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[WhatIsTrue]

If you don't think child marriage is morally acceptable, then we have been wasting a lot of time here.  My goal was not to attack Islam.  It was to attack the idea that child marriage could ever be legitimate.  In my opinion, it can never be.

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Now let me ask you this if a little child was an orphan and the country you lived in had no such thing as social services or adoption, with that in mind they also said any female that lived with any male must be married if it is not his immediate relative and you had the finances to take care of this little girl and knew that if left on her own she would surely perish would you marry the little girl or would you let her perish?

Really?  Given the choice between two bad outcomes, which would I choose?

I'd choose the bad outcome.  

Now here's one for you.  If you were being held captive, and your captors were torturing bunny rabbits, cute cuddly puppies, and small children, and your captors say that the only way for you to make the torture stop would be for you to eat bacon, what would you do?

Just so you know, if you chose to eat the bacon, I wouldn't think any less of you.  

p.s. For the record, choosing to do something that's wrong just because you don't have any other viable option doesn't suddenly make that something less wrong.  It just makes the whole situation an ethical nightmare.

[WhatIsTrue]

Tim,

Apparently, Ed is greater than Abraham, because God could ask Abraham to kill, but is incapable of asking Ed to do so.

Wait!  Maybe Ed is more powerful than God, since Ed apparently sets the terms of their relationship.

[WhatIsTrue]

Why not, Ed?

[WhatIsTrue]

Fine.  Under Islamic law child marriage may not be slavery, but in practice, (i.e. culturally speaking), it generally is.

However, even if divorce is allowed, subjecting a child to a sexual relationship is still inherently abusive, because a child is not mature enough to be in a sexual relationship with anyone – much less a much older male.

(If you can't understand this, imagine an adult tricking a child out of keeping a twenty dollar bill in favor of getting two shiny silver dimes.  That's in essence what child marriage is.)

And now, I really am done.

If you truly think that child marriage is acceptable, we are on two completely different planets, ethically speaking, but given that you have also defended slavery in the past, I can't say that I am surprised.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 17 2012,09:33)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 17 2012,13:32) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,23:46) Hi WIT, Your question is like what is like to walk on the sun? That can't happen, so your 'what if' question is invalid as you would apply it to me. OK, Ed, I'll accommodate your nonsense. Why was Abraham's willingness* to kill Isaac acceptable? a) Isaac was genetically polluted, so killing him was justified. b) God told Abraham to do it which automatically made it a “righteous” act. *Please note that I am explicitly talking about Abraham's willingness to do it, not whether or not he did it. Hi WIT, thank you! God wanted to show the Angels that Abraham was willing to do what he himself would do years later. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Isaac died of old age.  So are you saying that Abraham was simply willing to let Isaac die of old age?  Obviously not!

So what are we talking about here?  The fact that Abraham was willing to take Isaac's life!

So, why aren't you willing to do the same if God asks you to?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,23:46)

Hi WIT, Your question is like what is like to walk on the sun? That can't happen, so your 'what if' question is invalid as you would apply it to me.

OK, Ed, I'll accommodate your nonsense.

Why was Abraham's willingness* to kill Isaac acceptable?

a) Isaac was genetically polluted, so killing him was justified.

b) God told Abraham to do it which automatically made it a “righteous” act.

*Please note that I am explicitly talking about Abraham's willingness to do it, not whether or not he did it.

[WhatIsTrue]

bodhitharta,

You continue to amaze me – not in a good way!

Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between a marriage that is forced on a child – a permanent choice that the child will have to endure for the rest of her life! – and making your child go to school so that she will one day become independent of you?

Let me spell it out for you.

In America, parenting ends at age 18.  At that point, the child, who is now considered an adult, is under no obligation to do anything that the parent wants them to do.  (Even prior to turning 18, there are limits to the “force” that you are allowed to use with a child.)

Now what happens when we introduce child marriage into the picture?

At age 18, the child, who is still subservient to her much older husband, is still under the same obligation that was placed on her when she was a child.  She is not free to leave the marriage.  She is not free to choose to do something else with her life.  And, there is no point in her life when the obligation will be removed.

It's permanent.  It's involuntary.  It's slavery.

Now, if you want to continue to misunderstand this issue.  That's fine, but I am done here.  Personally, I am disgusted that I had to spend this much time explaining basic ethics to someone who should know better.

I mean, child marriage?  Really?  You are really sitting here defending that?

Like I said, you continue to amaze me, bodhitharta, and not in a good way.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2012,16:33)

Hi WIT, No dodge, God wouldn't tell “ME”(Ed J) to kill anyone. My question to “YOU” was – how would those in your scenario know if it was God telling them to kill or if it was satan telling them?    It you instead that is dodging my question to you  –  so please answer.

Really, Ed?

You think that by not answering my question you've answered my question?!?!?!?

I would say that that is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard you say, but it's not.

In any case, this kind of thing may work on other people, but it's not going to work on me.  In a discussion, both people have to be willing to answer the questions that are asked of them, or it doesn't work.  Until you actually answer my question, we are at an impasse.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2012,22:42)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 15 2012,00:42) Ed, So you would not “kill if God told you to”? Hi WIT, How would you know if it was God doing the talking and not satan? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Nice dodge!

My actual question was:

So you would not “kill if God told you to”?

I didn't ask you about voices, or visions, (or satan?!?!?).  I asked specifically about what you do if God asked you to kill for him.

The fact that you dodged the answer indicates that you see how crazy the only answer a believer can give sounds.

[WhatIsTrue]

Ed,

So you would not “kill if God told you to”?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2012,02:31)

You would not Kill if God told you to? If you would not then you are not a believer.

You have to admit, Ed. He's got a point there!

I'm going to add that to my list of quotes about why religion is harmful.  It's a much more blunt version of Steven Weinberg's quote:

“Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion.“

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2012,02:25)

As your own view that Child Marriage equals Slavery how could it equal slavery anymore than any other type of Marriage?

I define slavery as involuntary servitude – emphasis on involuntary.

It is a fact that the vast majority of these child marriages are forced arrangements, (i.e. the child has no say in it whatsoever).  Furthermore, the child is unable to leave the relationship voluntarily.  Combine that with the fact that these girls are clearly subservient to their much older husbands, and you have a perfect recipe for enslavement.

A normal marriage, (i.e. one that does not equal slavery), is a voluntary agreement between two consenting adults – extra emphasis on both consenting and adults.

Do you really not see the difference?

[WhatIsTrue]

bodhitharta,

First of all, I said nothing about my opinions on any of this until after you made your comments that included the image that you introduced into this discussion.

Secondly, how does “[it is] perverted and wrong for an older man to marry a child and the reason is 'sexual abuse'” equate to “the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant“?  They are not even remotely the same statement.

And, by the way, I didn't even say anything about “sexual abuse” either.  If you want an honest, concise summary of what I actually said it is that child marriage equals slavery.

This is why debates with you are often pointless.  You can't even be honest about what it is we are discussing.

[WhatIsTrue]

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Morality comes from YHVH.

Who apparently can't make up his mind from one generation to the next about what is right and what is wrong.

Oh well. Perfection is so hard to maintain!

[WhatIsTrue]

By the way, Ed, are you suggesting that morals are relative and not absolute, (e.g. allowing for different ethical standards in different time periods)?

[WhatIsTrue]

Ed,

OK, I'll consider it.

According to the bible, Israel was intended to be a shining light on a hill for all the world to see how good “God's” ways were versus the “ways of man”.  If slavery was part of that shining example – and it was – then I'd have to mark the whole thing down as a really bad example of how a “godly” society should behave, regardless of the time period.

Also, there is never a time in our history when making a rape victim spend the rest of her life with her rapist could have possibly been right.

This concludes my time of consideration.  

[WhatIsTrue]

Ed,

Got it.

The bible is filled with bad laws that made it necessary to amend it, just like the US Constitution needs amendments to correct the mistakes and oversights of the men who originally wrote it.

Hhhmm, I wonder if that means the laws in the bible were really just written by ancient men with an ancient understanding of morality?

Nah, it's more likely that “God” just made a bunch of mistakes.

[WhatIsTrue]

Ok bodhitharta, if you want to play dumb, I will accommodate you – for now.

Let's do some good old fashioned exegesis!

What happens to a woman, who is married or engaged, who willingly has sex with someone who is not her husband?  And what happens to the man who sleeps with her.

Deuteronomy 22:22:
If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24:
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death – the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

OK, so far, things are pretty clear.

Now, what happens when a man forces himself on another man's wife or fiance?  What happens to the unwilling woman?

Deuteronomy 22:25-26:
But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor … .

OK, still clear.

What about a woman who has sex before she is married or engaged?  What happens to her?  What happens to the man who sleeps with her?

Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Hhmmm, interesting.  So a woman who is promiscuous, by having sex even just one time, is an evil thing that must be purged.  Note that no attempt is made to find the man that she slept with.  Apparently, he need not be purged.

So what's going on here:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and [?]s her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

No stoning for the woman?  How can that be if she has been “promiscuous in her father's house”?  Did we not just learn that such women are an evil thing and must be purged?

What is the only exception that we have seen in these verses that allows a woman to live after having sex with a man to whom she is not married?  That's right folks!  She has to be an unwilling participant!

I think that we can remove the question mark from the verse above, and fill in the word rape – just like the NIV (and a few other translations) do.

If you don't understand this, bodhitharta, I can only assume that your “playing dumb” bit is not an act.

As for the man, his “punishment” is to get the woman that he lusted after.  Problem solved!

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:08)

Preventing outbursts in an assembly is hardly abusive, why would you think otherwise?

Preventing outbursts or silencing women?

If this passage is about “prevent outbursts”, why does it read, “Let your women keep silent…” as opposed to, “Let no one speak out of turn …”, or something along those lines?

You're not fooling anyone, Ed.

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Do you know of any accounts of Israelis owning slaves, or this just another irrelevant post against Christianity?

First of all, Leviticus 25:45-46 alone is enough evidence that Israelis owned slaves, but just for good measure, let's add in a line from the Holy Wikipedia:

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Like their Christian and Muslim neighbors, Jews owned slaves and participated in the slave trade.

Oh, and how about one more from a news article:

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The US State Department divides countries into three tiers. Tier 1 is for countries that have successfully implemented measures to control trafficking (most Western countries fall into this category). Tier 2 is for countries that are trying to eradicate this modern day slavery but still fail to meet the necessary standards. Tier 3 is reserved for countries that have not addressed the issue at the most basic level. In 2006, Israel was on the US State Department's Watch List for people trafficking. “This position falls between Tier 2 and Tier 3. The US applies economic sanctions to those countries which fall into Tier 3, but as we have a strong economic relationship with the US, Israel was given a warning and placed in a slightly higher category,” said Lewkowicz.

Yes, Ed, the bible condones slavery, and anyone who isn't simply blindly defending the bible at all costs, (like you are), can see that quite clearly.

[WhatIsTrue]

bodhitharta,

Nice try, but you need to address the following before we continue discussing anything.

You wrote:

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Then you lied and said the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant never crossed your mind and of course it did if it didn't you wouldn't assume it to be the case.

I responded:

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Before you accuse someone of lying, you better be damned sure of what you are saying. Show me where I mention anything about this until after you brought it up.  If you can't, you should be ashamed of yourself for such careless slander, and you should publicly correct your mistake.

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