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[Wispring]

Hi terraricca,
 

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I personally have many bibles in different languages ,but having study the scriptures so long ,I came to the understanding that it is not so important the version of your bible ,what is more important is the message in it DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MESSAGE ,??? you may have notice that in basics the message never changes in any version in any language ,and this is what counts ,God purpose has been achieved ,but if you keep reading it and pray you will find out that with a pure heart God will make him known to you ,and show you the way to the truth ,no matter what version of scriptures you own, I use to believe like you that it was the letter that was important but this would mean that men would have more power than God ,stop being attached to the world of the flesh ,put the words of God in your heart ,and God will show the way to him,with what is in your heart , but you have to trust him,and believe that he will do that ,without a doubt,and in a pure heart ;

  This in my humble view is one of your most the most beautiful, truthful, lovely posts that I have ever read. Keep up the good work!

                                                                              With Love and Respect,
                                                                                          Wispring

[Wispring]

You will probably be waiting a looong time for any kind of response from him in this forum. Stu gave a pretty accurate description of how he posts to this forum. I tried to to have conversation with him and it didn't garner anything productive. Good luck on getting anything productive going with him.

[Wispring]

Pierre,
My understanding of this issue is pretty much in agreement with t8, shimmer, Kerwin and Istari. They have posted enough scripture for you to see how it is scripturally supported. If you choose not to understand it this way so be it. It is not an issue for a soul's salvation in my humble opinion. I most likely will never again try to debate or convince you again of anything scriptual because our individual native languages. I feel it to be great a barrier for meaningful discourse. I still believe you are a follower of Christ Jesus and truly love God. I simply don't have any desire to learn your native language to have conversations with you that require nuances that I firmly believe you will miss because of the language barrier that is truly there. No offence brother, I am certain I would miss much of what you would want to communicate to me if you used your native toungue and I was not profficiently fluent in it. I have asked you to improve your english communication skills and you were offended. Even when I meant no offence nor was I questioning you intelligence or your earnestness in teaching things about the bible. I am stating this to you honestly so that you know that I simply feel it would be fruitless to discuss some things with you in depth.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[Wispring]

That is what I meant Kerwin. I see the difference in expression you are making. If I state it the other way I have to use qualifiers such as God is in all things, however, intelligent conscious creatures such as us have the ability to block-out/resist/negate God's presence in us via simple decision making mental processes, whereas, my houseplant and the dirt it grows in does not.

[Wispring]

My take is that these folks are looking for “spiritual experiences” and are not looking to serve God.

[Wispring]

Hi Shimmer and everyone else,

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He knows every person by name and calls to them. He is in all things – in every atom and element, in every organism and every molecule. He is above all things and in all things – and He lives in you.

  Not going to debate this. God revealed to me personally via Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth that the above quoted statement is God's truth. Post all the scriptures you want. Have read other scriptures that support this and the point is it wasn't scriptures that taught me this fact of reality, it was God.

                                                    With Love and more love,
                                                                   Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Shimmer and everyone else,

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He knows every person by name and calls to them. He is in all things – in every atom and element, in every organism and every molecule. He is above all things and in all things – and He lives in you.

  Not going to debate this. God revealed to me personally via Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth that the above quoted statement is God's truth. Post all the scriptures you want. Have read other scriptures that support this and the point is it wasn't scriptures that taught me this fact of reality, it was God.

                                                    With Love and more love,
                                                                   Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi David,
From the stuff you posted it comes to my mind that Simon taught he was either God or the trilogy concept of God in the flesh. Since Christ Jesus taught us God is spirit and must be worshipped in truth and spirit this Simon was evidently a self-glorifying self-deluded man.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Charles,

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Yes I will pray for you in order to achieve your aim? Through praying for you I will achieve mine?

  I would like you to pray for me with the strength of faith to truly believe in the center of your soul that what you are praying for has already occured or will occur upon completion of your prayer. This is how our lord and master Christ Jesus instructed us to pray. If it is in accordance and agreement with God's will it will happen. If it doesn't happen what you pray for is not in accordance and agreement with God's will.

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Teach me through the Gospel,where it is clear that Jesus did all things for us and we are already saved no matter what we do and how we live???

  I can't teach you this because it's not true. I never stated it was true. How you get in your mind that I ever even hinted at this I have no idea. Jesus did many things for us. He certainly didn't do all things for us. You know as well as I do that our salvation is predicated on is doing the good things that Christ Jesus talked about in accordance with God's will. This is the narrow road Charles.
  Instead of trying to put me throught some litmus test of yours to prove myself to you that I am a disciple of Christ Jesus and a lover of God why don't you tell me what is not of God's truth in this simple way of God. Notice I do not say easy. I say simple. As in not difficult to comprehend. The gospel is meant to be simple enough that an unlearned child can comprehend it Charles. Fact of the matter is, it truly is that simple.

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He knew I had to discover for myself that the gospel is really simple. That loving God is really simple. That loving one another as we love ourselves which should be equal to the love that we love God with is really simple. This is how you live in God's kingdom both in this life and the next Charles. See? I told you it is really simple. You have faith that God will be with you through all times good and bad. You have faith that he will lead you to his eternal salvation. You have faith and prove through your thoughts and actions that you are a brother of Christ Jesus and everthing will work out for the best.

  See? No fancy terminology. No complex ideologies or philosophies. Straight forward. To the point. Short and sweet. Just like our life on this earth can be if we choose to love Christ Jesus and keep his words so that he and God will dwell within us, therefore, defeating any evil that might be trying to manifest itself within us. To be honest I think basically you believe pretty much the same things I do, but, you prefer to complicate matters, whereas, I prefer to simplify matters. Like Christ Jesus said to the man who asked him how inherit eternal life. Obey God's commandments and follow me. This is what I do my best to do Charles. Do you notice how I don't have an accusatory tone to my posts? It's not my job or responsibility Charles. Do you notice I don't ask you to explain scriptures to me in order to see if we are in full agreement with how God has blessed my mind at this time to understand?
  I will tell you the truth. I believe all of the words that Christ Jesus spoke that are recorded in the bible are spirit words to be understood, meditated upon, and words to live by. I even like to read the gospel of Thomas which is just a collection of Christ Jesus sayings that have no story wrapped around them.
  Right now, Charles, I am reading psalms for the most part. It's alot of reading. I like to be inspired by reading the things that a true lover of God wrote.
  Seems to me in your last post is that your condemning me for some sort of sinful behaviour that you are perceiving I am engaging in. I will tell you the truth Charles. Everyone has some ungodly behaviour in them. They also have godly behaviour. Don't you think things would go better between people if we accentuated the godly behaviour? If we said and did things that would bring this godly behaviour out in our lives more and strengthen it more? Thereby, helping one another on our own individual paths towards salvation?
  May the words of Christ Jesus and the love of God guide you in to the peace and rest that is promised us in the bible.

                                                             With Love and more love,
                                                                      Wispring

[Wispring]

Charles,
  You go right ahead pondering and theologizing. When your done I will still be here, being a lover of God and a disciple of Christ. Some of what you post is good. Alot is theological/mental/spiritual rambling. I can see now you are a spiritual seeker. I have been there in my life. I understand. When you finally get back to just keeping Christ Jesus' words and serving God you will see you have wasted much thought and time. I did and no one could stop me. God let me because he loves me and knew I loved him. He knew I had to discover for myself that the gospel is really simple. That loving God is really simple. That loving one another as we love ourselves which should be equal to the love that we love God with is really simple. This is how you live in God's kingdom both in this life and the next Charles. See? I told you it is really simple. You have faith that God will be with you through all times good and bad. You have faith that he will lead you to his eternal salvation. You have faith and prove through your thoughts and actions that you are a brother of Christ Jesus and everthing will work out for the best. You endure the bad times. You enjoy the good times always letting the love that God has shown you shine out from your person. No word games. No riddles. No worries. By the way, misunderstood some of the context of my previous post, which is why you stated I was playing word games. Believe me, I was in no way trying to play word games. No, I will not debate with you the meaning of “form”. Go in Peace and may your love for God guide you to the down-to-earth salty nature of his way. Yes, it is God's earth and we are his people.

                                                    With Love and more love,
                                                               Wispring

[Wispring]

good idea t8.Another thing that the initiators of these threads that are seeking input from people with the same theological doctrinal position could do is periodically re-post the purpose and scope of the initial post or have a little paragraph as like a p.s. put at the end of their posts so that someone not "up to speed" with the intent of the thread and who just searched for "most recent posts" could be informed in an on-going manner as to exactly what the purpose of the thread is. This would keep things more true to the original intent of the thread in an orderly and civil fashion in my humble opinion.

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  I can easily understand how a culture from 5000 years or do so ago would have a different word picture that expresses eternal in a way fairly alien and not in perfect conformance to a modern understanding of eternal. I can easily understand ages of ages to be referring to eternal. By the way a valid modern definition of forever is also always and at all times so rest easy.

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for·ever (fôr ev′ər, fər-) adverb 1.for eternity; for always; endlessly 2.at all times; always noun Informal a period of time that seems to have no end Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio. Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc. for·ev·er (fôr-ĕvˈər, fər-) adverb 1.For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever. 2.At all times; incessantly: was forever complaining about the job. noun A seemingly very long time: It has taken forever to resolve these problems. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

  So, therefore, you can use the NWT Isaiah 57:15 and be safely within the definition of forever and mean also from forever.
  Then there is this from the Gospel of Thomas

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18)  The disciples said to Jesus, “Tell us how our end will be.”     Jesus said, “Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death.”

  Which fits in quite nicely with what Rena's mom said.

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My mother used to explain God as being like a circle.  A circle goes on and on round and round and you don't know where the begining is or end because there isn't one.

  I think God whispered an eternal truth in her ear. May God's light eternally guide us all in our search for truth which has no lie within it.

                                           With Love and more love,
                                                    Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  I believe the Hebrews did have a real concept of eternity. Thier definition of eternal doesn't precisely conform to our modern definition of eternity is what I think is what's going on. To them it is of a time that is at and beyond the vanishing point of the cognitave awareness of events that occur within time that they are aware of using “the vanishing point”  from Strong's for example. Using the proper definition “concealed” one can think of concealed time as being being a form of eternity simply because it is not revealed and known of or about. Using “time out of mind” one can think of this as time that one's mind can't wrap ones mind around, therefore, a concept of time that is in form and by extension eternal. “Always was, Always is, Always will” be is the best phrase I can think of currently that embodies and defines eternal using the english language. I can't find this phrase verbatim used in reference to God in scriptures to define his longevity. Therefore, I can see how tranlators could translate this word to mean really, really old and also to mean eternity by our modern definition of eternity. They do this by presuming that God is, indeed, eternal and then translate in context that God and his word are eternal is probably the reasoning behind thier translations. I have read in non-biblical text that God is the eternal supreme consciousness. So at least to other people and other cultures God is eternal and is expressed with words that match our modern definition. I personally think God is eternal and won't lose much sleep over the fact that the the ancient Hebrews and Greeks didn't have a word to use for the word eternal that precisely fits our modern definition of eternal and does not fit our modern definition of eternal like a hand-stitched glove.

                                                    With Love and more love,
                                                            Wispring

[Wispring]

Good Post David.

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
Your right. I misunderstood what aforetime meant. I did some further research on the word “oulm” which is translated to english to mean “indefinately lasting” in the NWT. The Strongs has that the word means properly concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind(future or past) that is derived from a primitive root word “alam” that means to to veil from sight or conceal(literaly or figuratively). Perhaps, because the Hebrew culture at this time did not have a word symbol for the concept of eternity/infinity which we have now with that side-ways figure 8 that means infinity mathematically this was the closest they could come with the language tools they had to communicate with? I have done a little research on this and it seems to be the case. Try googling “Did the ancient Hebrews have a word for eternity” and you will see what I am talking about here. So I would say that we would be hard-pressed to find scriptural proof from the Hebrew language for our modern understanding of eternal because at that time beyond the horizon of time or to the vanishing point of time they could conceptualize was there understanding of eternity and “oulm” was the best word they had to talk about it.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
  Right. Please continue to try to convince people via the scriptures that Jesus is not God. It's obvious to some and evidently not obvious to others. You are correct that given that Jesus is not God, worshiping him as God does, indeed, go against the commandment of God. The teaching of Christ Jesus I had in mind was when Jesus tells us all sins will be forgiven except those against the Holy Spirit. I understand this to mean if God reveals his truth about a matter to you via the Holy Spirit and you recognize it as such, if you then decide to go against the truth of a matter that you know in you heart of hearts is true because of a direct revelation from God; this sin is unforgivable. Therefore, if someone(s) worship Christ Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit never revealed to this someone(s) that Jesus is not God then God will know the truth of the matter and judge them accordingly. So if you have been given a truth about a matter, then, like Ezekial as written about in Ez 3:18-21 you should inform the others. Just like you do. Then, just like Christ Jesus taught us in a very similar wording, if the information is communicated and not accepted as truth you have met your responsibility to God and you should wipe the dust of your feet and move on. So my post really didn't come from a “live and let live” frame of mind and is actually scripturally based based on what sin is unforgivable according to Christ Jesus' own words. I hope this more fully explains the content of my previous post. Keep fighting the good fight on this matter Mike. You are by temperment and nature a fighter/warrior in my humble opinion. I have no intention to try to change this aspect of your personality.

                                                        With Love and more love,
                                                                Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
Perhaps in your mind they don't. To my mind aforetime or beforetime means from place either where time has no meaning or time has no presence. This qualifies as eternity to my mind. You, of course, can think it about what ever way your freewill leads you.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Mike,
I implied nothing. I stated the reasoning of an understanding of scripture based from a standpoint of God's word, part of which is prophesies, being fulfilled in the scriptures. I am not one of those Jews living in that spiritually darkened time. I understand spiritual things differently than they did. I will state that is fairly clear that most of the people and at least some of Christ Jesus disciples did not understand what he was saying most of time. Even when he was speaking to them in person. I would like to make it clear that to my mind the trinity and pre-existence theological issues most likely are pale in comparison to loving Christ Jesus and keeping his words. Loving God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul. Loving one another as you love yourself. Conducting youself in behaviour and demeanor in accordance with the sermon on the mount. Taking care of the needy, the fatherless, and the widows. It is interesting stuff to discuss and debate this is true. In the final analysis, one's acceptance in the heavenly realm upon death from this world most likely will not hinge on one's understanding of these two issues. May the peace that our lord and master Christ Jesus promised his disciples dwell in you heart and may the love you have for God be expressed in your interactions with you fellow man.

With Love and more love,
Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi WJ,
 

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Ha Ha! You deride me for committing a “logical fallacy” and yet you attempt to make the argument that ATR was a Baptist and indoctrinated therefore that means his Greek is biased. Do you see the irony of your claim? Paladin said…”What else would you expect from a trinitarian grammarian?”.  It is wrong to attack ATR's Greek by claiming it is based on his theology, and insinuate he was dishonest. That works 2 ways also. What if Mike or I in referring to you and Paladin said…“What do you expect from a “Unitarian?”

  To be honest WJ, I didn't think I was deriding you nor Mr. Robertson's honesty in his exegesis. I was stating that it is only natural that a person who was born and raised with the trinity being an absolute truth would exegete with this bias. Not that it's right or wrong, it would be only natural based on how the mind works in a psychological way. For myself I was raised with neither the Unitarian or the Trinitarian religious education. I was an athiest in my teen years and made science my god. I did learn what objectivity is. I did admire the Spock character from Star Trek who experienced the world through an objective, logical mind. I do believe that God is objective when it comes to processing factual data. This is what I am using now to understand the greek language.

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The problem you have is when you say… Quote (Wispring @ June 10 2011,12:23) …Arguments from authority and from antiquity are at best “weak arguments” simply because the level of authority of any given individual in any given field can be a source for debate in and of itself.” and then claim it is a “logical fallacy”, well that is just not true in this case. First of all ATR is not just any individual, but in fact he is a “World renowned Greek Grammarian” who is recognized by many Greek Scholars to this day as being an expert in the field. Who are you, and who is Paladin? Where is the credible Greek scholar that disagrees with ATR and his Greek in John 6:38 or John 17:5? Are we just to take your word for it? So I don’t buy your “logical fallacy” argument in reference to ATR. You and Paladin are making the argument that your Greek is more accurate than his. So you see it is a two edged sword that swings both ways. According to your own words how are you not making a logical fallacy by arguing for the “Authority” of yours and Paladins Greek over ATR’s based on your own “theology”? At this point I haven’t seen any evidence that I should reject ATR’s Greek over yours or Paladin’s! It seems to me you and Paladin rejects his Greek merely because of his theology.

  You see this you posted above? It fits with high precision the situation described below.

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Argument from authority The basic structure of such arguments is as follows: Professor X believes A, Professor X speaks from authority, therefore A is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. The converse of this argument is sometimes used, that someone does not possess authority, and therefore their claims must be false. (This may also be considered an ad-hominen logical fallacy.) In practice this can be a complex logical fallacy to deal with. It is legitimate to consider the training and experience of an individual when examining their assessment of a particular claim. Also, a consensus of scientific opinion does carry some legitimate authority. But it is still possible for highly educated individuals, and a broad consensus to be wrong – speaking from authority does not make a claim true.

  So…yes it is a logical fallacy.
   Back to the issue being debated. Actually, the indicative mood refers to something that is actual, something that really occured or is considered matter of fact as opposed to possible or potentially from the authors perspective or viewpoint of the person speaking in the written account whether or not the the event is true or not. In other words, a lie is written in the indicative mood as well as a true factual statement according to the grammatical use of the indicative mood.
  It is a fact that Christ Jesus is the fullfillment of prophesy. It is a fact the prophesy came down from heaven. It is a fact that Christ Jesus knew he was the fullfillment of prophesy. It is a fact that he was conceived in Mary's womb via the Holy Spirit that came down from heaven. Now, it is never revealed in the scriptures that Christ Jesus was aware that he was conceived via the Holy Spirit; I assume that sometime during his life on earth with all the authority, wisdom, knowledge and power that God gave him he did become aware of this fact, however, he may not have known about this until after he was resurrected. It is a fact that the phrophesies that God gave to the prophets of the OT that predict the coming Christ Jesus are, indeed, a part of God's plan for mankind. This is the understanding of many of those who do not adhere to the Trinitarian or pre-existence doctrines go by.
  Let's review the meaning of the word literal now.

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Definition of LITERAL 1a : according with the letter of the scriptures b : adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual c : free from exaggeration or embellishment d : characterized by a concern mainly with facts 2: of, relating to, or expressed in letters 3: reproduced word for word : exact, verbatim

  Anything written about in a factual manner is considered literal even a prophesy or a plan.

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But you ignored my post when I quoted ATR… [Compare A. T. Robertson, “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 864, 879]: “It is not wise therefore to define the present indicative as denoting 'action in progress'”

  No WJ, I did not ignore it. The scriptures in view are John 6:38 and John 6:42

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John 6:38-42 King James Version (KJV) 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it t hen that he saith, I came down from heaven?

  These are perfect tense. They are not present tense, therefore, the present tense rules and definitions do not apply.

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Quote (Wispring @ June 10 2011,12:23) Please sir, do not think that I believe you are going to hell for holding on to your theology and defending it until the day of your death. It seems to me that is what all you anti-preexistence people are doing.

  Please sir, do not lump me in with some stereotypical generality that you may or may not have for people who do not believe in the pre-existence doctrine. I still believe that both you and I are disciples of Christ Jesus and are both doing our best to live our lives in accordance with loving him and keeping his words so that both he and God the Father will dwell within us in spirit. I still believe that both of us are in agreement that Christ Jesus is the truth, the light, and the way. I still believe that both of us are doing our best to love God with all our hearts, mind, strength and soul. I still believe we are doing our best to love one another as we love ourselves. At least I hope this is so.

                                                   With Love and more love,
                                                           Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Stu,

  The dogmatic shackles you have in your mind are the ones you put there yourself. Seek and you will find Stu. If you don't seek; you won't find. If you don't believe there is anything to find you won't seek it. I have already communicated to you all I have to offer. I know that a relationship with any living intelligent being is a two-way street. It's not for me to tell you what to build the street out of. Where to build it. How to build it or to what destination you want the street to take you. Do you see me telling you that you have to adhere to and accept any or all of judeo-christian doctrines, concepts and beliefs? No you don't. I simply believe Christ Jesus is who he says he is and have accepted him as my friend, brother and spiritual teacher. He doesn't teach me the things of physical science. He teaches me the things of non-physical spirituality and about how to conduct myself in my relationship with God and my fellow man.

                                              With Love and more love,
                                                        Wispring

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