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[Anastas]

I will also pray for you Miia.

Only God knows whom he has chosen and it isn’t for us to decide that.

You will be led to where you will go; follow what the Spirit is telling you and you will know the truth. Our Lord came to us to show us God and acts on behalf of God as God, being given God’s name, becoming our mediator to the one true God, the Father. There are some who say that it is wrong to pray to the Lord, but I would not agree. The Lord is in us, lives with us, and speaks to us, how could we then say it is wrong to speak to him who is there to mediate for us? Your love for the Lord is evident, but remember what he has taught in scripture. He does nothing for his own glory, but for his Father’s and our Father’s glory, for his God’s and for our God’s glory.

[Anastas]

Yes it is just like how they will interpret “For the Father and I are one” to mean they are one by substance, instead of merely purpose, but then interpret “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me,” to be speaking about oneness in substance in one part and then oneness in purpose in the next. Their interpretation is completely arbitrary even when context says otherwise.

[Anastas]

Religion is an outward expression of the faith inside. Of course religion can become corrupt in its scope, becoming more of culture than an expression of faith, but that should not discount all religious activity as useless. We only need to look at baptism, or taking of the body and blood of Christ. Is the submersion in water mean you are reborn? No, there are many who are baptized who do not know Christ. Yet, how many of us would then say that baptism is useless? It’s required as a testament of your faith as Christ said, “Unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” And as for the Lord’s supper we are commanded to eat it in remembrance of Christ, yet we are also told that we must eat the body of Christ and drink his blood to have eternal life. So, likewise, the supper in itself is nothing, yet is made into something when the outward expression (religion) is combined with the faith in the inward parts. These are both religious activities, yet many Christians who say religion is evil probably do these things which is very hypocritical. Correct religion has never been the problem… it is the people doing the religion.

[Anastas]

Wisdom is an attribute and has always existed as God has always existed. For could there ever be a time when God was not wise? Hardly. However, we would be unwise not to see what is written and the similarities.

Corinthians 1:24 christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Brother Paul calls Christ wisdom. Keep that in mind.

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, for in him all things were created

So Christ was born first. You may say “firstborn” is referring to a title, which it also could be, but since it harmonizes with proverbs 8:22 when it says “Jehovah formed me in the beginning of his way.” It would be wise to accept it with a double meaning for both are supported by scripture.

Now you can see Christ made all things (God created through Christ)

Proverbs 8:27-31 speak of wisdom creating the world as Gods master workman.

So now we have Christ being called wisdom and both wisdom creating the world as well as christ creating the world.

Now consider the similarities in proverbs 8:32-36 between what we know of Christ and wisdom.

“For blessed are they that keep my ways.”

“Blessed is the man that heareth me”

“Whosoever findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favor of Jehovah”

He who sinneth agsinst me, wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

One would look at this and say christ were speaking these things for all of these apply to what he said of himself, yet this is wisdom speaking. So if Christ is called wisdom, is described as doing the same things as wisdom, and speaking the same words as wisdom but of himself, it would only be prudent to accept the one talking as the Christ.

[Anastas]

Lightenup

Hey! I think we actually agreed on something! Imagine! Haha

[Anastas]

Genebalthrop

 

I have always been curious to know what biblical unitarians thought about hebrews when it says:

God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,

2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And

For in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

How does one say that these verses do not shown that the Christ preexisted? I am genuinely interested in your response.

[Anastas]

Nick

Hi A,

Christ means anointed one.

The anointing is by the Spirit of God.

The Word is of the Spirit and thus is eternal.

I am not sure where you stand my friend or what you exactly believe regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If Christ is wisdom which proverbs 8 speaks about it is difficult to say he didnt have a start at some point in eternity… but then I doubt that it matters if he was born from God at some point or if he was always with God. The main thing is to recognize who the true God is, that is to say the Father and the one He sent, the Christ.

 

 

[Anastas]

Lightenup

Even if you prefer the word possession, it does not change the fact that “kana” is referring to a possession which was obtained or “got” not something that you always had. That is why so many translations speak about wisdom having a beginning, however, you can continue to view it to say what you want. In the end you are correct, it only means one thing.

Considering that Christ said that his Father was his God, that Christ is the image of God (image = not original) that Christ is described as the only begotten Son (a Son is subordinate to a Father; begotten means fathered or born) which was the only one that came directly from God, thus the only begotten. Considering this fits perfectly with the word usage in proverbs of wisdom (the preexistant christ) being brought forth. And we know Christ is wisdom because God created the world through wisdom, and it is also written that the world was created through Christ reaffirming Pauls statement, “Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” Also considering the many many points that the Christ shows the Father being greater than he, suggests Christ had a beginning at some point.

As for your scripture citations, it could very well be or even likely that these verses also have Christ in mind… it fits what I just said. But remember not every inference of wisdom is Christ. He is described as wisdom because he personifies that trait, he possesses that characteristic just as he is also the Word and possesses the trait of communicating God. But if he does and if he is the image of God, it stands to reason God also embodies these traits and has all these powers in himself as well…. that is why there is no great mystery when God spoke in the heavens when the Word was here in the flesh. The last verse you quoted speaks of the general characteristic of wisdom just as there is worldly wisdom but even if it didnt we know from proverbs 8:14 that wisdom is also understanding… “I am understanding”…

I would say your friend is mixing words. Surely God did create a plan and the Christ was the plan but this chapter  is not describing the plan, but rather who christ was/is. To say otherwise is twisting words.

True, they have different meanings but create encompssses begat. You have several sons, at one moment they did not exist… then they did. That is being created. Begat means being fathered or born but still falls under create.

You are correct, I am in my late 20s and I was baptised by a brother who also follows the way. The true church does not have borders.

Im sorry for not replying sooner.

[Anastas]

Terrarica

God does not depend on his created things ;

Ge 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Ge 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Ge 6:7 So the LORD said, “””“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created,””” from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.

we are here for Noah was a righteous man ;so get your act together and start to learn the truth ,in scriptures not in your imagination

Im sorry if you misunderstood me. I did not say God was dependant on anyone. I was using that as a example to show how ridiculous the idea is that God (the Father) was dependant on the Son to create. God depends on no one but chose to create the worlds through his Son, not required.

 

[Anastas]

Lightenup

The Bible testifies against that notion when it says that all things were made by the Word of God which is Jesus, the wisdom and power of God which God possessed BEFORE His works of old.

Yes God did possess him before his works of old, for God created all things through Christ. Of course when it says “all” its qualified. Just as when Paul said “all things are put in subjection to him, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things under him”. In the same way, all here shows the world excluding the Father who created through Christ.

Now, you said “possessed” which is true in a sense but doesnt fully describe the original word “kana” or “qanah”. Does your bible have footnotes? If so it ll have “formed, or “fashioned”, or “produced” or similar renderings. Other translations use these as the prominent translation:

“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; NIV

“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. New living translation

The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. Holman christian standard bible

“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.” aramaic bible in plain english

It is said by much wiser men than myself that kana is more closely aligned to “getting” or “acquiring” over outright ownership.

If that id the case then God created/begot the Son, and in the process giving proof that The Father creates on his own in the process. This idea is reinforced in the next couple lines where wisdom “was set up” and “brought forth”.

Whether you accept proof is another matter.

As for your question, spiritual maturity is indeed virtuous, but sometimes this maturity is not maturity but rather disguised conceit. Brother Paul said he did not take his salvation for granted nor assume his salvation lest he become complacent. I have always believed, feeling God’s presence, but i did not run the race to win until i was baptized nearly 3 years ago. True disciples seeks out truth even if its difficult, for “narrow is the gate and few shall enter therein”.

[Anastas]

Does that make you feel better when you belittle those who understand Christ differently than you?

Have you considered this:

Matt 7 2For you will be treated as you treat others.a The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.

Perhaps you are new in the Lord, eh?

And no, it is not 1 Peter 1:1.

I wonder why you become defensive? I merely quoted as you did with proof to prove the point. I simply spoke like you spoke, but if you wish to pass condemnation, be my guest. However, you ll be doing it hypocritically.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

There is nothing that the Father does that is done without the Son. Jesus said whatever He sees the Father do, He is the one doing it. The Son carries out the vision of the Father. Once again, interdependence.

With that logic then are we apart of God too? Because God would not be God without created subjects to call him God right? So hes dependent on us too right? Of course not. The Son carries out the Fathers orders, yes, but he is not dependant on him to create. The Son was brought forth for that very purpose (christ is wisdom according to Paul and wisdom was formed as said by Solomon in the proverbs)… you are using unmerited assumptions for your argument.

Also just as you said, whatever the Son sees the Father DO… The son cant copy what the Father is doing if the Son was always the one doing it… can he?

 

[Anastas]

@Lightenup

 

The difference is you have put your faith in the teachings of men who say the Christ is also God, equal with the Father, yet different

I understand you see the Father and Son are different, yet one God.

Even God the Father calls Him “God” and identifies Him as Jehovah

Yes He does but dont gloss over the fact that a couple lines further He qualified his remark saying “Therefore God, THY God…” showing the reader that the exalted Son still had God as his God. So how can that be? Christ has been given all authority and has been given “the name above every name” that being the image of God he would have the same name. Just as a viceroy is king to everyone but the true king, Christ has the name of God and is God in that we see the true God through him, yet is himself not the true God.

As for Peter his confession was “you are the Son of God”. If what you are using to show brother Peter stating Christ is Yehowah is 2 Peter 1:1, then  you do so foolishly. The standard bible rightly translates this passage with a “the” separating God and saviour responding to the next verse that also separates God and Christ and his first epistle which says “blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

We are to worship Christ… but as the Son and our king. Dont you know Christ said to the church of philidelphia “i will make them to come and worship before thy feet”? Obviously there are varying degrees of worship.

I agree if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. So when christ says in rev. 3:12 while in heaven “I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY God” and “i will write upon him the names of MY God” and “I go to my Father and your Father, MY God and your God” we can see Christ’s God is our God who is the Father. The duck is quacking but you arent listening to it for yourself, you re just mimicking your teachers hoping they got the sound right and copying it.

 

 

[Anastas]

No, t8, Jesus does not have  power “over” the Father, Jesus IS the Power OF the Father…and it is through that power (Jesus) that the Father created the world and saves those men who have made that ‘power’ (Jesus) the Lord of their lives.

Thanks for setting that up for me, btw.

Christ is the power and wisdom of God, brother Paul said likewise. Also those who put their faith in Christ shall be saved, I also agree. The difference is you have put your faith in the teachings of men who say the Christ is also God, equal with the Father, yet different without proof. Christ is God in that he shows us God and it is through the Son that we may see God, not that he is God exactly, only that he shows us God like a reflection in the mirror.

The psalmist says that “power belongs to God”. Solomon in all his wisdom said wisdom was formed. Christ is the wisdom and power of God: a power that belongs to one greater (God our Father) and wisdom that was formed and created. Both show an authority over Christ. Combine this with all that Christ said, “the Father is greater than I”, “I do not speak on my own authority”,  “neither is he that is sent greater than he that sent him.”, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” and you easily see who God is.

Trinitarians tell Christ what he meant instead of listening to what he actually said.

 

[Anastas]

Kerwin,

In short I was merely agreeing to what you had said. I wanted to show that if if the word of God describes some as gods, then they are to some capacity. We know there is only one true God so then the word god used to describe some in the bible is an example of different degrees and meanings to the word god

[Anastas]

Love stretches as far as there is true repentance. One who is truly ashamed of the evil he did against God and strived to put away his evil ways and become one with Christ will be given grace through love. One who refuses to accept and change his iniquities refuses Gods love, and so God’s love is not with him.

[Anastas]

Amen, miia

I think most here would totally agree to what you have said but are rather arguing about the details… whether that is edifying is another matter

[Anastas]

Gene,

Is scripture from God? I would assume that you would be like me in believing that it is. If it is and it is written in Psalms 82 “you are gods, and all sons of the Most High” and “the god of this age (devil) has blinded the minds of unbelievers…” then are you saying God was wrong in having these things written as they were? Now I know there is only one God Yehowah Almighty, and there are none that are a god in compared to him but then why would the devil be said to be a god if he wasn’t in some capacity? It is in that way that we know there are varying definitions and degrees of “god” from the Almighty where there is but One, to angels who are gods in a different way. So if kerwin or T8 are wrong, why does the bible describe those who are not God as gods if there was not a different degree to the word god?

[Anastas]

@T8,

As you are probably aware, the oldest manuscripts omit the section you quoted from so I would be hesitant to trust its authority.

“Behold then the goodness and severity of God: upon them who have fallen, severity; upon thee goodness of God, if thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away.” Romans 11:22

I do not think any would disagree with what Leviticus says. The law is a copy of heavenly things here on earth. When the law was in effect, the judgments of God came through it. Has anything changed? Only that the judgments are no longer passed through our hands. Surely the wicked, the adulterers, and the abominable who do not repent in Christ will still face the penalty that the law says they will; That is death. Nothing has changed, only we are no longer the ones carrying out the punishment.

God is justice as much as he is grace.

As it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.”

 

 

[Anastas]

You speak as if there were a difference. Christ is identified as our king and the law of God is just as important in heaven as it is on earth. You say there is no government, but our government is our king and the law our God puts into our hearts. Where do you think brotherly love comes from? God showed us his love in Christ and we imitate that love because it is true. As soon as one rejects love he rejects the law of God, for the law is love and where love is, there too is God. But also where God is, there is obedience because He is the authority/government.

I’m not sure this is the appropriate thread for this, however. Perhaps that is something we could talk about elsewhere?

[Anastas]

T8,

your absolutely right. From the perspective of the world, it is the fairest and safest by far. No other system has brought such prosperity and humanism than democracy. These things are great… if our goal of prosperity is humanistic and material. (If God did not deem homosexuality as wrong, those who champion it would be heroes) But what about spiritually?

Indeed, democracy gives us the freedom to follow any religion we choose. I mean, if we had a medieval Christian theocracy we could very well not be discussing this right now (burned or decapitation comes to mind). But in our safety, do we not find ourselves more susceptible to become “lukewarm” in our faith? If we look at ISIS its easy to see the evil they do and reject it, its straight forward but what is worse? The evil that is easily detected, or that evil that is far more subtle and insidious that can seem like something good? I am not so sure myself, for that insidious subtle darkness is difficult to detect, you only have to look at the Pharisees to see it at work. Men who were very zealous for godliness, yet were deceived regardless.

I myself would take an absolute ruler who is a God fearing man over a democracy that allows the worlds views to be impressed on us. Was Moses so bad? David? Joshua? I would even argue the Victorians had more moral ethics and understanding than we do today.

I am not for revolution, we know that all leaders are there by God’s will. I only think our national pride is very misplaced, and democracy is a worldly system that we should never praise nor embrace. The kingdom of God will not compromise for the benefit of the masses.

And for terraricca

1John 5:3- In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands

1 Cor 13:4-7 – Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It is kindness, gentle, meek, love serves and is caring, love is disciplined, respectful, merciful and obedient… And so it is out of love that I might question a system that many of us praise as good, so that some may see that perhaps its not as good as we thought and even, perhaps, dangerous.

 

 

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