Proverbs 30 does?!?!?

We’ve been over this passage and the answer is G-d is the only who has done all of these things; however the question is rhetorical and obviously doesn’t need and answer. Even Agur, who claims to be the dumbest of the dumb, knows this…and you don’t??!?

“Who has ascended into heaven, and then…[Read more]

Was it too much to read?

Soooooooo, you can’t prove the Jesus is The Messiah! I understand, I can’t make you see what you don’t want to see; I can only present it. The reality is, it’s up to you to make the choice and I can attest it’s a hard one…for months I kept what I was finding to myself. Also, you would spend less time lear…[Read more]

You keep saying “Prove Jesus is the Messiah” and then narrowing that demand to one point: “He has no biological father, therefore his lineage cannot be traced, therefore he cannot be the Messiah.”

It isn’t just a “single point” where the Jesus fails; this is the beginning point. If the Jesus cannot/does not pass this, he ISN’T The Mes…[Read more]

In NONE of what your wrote did you prove the Jesus is The Messiah! I wrote on how the Jesus couldn’t be The Messiah starting with the birth narrative and you respond with criticism of what the Tanakh says, calling what I wrote assumptions; except what would have been the understanding of procreation in the time of Moses? Keep r…[Read more]

Jesus did not have a biological father.

Then we have a problem! The word for descendant used in the passages concerning David’s throne is “zera”, which means to produce after one’s own kind – making it biological. Did you not read Num 1:2, 18, 2:2, 32; Ezra 2:59? How is tribal lineage determined going all the way back to Moses? You sai…[Read more]

I didn’t ask about messianic references, as we’ll most likely agree on a fair number of them; I asked to PROVE the Jesus IS the Messiah and to begin with the birth narrative.

Who is the Jesus’ biological father and does this fit with what G-d said concerning tribal lineage and sons being counted with their fathers house (Num 1:2, 18,…[Read more]

Prove the Jesus is the Messiah! If that cannot be established, everything thing we are talking about is a waste of time. If the Jesus isn’t the Messiah, who cares what the unknown writer of Hebrews says or claims the Jesus is, or how it aligns or doesn’t align with the Tanakh, or if it fits a Messianic prophecy or not.

This takes us…[Read more]

Point 1. I don’t disagree with at all; upon further study, Davidic kingship can be applied to mean Messianic. Now we roll back to my original question, is the Jesus the true Messiah and can this be applied to him.

Point 2. I agree with what you wrote, you articulated it better than I did; the main idea of what I said is that this c…[Read more]

I can’t believe I allowed you suck me into this rabbit hole and away from what was originally said, stop wasting time; does Hebrews chapter one claim all that is quoted from the Tanakh is applied to the Jesus or not? If yes, then explain and support it with the Tanakh, not with the writings and musing of man; if no, then rip the b…[Read more]

In response to post 948112

No, I’m reading the words written and the words written, don’t match…can’t have the 60+ different interpretations in front of me at all times. I’m comparing your translation of choice (NASB) to the Jewish Study Bible. If you need to justify your belief by using a translation that has fallen into obscuri…[Read more]

Desire truth. Psalm 45:7 did not call Jesus Elohim, It stated that he has an Elohim( God)

“You love justice and hate evil. For this reason God, your God has anointed you with the oil of joy, elevating you above your companions.”

Who is the “you” that is being anointed? The Jesus??? If so, you’re going have to tell me when the Jesus is…[Read more]

In response to post 948115, would you like some cheese with your whine?

When you answer every question I ask, then you’ll have grounds to stand on to lecture me! Besides, does reading and comprehension fail you? I originally stated “I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it.” What part of that do you N…[Read more]

I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it. I will say this in response to what you wrote, in none of your response did you address the core issue; nothing written in Hebrews chapter one is about the Jesus! It’s a twisting of the Hebrew scripture to fit the Jesus.

When have you looked into the Jewish…[Read more]

You understand Psalm 102 perfectly; why are you corrupting the meaning of it by applying it to the Jesus? It seems you are using the Hebrews 1:10-12 passage to claim G-d of the Tanakh and the Jesus of the NT are the same. To unpack what is being said in this chapter one needs to begin in verse 5, where this dialog begins? G-d is…[Read more]

Wow what an intellectual response; you have made me more aware of who the jesus is…loads of sarcasm!

I explained the passage, how come you can’t give your thoughts on it? Repeating the words of the passages DOES NOT EXPLAIN HOW THE PASSAGE IS A REFERENCE TO THE jESUS!!!! How do you NOT understand that?!? Why does the “christian” h…[Read more]

Not Proverbs 30…AGAIN!!!

Have you not read the passage with comprehension? Are we really using “pointy fingers” without explaining what you’re talking about?!!!?

Reading this passage we start with Agur speaking with two others and basically calls himself stupid. He then asks them four rhetorical questions; who has gone to heaven and…[Read more]

I guess you kind of answered the question of who or what will be rolled up; but who or what is the “they”? If it’s simply heaven and earth as the Psalm says, what is the writer of Hebrews getting at? The Psalm is speaking of G-d lasting longer than HIS creation as HE is eternal AND what does this have to do with the Jesus?

You didn’t answer the question; who or what will be folded up like a garment and be changed?

How can YHWY be both the Father and the son (aka lord)? Keith is onto something…

The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.
Amazing!

The Jesus is G-d of…[Read more]

Its called justice– A perfect mortal man sinned and lost a good standing with God for all his descendants.

Adam was punished for his sin, but did G-d reject him for it? NO!!

Justice = A perfect mortal man lived a sinless existence, yet paid in full the wages of sin he did not owe= the ransom sacrifice.

Are you saying the Jesus lived a…[Read more]

Will any of this be forced on anyone? Will people be arrested and thrown in jail if they disagree will this bill?

Besides our national motto IS “In G-d We Trust.” Are you saying “We the People” shouldn’t be placing our trust in G-d? Shouldn’t we have this on display to remind everyone where our trust should be? Oh wait, it’s printed on…[Read more]

The Old Testament does not explicitly say the Messiah comes twice.

Absolutely, so why do you believe the Jesus will come twice?

But there appears to be two phases in the prophecies. A suffering and rejection, then later glory and kingship.

“Suffering and rejection” of whom; to be later awarded “glory and kingship”? The sufferi…[Read more]

They listened to Law( but added to many burdens along with those laws) their hearts were haughty, not humble as should have been.

What examples do you have of them adding to the law; Moses warned of adding or taking away from the law (Deut 4:2). There hearts were “haughty” and not “humble”, where do we read this?

Jesus said the Israelite spiritual leaders father was the devil. It has not changed as long as they reject the Messiah.

Why did the religious leaders reject the Jesus?

Where we left of I asked if you could provide a passage that says the innocent can take the responsibility of the guilty. I also asked to provide a passage where G-d says he was sending someone to take on the sins mankind and be a moderator on their behalf (G-d only spoke in the Tanakh, so it has to be found there and not in the NT). Have…[Read more]

Everything you posted is from a christian perspective; what about the Jewish? Again, it is their scripture; wouldn’t they be the authority on what it says?

WOW! Where do I begin with this salad bar of christianity?

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

And the Tanakh DOESN’T say the Messiah was to come twice; however, your response will be, “but it doesn’t say he wo…[Read more]

1. Isaiah 53

Who is speaking where in this soliloquy? One must begin reading at the end of chapter 52, this is where this last “servant song” begins (why was it cut where it was…hmmm). Who is the servant (begin reading in chapter 41)? It’s not the Jesus!! Verse 10 is a tricky one to apply to the Jesus; unless of course one belie…[Read more]

Proverbs 8 is poetry; quit making it what it isn’t. It’s wisdom personified, given human like qualities (calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth”), and that’s it! Of course wisdom was there “with” G-d before creation and “saw” everything come to be; wisdom IS G-d and not something separate from HIM…[Read more]

Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

You are absolutely 100% correct that the Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty…[Read more]

Point 1

Sefaria

Biblehub

The Sefaria link gives the definition of: “to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”; does it say create is one of its meanings??

Clicking the Biblehub link scroll to section 1, sub a. What does that say; “of God as originating, creating” and look, does it say Prov 8:22?!?!!? Are you done beating the dead ho…[Read more]

Translations are also becoming an issue; which one are we using or is this the “battle of the translations and mine is more correct than yours”? I use a Jewish to English translation, wanting to stay as close to the original writings as possible; what do you use, is it a translation of a translation?

One of the scriptures I reference…[Read more]

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that someone was born of God before creation and was with God.

The major problem with what you wrote is “someone was born of God before creation”; have no idea where you are getting that from any translation. Almost every translation I have looked at (38 on BibleHub) hav…[Read more]

Did you actually read the Proverb? In verse 3 it says “she cries out:” and what is she proclaiming? EVERYTHING AFTER THAT!! Grammar is your friend. Don’t forget to look out for those pesky quotation marks as she is continuing to “cry out.”

Guess again!

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A bir…

[Read more]

Now begin reading from verse one; who is speaking throughout the entire chapter? Are you paying attention to the quotation marks? Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote on this chapter a few posts back.

Also, why are you starting toward the end of the chapter? I’ll ask again, do you begin reading a novel in the middle? If not, wh…[Read more]

Once again, what you are sighting is “polluted”; it is not based in the Tanakh. I do not base anything on the interpretive minds of man; to site Philo as an authoritative source falls flat; he was a GREEK PHILOSOPHER who happened to be Jewish…big whoop! To site this Jew or that Jew because they believed this or that, is it true Jud…[Read more]

We’re going in circles.

Philo was a Jewish Greek philosopher (Hellenized Jew) and if that is your proof for wisdom being divine and the creator of the world, you need to find another source as his perspective is from Greek philosophy and NOT Judaism.

You then site a book (Sirach) that is not in any biblical translation as p…[Read more]

Do you understand how grammar works? Quotation marks signifies speech and that speech is attached to the one who is speaking; can you explain why suddenly in the middle of the chapter there is a paragraph that shifts away from the original speaker to point to another in meaning and context?

Why did you ignore everything else written…[Read more]

That’s an interesting interpretation of Prov 8:22-31; except there is more to this chapter than nine verses. Does believing something make it truth or do you believe what you believe because it fits your religious beliefs?

To understand these nine verses, one MUST start at the beginning of the chapter. Do you start in the middle of a…[Read more]

What is this being, according to your understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures?

There’s your misunderstanding, wisdom is not a “being”; wisdom is a characteristic. Wisdom is a gift from G-d given to mankind before G-d created everything, as Solomon writes. Wisdom in this chapter is personified and given man like qualities; does this…[Read more]

Please explain the point you’re trying to make concerning Proverbs 8. Make a statement or ask the question.

Please don’t try to psychoanalyze me…it won’t end well 🙂

The “crux” has nothing to do with creation (although what I understand today is opposite of chrisitanity); the “crux” is the christian church lied to me for 40 years and I have only recently come to realize it. My journey started with asking my pastor questions to the poin…[Read more]

Your second set of “if you can’t prove the opposite, your wrong and I’m right” childish arguments.

Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?

II Sam 7:12 and I Chron 28:7 are the two passages I already gave you; unless you don’t understand the “birds and the bees.” Every person up to Solomon was c…[Read more]

Your response is bewildering! You can’t support what you believe so you’re going to use reverse arguments to support it; because to doesn’t say it’s not there, it is?!??? A pastor tried this on me once; we’re adults, not grade-schoolers on a playground. Either you can support what you believe or you can’t; if you can’t, why do you…[Read more]

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

OBVIOUSLY!!!! Jecohiah had his kingship removed and the line of kings ended. Read Hosea 3:4-5 where G-d tells Israel they would be without a king until the end of days (that’s a good one for a lat…[Read more]

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure.

How did I know you were going to say it’s a riddle! Why do you believe it’s a riddle? What if there isn’t anything mysterious about the passage at all and it’s just Solomon using wisdom to express the power of G-d that no man possesses, no matter the level of power o…[Read more]

You didn’t answer this question:

So what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Who’s dynasty will be made permanent and who made the promise?

1. “God sent His Son” — Tanakh foundation

The Tanakh repeatedly speaks of a divine figure sent by God who is distinct from God yet shares His nature.

– Prov 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you know?”

Explain how Prov 30:4 is a reference for God sending His Son; and how the Jesus is shown to be “a divine figur…[Read more]

My apologizes, I said things that you weren’t privy to in the past as you weren’t apart of those conversations. Most everything you just stated I have commented on. The only personal thing I asked was is it fear or stubbornness that keeps you where you are; nothing more, nothing less. If you feel this is a personal attack, it is not…[Read more]

God the Father sent His only begotten Son into the world as a bond servant, fully man while still remaining eternally divine, as the promised Messiah. Born of the seed of Abraham through Mary who married Joseph. The Messiah is sitting at the right hand of the Father who will put all His enemies under His feet.

You didn’t answer, is i…[Read more]