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[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2010,22:36)

Hi Mr. B Fun, What do you make of Isaiah 61:1?  It starts, “Ruwach Adonai YHVH is upon me……”   Do you read that as “Spirit Lord Jehovah is upon me…..”?   Would it help if you knew that in Like 4:18, Jesus read those words from a scroll in a synagogue as, “The Spirit OF the Lord is upon me…….”? I've showed you that man is made in the “demooth Elohim”, which literally says “likeness God”.  (Gen 5:1)  You have no problem adding the “OF” in that phrase to make it say “Likeness OF God”, so what's the hangup with the word “Ruwach”? The LXX and the NT both confirm it means “Spirit OF Elohim”, not “Spirit Elohim”. One point at a time David.  If you have a point in particular you want me to answer so this is not a one-sided affair, please post just that one point……not fifty at a time. mike

Mike,

No problem with “adding” “of”.  It was added by translators for Greek as you pointed out but, as you know the “of” doesn't exist.

So the Ruwach of Elohim is good in Gen 1:2.  Then the same is applied in Gen 2:7 the YHWH of Elohim.

Still doesn't change that these are the two essences of the ONE Elohim, does it?

By the way LXX and NT  would never have Spirit Elohim they would have pneuma theos.

[davidbfun]

Hi Mike,

How about YHWH being the name of YHWH?

[davidbfun]

SF,

Technically SF is right…..Jesus was not “created” he was “pro-created”.

That is why the terms “firstborn”, only “begotten” are used.

The word “son” should've been a tip-off that Jesus is not God…who is the Father.

We know that Adam was “created” because YHWH Elohim formed him out of dust. We know that angels are called sons of God and that we are adopted sons of God. Jesus calls us brothers and not his sons.

Therefore, Jesus being the only begotten son is unique. And the word “son” says it all….he is not God whom he comes from and has a beginning point in time whereas God has no beginning.

People who care to deceive you and wish to portray him as God want you to break the first commandment and have another god in front of God. If you believe in Jesus as God, you don't have the same God and son of God as depicted in the Bible and are in the same vein as the Koran's god…who has no son at all. Anytime Jesus is placed as “God” it is a “false god” and not the same as Jesus claimed to be. Believe Jesus and the Bible. Deceivers, like Satan, used God's personal words and quoted the Bible, too.

Jesus' own words tells us who HE thinks he is….

Luk 22:70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”

If Jesus was God, why didn't the Jews know about him? The Jews are looking for a Savior FROM God.

If Jesus wasn't “pro-created” then how did he come about into existence?

Col 1 talks about Jesus being before creation to whom he is firstborn over, as well as being preeminent in all things.

People who want to make Jesus, God, want to throw out this verse and anything else that shows Jesus as a “son”.

The truth here is simple: either Jesus is created/pro-created or Jesus is God….and you have to choose which one you believe in. Jesus, son OF God. Or Jesus, God the Son.

[davidbfun]

Mike,

How do you account for Ruwach Elohim? Is Ruwach a separate entity as displayed in Genesis 1:2? Or do you place Ruwach Elohim inside of YHWH Elohim, who is the other separate entity of Elohim?

Why the identification of the 3 entities: Elohim, YHWH and Ruwach?

If YHWH is the “only” God, why start out God's book with a generic “title” as you claim Elohim to be?

Wouldn't it been more correct to say, “In the beginning YHWH created……” and “YHWH said….”

Unless of course, Elohim is a name and Elohim did the creating and talking?

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 17 2010,22:07)

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 17 2010,08:57) I see YHWH Elohim as one of the two essences of Elohim with the other Ruwach Elohim. Hi David, Well then you're “seeing” it wrong.  YHVH is the NAME OF GOD.  Elohim simply means “GOD”.  So when it says YHVH Elohim or Elohim YHVH, it just means Jehovah God or God Jehovah. I have showed you the scripture where Elohim told Moses His NAME was YHVH.  Who do you suppose the “male essence” of Elohim was before they knew of YHVH Elohim?  Because Abraham, Issac and Jacob never knew Elohim by His NAME.  There was no mention of “YHVH Elohim” until Moses learned of Elohim's personal NAME.  Do you suppose that in the days of Abraham, Elohim only had a “female essence”? peace and love, mike

Actually Mike, the name given in Ex 3:15 is YHWH Elohim.  The description of “I AM THAT I AM” was given in Ex 3:14.  Or as I usually put it, “I EXIST”, because it is a description of “God”.

As I said before, I don't have a problem with YHWH Elohim or YHWH being the male essence's name, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

And YHWH Elohim has physically been in existence with humans since Gen 2:7 when he physically formed Adam with His own hands and physically blew into Adam's nostrils.

Gen 2:7   And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed  into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.  

Gen 2:8 ¶ And the LORD God planted  a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD (YHWH) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 12:7   And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.  

Gen 12:8 Then he proceeded from there to the mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; and there he built an altar to the LORD and called upon the name of the LORD. (literally it says, “called upon name YHWH”….not “of the LORD”)

Genesis 1 Elohim says….and then it happens. Beginning in Genesis 2 we see YHWH Elohim doing the work physically and has a physical presence.

You also tend to overlook the workings of Ruwach Elohim which the Bible says is the “power” of Elohim. Thus, after Elohim “spoke” Ruwach did the action in Genesis 1. In Genesis 2 you don't have anything “spoken”, you have YHWH Elohim performing. So Ruwach Elohim performed the “big” stuff while YHWH did the “little” stuff. But then again as part of Elohim, he also assisted in the “big” stuff by definition of being a part of Elohim.

Again, Elohim is the Name of the entity that has the two essences. YHWH is the Name of the male essence entity. Ruwach is the Name of the female essence entity. When you try to eliminate the names of each and insert the generic word “God” all that can do is to lead to confusion…..which you keep wanting to do…and which I want to avoid.

Elohim created the heavens and the earth. YHWH Elohim and Ruwach Elohim are part of Elohim and therefore, they took part and are the Creators.

Logically, since YHWH has a physical body and we read that Elohim “said” I would place the “talking” being done by YHWH. And since Ruwach is the “power” of Elohim I place the performance of the action by Ruwach.

As Simply Forgiven posted, no where can we see the son being mentioned in the Old Testament in the process of creation and the only time we are privy to that information is in the New Testament. So HOW Elohim created everything THRU His son is a mystery, and not definitive.

Since in Exodus 3:15 we see that YHWH Elohim is the “Name” attributed to the male essence and that was His name in Genesis 2, it would also be logical to attribute Ruwach Elohim as the name of the female essence written about in Gen 1:2.

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2010,22:46)

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 11 2010,05:51) Hi Mike, Elohim is the “one” who is doing the creating in Gen 1:1…which you agreed to initially.  Now it seems you are changing your mind because you are changing to another topic “YHWH”. Hi David, Yes, Elohim does the creating in Gen 1:1 and everywhere else in the Bible.   David, one simple question for you before we move forward: Do you understand the Elohim is the Hebrew word for God and that our God has a name and it is YHVH? mike

Hi Mike,

I understand what you are saying. I think that you don't understand me, and that's ok.

I see YHWH Elohim as one of the two essences of Elohim with the other Ruwach Elohim. These TWO comprise the ONE God, Elohim.

I accept Elohim as the “NAME” for “God” with the TWO essences. I accept YHWH as the name for the male essence of Elohim.

I believe that Elohim did the creating but that also includes both YHWH and Ruwach as participating in the creation process.

The problem with trying to identify Elohim as “God”, later on you will try to replace or transition YHWH as being “God”, too….and eliminate Elohim as the entity with the two essences or make YHWH equal to Elohim, which to me, they are not.

And since I believe that YHWH is God and will not deny it, we will end up going round and round.

Or like in math, Elohim is the whole and YHWH is a subset of the whole. Replacing the generic word “God” for Elohim and then doing the same for YHWH would be logical suicide, and would incorrectly display the two entities.

It would be the same difference by exchanging Ruwach for the word “God”. Ruwach and YHWH are not the same and I would be amiss to agree to that. However, they both are “God” in themselves….as subsets to the “whole” God.

[davidbfun]

Mike,

To tell you the truth, all I was hoping from this debate is that you could see that Elohim consists of two essences YHWH and Ruwach…and that they are part OF Elohim.

I get that information from the connection of the word Elohim to their “essence's “Names””……”Ruwach” Elohim and “YHWH” Elohim.

These essences are separate individuals and have separate functions/duties that they perform.

[davidbfun]

Mike,

I asked this but you haven't addressed it:

You asked me how the Spirit was “female” because it didn't say so in the sentence….

ME: the word “Spirit” in Hebrew in this sentence is “ruwach”. Following this to Strong's Lexicon the number is H7307 and spirit is a feminine noun.

If you don't like using “female” I could use “feminine”, just as YHWH is “masculine” and not “male” by definition. Was this your point? But hopefully we can utilize the two interchangeably, no?

Regardless, my point is that Spirit being feminine, cannot be YHWH who is masculine.

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,20:35)

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:09) Man (humankind) is male and female, in the image of Elohim, no? Hi David, What did God create in His image?  Human beings.  He chose for some of these human beings to be male, and others female.  This is the way God chose for us to be in order to procreate offspring. You are lumping male and female together to insinuate that God is male/female.  And you further error IMO by your understanding of the word “image”.  I don't see “image” as saying God has two legs, or a hairy chest, or child bearing hips.  I understand “image” to mean that we are able to love, show mercy to those who are weaker, compute vast amounts of info with our brains, etc. Think about this:  I am created in God's image.  I am ONLY male, not some mix of male/female.  Do you think that only the “male essence” of God created me, and the “female essence” of God created Kathi in “Her” image? mike

Mike,

Image is not the issue. I am not trying to explain what the image of Elohim is, all I am trying to do is show that God consists of “male and female” regardless of how you want to debate/interpret the word “image”.

As for the rest of your statement saying that God chose for some of these human beings to be male, etc is not true. YHWH Elohim formed only ONE male, “Adam” and then took from Adam's “side/rib” and formed woman.

Again, the point isn't what Elohim's image is, only that Elohim consists of “male and female”.

Without having to define “image”….Mathematically it is:

Elohim's image = male, female

Note- It isn't saying YHWH's image but Elohim's image.

YHWH is one part of Elohim's image. Ruwach is the other part of Elohim's image.

Elohim's image = YHWH, Ruwach

By using the generic word “God” all that does is cause confusion within this step by step process.

I haven't discussed God's name but you have already jumped there and we haven't finished this part showing Elohim and the two parts of Elohim: Ruwach Elohim (Gen 1:2) and YHWH Elohim (Gen 2:4).

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2010,21:07)

Quote (davidbfun @ Sep. 10 2010,02:40) Summary: Gen 1:1 shows Elohim as being “God”. Gen 1:2 shows Ruwach Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim. Gen 1:1 doesn't “show” Elohim as being “God” David.  “God” is the English word FOR the Hebrew word “Elohim”.  “Elohim” MEANS “God”.  We have ONE God…..His NAME is YHVH. ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, Do you disagree with this passage David?  I noticed you didn't respond to it.   And “Ruwach Elohim” is God's Spirit.  If you are saying we shouldn't add the “OF” because the “OF” isn't in the Hebrew, then why do you think the Greek scripture writers never spoke of a “Spirit God”, but instead a “Spirit OF God”? mike

Hi Mike,

Elohim is the “one” who is doing the creating in Gen 1:1…which you agreed to initially.  Now it seems you are changing your mind because you are changing to another topic “YHWH”.

To me Elohim means Elohim and I thought I asked not to translate the words for Elohim, Ruwach, or YHWH.  But right off the bat you jump to “breath” and “God” for these two words and want to jump to calling God YHWH.

As for your Greek writers they don't have YHWH either, so now YHWH doesn't exist.  Also for the Greek writers “spirit” is an “it” which precludes “it” from being God the Father, thank you.

From all the things I asked that we don't do…is exactly what you did.  

YHWH has been translated “LORD”, are you going to stick with translators or jump to whatever you want?  

Ruwach Elohim is an individual just as YHWH Elohim is.  We know that by the HEBREW (not Greek) that is written.  

You accept YHWH Elohim as it is written but negate Ruwach Elohim as it is written.  Thus, without consistency on your part, which you are willfully doing, discussing the other Scriptures that you care to jump to are pointless.  And since we are talking about Hebrew I don't have a clue why you are trying to bring up Greek, or English.

All I have tried to show is that there are 3 distinct “identities/entities” in the book of Genesis.  Elohim, Ruwach Elohim, and YHWH Elohim.

Other than Gen 1:2 all the talking and action is done by Elohim.  And according to you, Elohim is a generic god because Elohim really isn't God, YHWH is God.

And you continue to argue about “of”.  I told you that if YOU wanted to insert the “of” in front of Elohim I would agree but we'd have to do the same for the other “person”…so I'll continue on in this vein.

Ruwach Elohim = Spirit of God
YHWH Elohim = Lord of God

Maybe in this view you can see that Elohim (God) is the subject and “owner” of the two objects Lord and Spirit.

Perhaps you can't see what you are doing but you are saying that Ruwach is OF Elohim, but then you say that YHWH IS Elohim.  That is why I asked not to do any translations for these three words Ruwach, YHWH, or Elohim.

[davidbfun]

To address another concern in a post elsewhere:

Elohim is the individual entity with the two essences, thus the plural majestic identifying Elohim (Supreme Being) as singular. Pronoun used for Elohim is “He”.

You are correct; YHWH or YHWH Elohim is the male essence of Elohim and would be addressed as “He”.

Many verses talk about YHWH or YHWH Elohim and have follow up sentences talking about Him and we can see the pronouns HE and HIS to concur with what you are saying.

[davidbfun]

Mike,

I agree, we will discuss the topic in our debate section….see ya there.

[davidbfun]

Summary:

Gen 1:1 shows Elohim as being “God”.
Gen 1:2 shows Ruwach Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim.
Gen 2:4 shows YHWH Elohim, as a separate entity distinct from Elohim, or Ruwach Elohim.
Gen 1:27 shows Elohim's image; male and female.

[davidbfun]

#4-  YOU: Gen 2:4 NWT This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

First, this scripture doesn't even say God is a “HE”, but many other ones do.  Second, Jehovah is the personal name of God, not an “essence of Elohim”.

ME:  The point I am trying to make here is that Elohim in Gen 1:1 who created…. is not “exactly” the same “person” as YHWH Elohim or Ruwach Elohim….there is a difference, which I will try to show in my next post, ok?

I will agree with you that YHWH Elohim in Gen 2:4, his name is YHWH. Also, I think there is sufficient information that we can agree that YHWH is “male” “masculine” “He” without any problems from me.

Also, the points in Gen 1:2 and Gen 2:4 is that there are TWO distinct separate and “individuals” being talked about:  Ruwach Elohim and YHWH Elohim.  

In order to avoid any debates on the English word “spirit” it may be best to change over and leave the individuals transliterated from Hebrew to English only, which would curb the debate on what each “essence” (Spirit & LORD) is, ok? Or if you feel comfortable I could use Spirit Elohim, as long as you don't want to debate what “spirit” is. That is not the purpose of this foundation thread, ok?

[davidbfun]

#3- YOU: Genesis 1:2 NIV Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Where does this scripture say God's Spirit is a female?

ME: the word “Spirit” in Hebrew in this sentence is “ruwach”. Following this to Strong's Lexicon the number is H7307 and spirit is a feminine noun.

If you don't like using “female” I could use “feminine”, just as YHWH is “masculine” and not “male” by definition. Was this your point? But hopefully we can utilize the two interchangeably, no?

Regardless, my point is that Spirit being feminine, cannot be YHWH who is masculine.

[davidbfun]

Hello Mike,  Thanks for responding.

YOU: Genesis 1:27 NET God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.
Where exactly does it say Elohim's image is “male and female” here?

ME: The word “God” is Elohim in Hebrew in this sentence, so I will rewrite it replacing God with Elohim, ok?
Genesis 1:27 NET  Elohim created humankind in his own image, in the image of Elohim he created them, MALE and FEMALE he created them.

Man (humankind) is male and female, in the image of Elohim, no?

[davidbfun]

Dennison,

When you begin with the OT you have a solid foundation.

However, when people don't want to believe the OT, and the Hebrew is changed to fit whatever doctrine a person desires, they will do the same when it comes to Greek.

WITHIN Spirit Elohim is “the Spirit of YHWH” (IS 11:2). Since Spirit YHWH is part of Spirit Elohim you need to correctly apply whom the verse is addressing….Spirit YHWH (not YHWH). Look how Spirit is distinctly separate from YHWH in the following verse:

1Cr 2:11(b) Even so the thoughts of God (YHWH) no one knows except Spirit YHWH.

As Ed pointed out there is no word for “of” in Greek or Hebrew and is inserted by translators, therefore I took it out.

Jesus, prior to be born thru Mary, was the son of God, the firstborn of all creation. When he emptied his heavenly form he took on a humanly form and was known by both distinctions: Son of God and Son of Man.

[davidbfun]

All,

To those that think that Spirit Elohim is a part of YHWH how could anyone commit the “unpardonable” sin? Your way, they would be sinning against YHWH but this Scripture isn't saying that…it is saying that you can blasphemy/sin against Spirit (Elohim)….who is a separate and distinct “person” than YHWH.

Mat 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Mat 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,20:31)

Good afternoon Big Wave Dave, “Ruwach Elohim” means “spirit OF God”, as made clear by the 70 scholars who translated the LXX.  In Gen 1:2, the LXX uses the genetive form of “God”, making the verse in English read, “…And the Spirit OF God was hovering over the waters…” (Mike, please check with Ed, he fought months with people showing them that the word “OF” does not exist and is inserted by the translators. Here I go directly to the Hebrew but you defer to LXX, why? This is Greek, too.) “Jehovah God” heard the bad news today.  The “Spirit OF God” was troubled upon hearing it. Again we have only ONE God, and His NAME is Jehovah……hence “Jehovah God”.  That God has a spirit…….hence “Spirit OF God”. And just to make double sure you understand this, I'll put both sentences together. “President Obama” heard the bad news today.   “Jehovah God” “Title/Name” The “spirit OF the President” was troubled upon hearing it.      “Spirit OF God”      “Posession/Owner” Do you agree with this so far? mike

Mike,

Again, the word “OF” is inserted to conform to our language usage. Ruwach Elohim is how it is in Hebrew in Gen 1:2 and it is YHWH Elohim in Gen 2:4.

But if you wanted to, you could, see Spirit Elohim as a separate entity in the same way that you see YHWH Elohim as a separate entity.

You don't have a problem with LORD God as being one entity but you refuse the same treatment for Spirit Elohim. Why?

Why Spirit isn't shown as “She” is because every time Spirit is used it doesn't follow up with ANY pronouns….to have done so would have been redundant…..like saying, “David He”….

Do yourself a favor and look at each time Spirit is used and you will see that there isn't a follow-up sentence in which to use a pronoun.

However, since Spirit Elohim consists of these 7 spirits:
Spirit (of) YHWH
Fear (of) YHWH
Power/Strength
Knowledge
Understanding
Counsel
Wisdom

You will find that all of these nouns are feminine….and in Proverbs you will see plenty of “Shes” following each spirit.

But, I already know how this will be treated…..these are characteristics, etc and everything will be denied and negated by opinions…not Scriptures. (However, you will see 7 spirits in front of God's throne in Revelation.)

Until you realize that Spirit Elohim and YHWH Elohim are separate essences you will keep putting Spirit Elohim as part of YHWH Elohim. But, because you put “OF” you keep making the word genitive (possessive) which it isn't. It is its own separate entity. The Scriptures have it that way but you want to change it (along with translators) when you put it in English….and add the “of”. If you didn't do that you could see that these two separate entities comprise the ONE entity called “God”, Elohim.

You can use Obama all you like, but I prefer the Bible and how it is written. But to humor you once:

President (God) Obama (YHWH) is the order here. In the Bible the order is YHWH Elohim and is joined as ONE entity. YOU are chosing to separate President Obama into two aspects of title/name whereas YHWH Elohim is either a complete title or a complete name.

Also, you continue to misapply YHWH Elohim and Spirit Elohim as they are written in Hebrew. But, I do appreciate your efforts Mike. But, whatever way you treat YHWH Elohim give Spirit Elohim the same application, ok? AND I will agree with you as long as the application is consistent. Even if you want to make both of them genitive in usage….I'll agree….just be consistent.

The problem you will find is that if you show consistency then both Spirit and YHWH are “PARTS” of Elohim. However for me that is how the word Elohim is defined (noun, feminine AND masculine, singular) and agrees with the verses in the Bible.

The problem that we will have is when you don't want to apply consistency for Spirit Elohim (Ruwach Elohim) and YHWH Elohim.

And just like your Hosea 12 example, translators add many words to conform to OUR usage.

Mike, I am not being sarcastic nor fecitious but I do appreciate your efforts in thinking and trying to find Scriptures.

You will find nothing can change what is written in the Bible and I am not taking them out of context. Because you are a student of the Bible and are honest in your searches as t8 is I believe that God will show you what He has shown me.

In God's Love and mine,

[davidbfun]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,20:38)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2010,12:07) Hi David, So by your Post: you “NOW” agree that it 'doesn't say' … 'and they said they created everything THRU Their son' 'You' are “clearly” reading into the text; called embellishing! Hi David, I agree with Ed here, and if you are honest, you will admit that “Elohim” is never called a “THEY”.  Nor is the Holy Spirit called a “SHE” that I'm aware of. For you to say the scriptures say “THEY said” and “THEIR Son” is not “embelishing” as Ed so nicely puts it, but falsifying scriptures.  Well if that ain't a slap in the face of the thread entitled “Truth Check”.     mike

Hi Mike,

I am honest, will you be honest, too, ok?

What would be the pronoun for someone that says, “Let US make man in OUR image”? Since US and OUR are plural the pronoun shouldn't be “He” now should it?

Wouldn't it be “They”?

And since Elohim is doing the talking and Elohim is translated “God” and Jesus is the son of God, wouldn't Jesus be “THEIR” “US” or “OUR” son? No embellishment.

Love and peace…

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