David,It's this simple:Messiah was obedient.  Does that mean we are now all righteous?  If not, why not?  After all, the verse says, “through the obedience of the one many will be constituted righteous.”We can spit in YHWH's face, turn our back on Him, and curse His Holy Spirit, but we will still be righteous because of Messiah's obedience.  I…[Read more]

David,For the record, this is now about the eleventh post on Romans 5:19.You wrote:Quote Since you or I are clearly confused as to what is being compared, and since that is not the real issue anyone, but whether Adam's actions constituted us sinners, we need not look at the second half of the verse.  The first part of the verse is true, isn't it?…[Read more]

Sultan,Nice to see you still around in this discussion.You wrote:Quote Whatistrue,Your statement is not totally true, The scriptures say that Eve was deceived:And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression (1 Tim 2:14)Her desire was based on deception. The deception created a desire that was false, but now that…[Read more]

David,I thought for sure we were done here, but we can keep going around if you like.  For the record, this is the ninth, or so, post on Romans 5:19.You wrote:Quote I still think this shatters what you are saying and is very clear.  I don't believe any amount of re-wording will change the basic truth stated in this verse:Adam's disobedience made m…[Read more]

David, You wrote:Quote Ok, there was this guy who came to be called Satan the Devil.  He put the desire in Adam, actually first in Eve, making the tree look like something to be desired.So, the devil made him do it?   Funny, that was essentially Adam's defense too, but YHWH didn't buy it.  Neither do I.Human nature:”But each one is tempted when he…[Read more]

David,You wrote:Quote I don't think we're going in circles at all.  If we're still discussing this verse in a couple pages….then circles.Fair enough.  Let's continue until one of us changes his mind or says “uncle”.   You wrote:Quote I don't understand how you can see this verse differently.  Yes, it's comparing two things.  But if we simp…[Read more]

Where is Sultan when you need him?  Do we not begin to go in circles here?   You presented me with three verses.  I explained them one way.  Now, you explain them another.  Shall I re-explain them a different way from you again, or is it clear, (as I said in a previous post), that we will do nothing but go in circles if we try to approach the disc…[Read more]

OK David, let's look at the verses you brought up.  (I am going to quote them using a different translation than the one you are using, but in most cases, there isn't much of a difference.)Passage #1:Romans 5:19Quote For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.This verse says…[Read more]

Sultan,You have completely misunderstood, (and misrepresented), my position.You wrote:Quote It is not Paul's word vs. Jesus. It is all God's Word.Where did I ever say that it was “Paul versus Jesus”?  Where did I say that we must pick and choose what parts of the word to believe?  Let me clarify my position so that you don't mistake it again:Not a…[Read more]

David and Sultan,I think that we are beginning to go in circles here, and I am not sure how productive this discussion is at this point.  But, I will try to clarify my position again in the hopes that we can reach a reasonable conclusion.  Cubes and I came to the conclusion that we would just have to disagree.  We may need to do the same.Sultan wr…[Read more]

David,Either I have not been clear about my position, or you are misunderstanding, (or misrepresenting), my argument.  Let me be clear:I do not believe that anyone is born with sin.  We are each responsible for our own sins.  We do not inherit guilt from our fathers.Having said that, let's look at your last post.You wrote:Quote It seems that Je…[Read more]

David,You wrote:Quote It is undeniable, though, that children can suffer consequences because of their parents’ actions.I agree.  Sin has consequences.  Cain killed Abel.  Abel was innocent of the crime but he suffered the consequences.  Suffering the consequences of sin and being guilty of sin are two different things.  (e.g. Yahshua on the tr…[Read more]

Right.  So they made extra special care to only act like the pagans but not to think like them.  That's tricky business, but they certainly must have been experts!  

Get ready for another “semantic” post, Cubes.   If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying:We inherit “sin guilt” which causes our first death, and we are responsible for our own sins in the second death.Is that correct?If so, I would slightly disagree and state it this way:We lost access to the tree of life because of Adam's sin, which causes…[Read more]

liljon wrote:Quote You have given no proof of christinizing beliefs but only of practices.Yes, liljon, traditional christianity only practices paganism.  They don't believe in it.  

Cubes, T8, and David,I re-read this discussion topic to make sure that I understood where everyone was coming from, and I noticed something quite remarkable:Not one of you has addressed the most relevant scriptural passage on this topic!It's been quoted at least a couple of times, and not one of you has had anything to say about it.  Yet, it is…[Read more]

Cubes,I was all set to just agree to disagree with you until you said this:Quote Finally, speaking of Christ's humanity, you make a good point WIT:  yes, he became like one of us and so we shall have to say that through Mary, he also had inherited sin which is also the only reason he could die at all.  He had a bit of that mutated nature making i…[Read more]

David,You wrote:Quote Quote We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.”  The wages of sin is death.  Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin. I think the above is a good point by Cubes.You are right.  I did fail to address this point.  Think about this:Yahshua was wit…[Read more]

Sultan,Are you the same guy who wrote the following in another discussion?Quote I understand the scriptures to mean what they say and say what they mean (contexually). I don't need to add or take away.I see a lot of speculation, (i.e. “adding”), in your last two posts, especially your post about the “image of Adam”.  The texts say one thing, and…[Read more]

Cubes and T8,The question at hand is whether or not babies are born “with sin”, or more accurately, born guilty of sin.  However, we can't even have a coherent dialogue on this subject without first defining what “sin” is.  To me, that is the heart of this discussion.  I believe that scripturally, sin is defined for us in 1 John 3:4:”…sin is th…[Read more]