirit upon Mary as Mary conceived before her and Joseph had come together. The miracle conception was for a SIGN and the sign was to identify a rightful heir to David’s throne involving a promise from God that a man from another tribe other than Judah would not sit on David’s throne.

You said, “not some improvable, made up in vitro fertilization”, I am assuming you meant “improbable” and of course with God, our all powerful Creator, this is actually a simple task, so in that you are completely false. 

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a SIGN; Behold, a virgin/almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

DT, how is it a SIGN at all, if “almah” is not representing a virgin, doesn’t the fact that it’s a SIGN tell you that this almah would assuredly thus be a virgin?

I am sure that you also want to say that Jesus doesn’t have the right anyway to be the promised king over David’s throne because Jeconiah is in his genealogy and he has a curse. Even though I believe the curse was lifted isn’t your position that God doesn’t place punishments to a Father onto his sons? But yet, this CURSE God made was directly upon a father’s sons because of the father’s sin.

YOU:

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

ME: the text says “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel”, have you not heard of the “lost tribes of Israel”? There are 12 tribes of Israel, Judah is only one of them, where are the rest? Those of the tribe of Judah we know that they dwell in Israel and are also dispersed throughout the nations, but where are all the people of the other 11 tribes? Regardless, God is going to have the Messiah gather together all the people of all the tribes to whom have been dispersed together. This occurs when Jesus Christ comes and sits on his father David’s throne.

YOU:

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

ME: 

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

There is nothing in this text that says the Messiah is to build a third temple.

We read in 2 Samuel 7 that it was David’s idea to build a temple, a temple for God, a dwelling place for the arch of the covenant. David thought about his house of Cedar and how the arch was behind curtains but he believed it deserved a temple. God’s response to David was to say that He has never asked for a temple in all the time that He dwelled with Israel He was walking with them and further He tells David that He has been with David wherever David has went. Scripture also tells us that God said a temple could be built but David could not build it for he shed too much blood. God promised David that his son would build Him a temple.

Acts 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet (Isaiah 66:1-2), 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God…22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

tabernacle, also spoken of in Ezekiel 37 means God’s dwelling place, God is everywhere and the place of His rest is to be overall the new heaven and earth, certainly his dwelling place/resting place is not in a temple made of man’s hands. God’s promise is that His dwelling place will be in us, His Spirit is to come and dwell within us. When Jesus Christ returns this is exactly what he is going to do, he is appointed to judge and give the Spirit to the faithful and then destroy the wicked. God’s promise is to be ALL IN ALL.

YOU:

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

ME: OT prophecy is that the Messiah will come and establish peace, which is exactly what Jesus is going to do when he comes. NT teaches that Jesus is going to return at a time our heavenly Father only knows and when our Messiah is sent THEN he will receive his kingship over David’s throne and establish God’s kingdom of peace.  Where on earth did you get the idea that people believe Jesus is ruling right now on earth that we should then see peace? Never heard such an outlandish idea lol. 

YOU: He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d

ME: Yes, NT scripture quotes Jeremiah 31, that “I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people” (Hebrews 8:10).  God’s Spirit will come to dwell in the people which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways WHEN Jesus Christ comes to be our king.

 

[Jodi]

Hi DT,

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The “father” in the above passage does not represent a bio dad, now does it?  This father would thus have seed which are not his bio children, right? These non bio children are spoken of in the below passage.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

YOU: Hasn’t God “called” all of mankind? Ezek 18:32 “I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

ME: DT, the promised Messiah of OT scripture is God’s most significant messenger, he’s God’s right hand, he’s ordained to fulfill God’s will concerning mankind where he will  judge and rule overall the people through God’s Spirit being begotten in him. He is the prophet raised up among brethren like that of Moses, where God said “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

God tells you that you must put your trust in His Son. The Son of God is your judge and if you do not hearken unto him you will be slain. 

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.  9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

God calls people to believe in His Son and God has required people to believe in the words that He has spoken through His Son. God titles His Son an Everlasting Father and a Prince of Peace, the Son’s children are those whom God called for the Son to be like a father over.

The Son said that we would be baptized/cleansed as he was and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of and that cup is God’s Spirit. Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom. Jesus is a man that was born of water and of the Spirit and he now sits at God’s right hand. Believing in Jesus is believing that he is a firstborn of many brethren and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. Jesus is a firstborn of God’s Spirit and the works of God’s Spirit is unto unrelenting faith in God, it is unto righteousness and eternal life. Jesus says that we will be as he is. Believing in the Son is to have faith and hope in God that what God accomplished in Jesus He will accomplish in us. This Son has been appointed as judge and king over God’s kingdom and you are required by God to put your trust in him and believe that the words that he speaks are given to him from God.

 

[Jodi]

Hi Gene,

You had said to DT, “Fact is, you or no human being has completely stop sinning,  we all “still” come short of that goal, why?  Because in order for us to completely stop sinning, something must be added to our existence.

Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what that something is,  God by his “Holy Spirit” must come to dwell in us all, or we can never stop sinning, and until that “fully” takes place no human will ever stop sinning .  Jesus “demonstrated ” , the “WAY”  we must be all truly be saved, and it’s not by our own human efforts, but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit abiding “IN” US.  That is what will cause us to overcome this world and its sins.  There is no other way, and Jesus “demonstrated” that fact to us all.”

Amen to that!

[Author]

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