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[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2009,10:21)

TrinitarianCalvinist27 wrote: Quote If all you do is research through Wikipedia then you prove your own ignorance of what is reliable information. A Hebrew Interlinear Bible is more substantial than Wikipedia. Sorry. That sounds like you prefer to remain ignorant and are cherry pick one tertiary source over another.   I use Wikipedia because I have access to it and it is a summary of the research on the subject.  If some of its information is in error then that can be revealed by testing it against other sources.   I have little patience for what appears to be arrogance and see no reason to deal with Pharisees who enjoy their own righteousness and thus refuse to pursue God’s. You would appear more humble if you actually presented evidence and appears to consider that evidence that contradicts your point of view.

Kerwin,

Apparently you have not read my other posts in other threads. Until you actually know how I debate you might want to stay clear of accusations.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,09:55)

Hi TC, And where does scripture tell you that He did not reproduce? Thanks, Kathi

Kathi,

Where it says that Jesus existed in the very beginning.

Genesis 1:26-27

Quote

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,       in the image of God he created him;       male and female he created them.

Colossians 1:15-20

Quote

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

*Firstborn here does not mean as in first to be born of God, or anything of the sort. It merely means that he is the owner of creation. It was Hebrew culture to give the properties of a land to the firstborn in the household. Therefore, this verse shows that he has the same right over creation as a firstborn does over his father's land.

John 8:58

Quote

58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Kathi,

Trinitarians never claim that God CAN'T reproduce, we claim that he DID NOT reproduce. We are not questioning God's ability here, we are merely stating what he did and what he did not do based on what Scripture tells us.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2009,21:42)

If you wish to get somewhat more informed to check out what wikipedia states here about the word Elohim instead of embracing outdated notions that did not take into effect the context of word use. If you do not want to do the research then I see no reason to discuss it.

Kerwin,

If all you do is research through Wikipedia then you prove your own ignorance of what is reliable information. A Hebrew Interlinear Bible is more substantial than Wikipedia. Sorry.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 31 2009,11:38)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ Aug. 01 2009,05:57) Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,07:39) Jodi……….Amen sis, you've got It. Elohim simply means Powers and there are Seven Spirit Powers of GOD. This is the “Let US” referred to in Geneses , When it says LORD GOD , it simply means LORD (He Exists) GOD (with powers) Elohim is a uni-Plural word  ONE GOD with Multiple POWERS. The LORD shares these Powers with his whole creation, some in a lesser way and some in a greater way You have it right.  Is it interesting with all those scriptures you posted Trinitarians can't even understand the simple truth that Jesus is Not GOD himself. Amazing !. It is refreshing to see the soundness of GOD'S spirit at work in Some.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene Gene, If Elohim simply means “powers” as you say (which it can), then why does it follow directly after Yahweh in Genesis 3:22? In Genesis 3:22, it is directly translated from the Hebrew, Yahweh Elohim, to Lord God. So in this circumstance Elohim does not simply mean power. You need to look at it in context.   TC27 I have the Mechanical Translation of the Book of Genesis by Jeff A. Benner, who is founder I believe of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center, it reads Genesis 3:22 and “YHWH [He exists]” of “Elohiym [Powers]” said, though the human had existed……. 3:23 and “YHWH [He exists]” of “Elohiym [Powers]” sent him from the garden of “Eden [Pleasure]” to serve the ground which from there he was taken, YHWH exists with Powers. We see that it is those Powers or Elohiym that creates the heavens and the earth. The Powers exist through ONE person who's name is YHWH. There is ONE person who is the ONE True God and that is the Father, He is the One True God because there is NO one else that has His Powers. As Gene said, God is able to give these Powers to messengers. Moses and Jesus are two examples of men given the use of God's Powers, and as well the angles are often given certain Powers of God to accomplish the will of God.

Jodi,

Your translation taken from this Jeff A. Benner guy is incorrect. Read the Hebrew Interlinear. The “of” is not in there. Stop adding to Scripture.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Everyone,

Why is clear Scripture so hard to see?

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,07:39)

Jodi……….Amen sis, you've got It. Elohim simply means Powers and there are Seven Spirit Powers of GOD. This is the “Let US” referred to in Geneses , When it says LORD GOD , it simply means LORD (He Exists) GOD (with powers) Elohim is a uni-Plural word  ONE GOD with Multiple POWERS. The LORD shares these Powers with his whole creation, some in a lesser way and some in a greater way You have it right.  Is it interesting with all those scriptures you posted Trinitarians can't even understand the simple truth that Jesus is Not GOD himself. Amazing !. It is refreshing to see the soundness of GOD'S spirit at work in Some.  IMO Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………gene

Gene,

If Elohim simply means “powers” as you say (which it can), then why does it follow directly after Yahweh in Genesis 3:22? In Genesis 3:22, it is directly translated from the Hebrew, Yahweh Elohim, to Lord God. So in this circumstance Elohim does not simply mean power. You need to look at it in context.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 30 2009,08:08)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,06:45) Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ July 30 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,12:11) Hi TT, How do you pray to an impersonal community god? Did the one we follow do so? Jesus is the community and He is God. Jesus said that no one can be saved except they worship Him as The Father. That is why as thinker said his name on earth was “God Saves” because he was teaching everyone how to love Him in spirit. If Jesus doesn't save you nick you will not be saved. Jesus is God in the flesh and if you deny God in the flesh you deny God in the spirit. You can't make your own way up nick you must accept the authority of the Pope and take communion otherwise you mock God. EF, I confess that Jesus is God but deny that He is the Father. Yours is just another of the many faces of anti-trinitarianism. thinker Thinker, Yes! Exactly. I pointed this out on another thread to something EFJ said. I think he means well but says it wrong. TC27

EFJ,

I realize now that we do not at all agree. Jesus is not the Father. They are separate persons. I have to disagree with your view here because you claim that the persons are not separate, which they are.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,06:45)

Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ July 30 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,12:11) Hi TT, How do you pray to an impersonal community god? Did the one we follow do so? Jesus is the community and He is God. Jesus said that no one can be saved except they worship Him as The Father. That is why as thinker said his name on earth was “God Saves” because he was teaching everyone how to love Him in spirit. If Jesus doesn't save you nick you will not be saved. Jesus is God in the flesh and if you deny God in the flesh you deny God in the spirit. You can't make your own way up nick you must accept the authority of the Pope and take communion otherwise you mock God. EF, I confess that Jesus is God but deny that He is the Father. Yours is just another of the many faces of anti-trinitarianism. thinker

Thinker,

Yes! Exactly. I pointed this out on another thread to something EFJ said. I think he means well but says it wrong.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

To all,

One God. Three persons of God. NOT HARD!

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Irene,

You were so adament about the fact that LORD in all caps in the Old Testament meant something. Then I come back with proof that your interpretations were false and you do not give me a counter response. I will assume that you have no argument on this issue, seeing as what I said makes more sense than you care to admit.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (942767 @ July 29 2009,11:45)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 30 2009,07:31) Marty said: Quote Hi TC27: You say that Jesus did not correct the Pharisees when they indicated that Jesus was making himself equal to God but let's read these series of verses in context, and see what you think: Quote   Jhn 5:18   Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.   Jhn 5:19   Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.   Jhn 5:20   For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.   Jhn 5:21   For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.   Jhn 5:22   For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:   Jhn 5:23   That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.   What do you think did he correct them or not.  He said he could do nothing of himself but only that the Father showed him.  It seems to me that by this he was saying that he was not equal to God. What does the scripture that states “For in him all the fulness of diedty dwells in bodily form” mean to you?  I gave you my answer by saying that the Spirit of God dwells within the body of Christ fromt he head to the toe. This is the scripture in context: Quote   Col 2:6   As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:   Col 2:7   Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.   Col 2:8   Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.   Col 2:9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.   Col 2:10   And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: And so, what are you saying this means to you? Love in Christ, Marty Wow Marty, Ok, so the fact that Jesus said all things that the Father does had to be shown to him was because HE WAS IN THE FLESH! This means that he had not been exalted yet! It isn't hard. He took on the flesh and made himself lesser as it says in Philippians 2. He was then axalted to the equality of the Father as it also says in Philippians 2. This means that while Jesus was on earth he depended on the Father to show him the ways, but only because HE COSE to bcome one of us. In choosing this he shows his sovereignty. Oh and read my post to Nish about the Colossians verse. TC27 But you said that Jesus didn't correct the Pharisees.  Did you not?

Marty,

He did not correct them because he was still God even if he was in a more humble state at that period in time. It was only a temporary humility to become man. He knew and looked forward to his exaltation.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,14:12)

Did Jesus not say, that His Father is greater then I. John 14:28  …. I am going to my Father, cause my FATHER IS GREATER THEN I.  Also in Ephesians 4:6 ….one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all. Pretty clear to me that only the Father is greater then the Son.  Whether the Father gave Him all Authority or not.  If my boss gives me Authority over His Business, does that make me the Boss?  And so you  can  look at that, also with God, the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, of the Father.  I also said before that just because Jesus was called God, means not that He is equal with the Father.  God is only a tittle.  To understand all we have to look at all Scriptures involved.  And you know that those who are Baptized are called the Children of God or Sons of God.  IMO I look at it like a Family Name–the Family of God and Jesus is and was the firstborn of all creation. Rev. 3:14 Peace and Love Irene Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

He said that before he was exalted. What is so hard to understand about that? Really?

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Everlasting father Jesus @ July 29 2009,16:35)

Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 25 2009,05:00) Anti-trinitarians claim that only the Father is sovereign. Well guess what, in the book of Jude, Jesus is referred to as sovereign. Jude verse 4: Quote 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jesus in this verse is called sovereign. Ok, so what does sovereign mean? Definition taken from dictionary.com. Quote –adjective 5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal. 6. having supreme rank, power, or authority. 7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.   8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme. 9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc. Here we see that sovereign means of supreme rank, greatest in degree, and utmost. If anti-trinitarians are correct in saying that Jesus is not God then there is a problem here. This is because only God can be the utmost with supreme power. So how can Jesus be sovereign unless he is God? We do not have two sovereign powers. Just one, our Sovereign God that exists in three persons. Yes, Jesus is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit He is the living and the dead He is the flesh and the spirit

EFJ,

I understand your intentions when you say “Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” but you must be very careful in how you word this. GOD is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son only. We trinitarians cannot claim that the Son is also the Father and the Holy Spirit because they are separate persons. God is the generic word for all three persons of God.

Thank you for your post, and I do understand what you meant!

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,11:33)

Hi TC, So PART of GOD became less than God and yet was God? Give us back simplicity.

Nick,

That  is your problem. You expect everything to be simple and when you find something to be slightly complicated (which it isn't) you throw it out the window. Very sad.  

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2009,08:04)

Hi and welcome pel, Scripture never says so but the JWs do.

Nick,

That is a lie. I do not claim that Jesus was an angel. Where do you get this stuff?

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,11:32)

Hi TC, You have to fall back on weak theology because scripture does not support your ideas? Jesus said he is the Son of God but you ignore him.

Nick,

How is that weak theology? It takes knowledge of the Hebrew language to understand Scripture. Apparently my knowledge of the Hebrew is only weak in your opinion because it disagrees with your beliefs. Why don't you bring more to the table then just silly accusations of my weak theology?

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Marty said:

Quote

Hi TC27: You say that Jesus did not correct the Pharisees when they indicated that Jesus was making himself equal to God but let's read these series of verses in context, and see what you think: Quote Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. What do you think did he correct them or not. He said he could do nothing of himself but only that the Father showed him. It seems to me that by this he was saying that he was not equal to God. What does the scripture that states “For in him all the fulness of diedty dwells in bodily form” mean to you? I gave you my answer by saying that the Spirit of God dwells within the body of Christ fromt he head to the toe. This is the scripture in context: Quote Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: And so, what are you saying this means to you? Love in Christ, Marty

Wow Marty,

Ok, so the fact that Jesus said all things that the Father does had to be shown to him was because HE WAS IN THE FLESH! This means that he had not been exalted yet! It isn't hard. He took on the flesh and made himself lesser as it says in Philippians 2. He was then axalted to the equality of the Father as it also says in Philippians 2. This means that while Jesus was on earth he depended on the Father to show him the ways, but only because HE COSE to bcome one of us. In choosing this he shows his sovereignty.

Oh and read my post to Nish about the Colossians verse.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 29 2009,10:55)

Hi TC, The fullness of deity DWELLED IN JESUS. Yet you think he is that Deity? Do you dwell within yourself? That would make you two.

Nick,

You have an elementary way of thinking. Yes, I do dwell in myself. My spirit lives within my body. You have proven nothing.

TC27

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Cindy @ July 29 2009,08:57)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,04:20) Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,03:56) Gene and thinker!  I am so amazed that some just don't want to understand no matter what you put in front of them.  God, LORD, Almighty God, Almighty Father, Heavenly Father.  All tittles.  So Jesus the Word, Jesus the Lord, and Son of God.  That is why Jehovah God is called Heavenly Father, and we are His adopted Sons of our Heavenly Father.  Why do we call our Fathers, Father?  Is it not because you had something to do with that?  Jesus came forth from the Father or Jehovah God.   Notice that there is LORD and Lord.  The difference is LORD is the Father God and Lord is the Son of God.  When you understand all of that, you will not have any problems. Peace and Love Irene Irene, Jesus' Father is never called His King or Lord. My father is not my king or lord. thinker thinker I just read my Post again and I did not say that the Father is King of Kings andLord of Lords. I said that the Father is LORD in capital Letters and Lord is Jesus.  The Father is not called the King of Kings. Read it again. Irene

Irene,

Do you really think that capital letters make a difference? Has it ever occured to you that the LORD capitalized in the Old Testament was referring to translation differences? In Hebrew, YAHWEH was the word for God. In the Old Testament, every time you see the word “LORD” in all caps it is a translation directly for YAHWEH. Now, history must be taken into account when we look at the New Testament where Jesus is called “Lord.” At that time in history, the name YAHWEH was too sacred to say aloud, at least according to the Jews. So they substituted the YAHWEH for Adonai. Adonai means Lord.

Dictionary.com:

Quote

A⋅do⋅nai  /Seph. ˌɑdɔˈnaɪ; Ashk. ˌɑdoʊˈnɔɪ/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [Seph. ah-daw-nahy; Ashk. ah-doh-noi]  Show IPA Use Adonai in a Sentence –noun Hebrew. a title of reverence for God, serving also as a substitute pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton. Also, A⋅do⋅noy  /ˌɑdoʊˈnɔɪ/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [ah-doh-noi]  Show IPA . ——————————————————————————– Origin: lit., my Lord; spoken in place of the ineffable name Yahweh n.  Lord. Used in Judaism as a spoken substitute for the ineffable name of God. [Hebrew 'ādônāy, my lord : 'ādôn, lord; see d in Semitic roots + -ay, my.]

So the fact that Jesus was called Lord by the Jews proves that he was God because they could not speak YAHWEH since it was too sacred to speak. So they substituted it for Adonai, which is Hebrew for Lord. So in the Old Testament, LORD is capitalized to represent a translation of YAHWEH, and in the New Testament, Lord is used to represent a translation of Adonai.

Irene, you only hurt yourself by bringing up the topic of capitalization, because that does not hurt the trinitarian belief at all.

Here is a site to check out.

http://www.studychurchhistory.com/Tetragrammaton.htm

Quote

Let’s say that you are reading the Old Testament and come to Psalms 95:1:  “Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.”  Notice anything odd about that verse?  The word “LORD” is in all capitals.  In fact, “LORD” in all capital letters appears more than 6000 times in the Old Testament.  But why?    To find the beginning of the answer we have to travel back to Moses and the Burning Bush.  (Exodus 3:1-4:17)  Moses sees a light on the side of a mountain and goes to investigate.  Once there, God speaks to Moses.  God tells Moses he is to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.  Then—and this is the key to knowing about LORD—Moses asks God for God’s name:  God says his name is “I am.”  In Hebrew this is “Yahweh.”    Now, I have long thought that this was one of the funniest verses in the Bible.  Think about Moses’ view.  The Israelites have been worshipping God for 500 years (since Abraham) and the whole time that they have been slaves (400 of those years) without knowing God’s name.  Finally one of them, Moses, gets to ask God His name.  And what does He say?  “I am.”  Moses was probably thinking, “I am what?”  Moses might have been waiting on God to finish the sentence.  He might have thought, “Is that the best God can do?  I am?  What kind of name is that?”  But what was God trying to show with that name?  Try this:  make a sentence with action without using the verb “to be.”  Examples:  I am running, we are eating, they are reading.  The verb “to be” is foundational to language.  What God was showing was that He is foundational to existence.  God is not a name, He Is and that is all.  Nothing else needs to be added.    Now, we have the name of God and we understand its significance.  Fast forward to Jesus’ time.  By then, the Jews had developed the idea that God’s name was so holy that it could not be uttered.  When Jews read from the Tanak (which Christians call the Old Testament) and got to the name of God, “Yahweh,” they would not pronounce “Yahweh” but would instead say “Adonai,” which means (you guessed it) “Lord.”      When the Old Testament was translated into English, the translators continued to signify the holiness of God’s name.  So, when they got to Yahweh in the Old Testament, they wrote LORD instead.  If you look through the Old Testament you will see lots of LORDs, over 6000.  In each case, the original Hebrew says “Yahweh” but it is translated “LORD.”      You can actually write Yahweh in Hebrew by using your Bible.  Psalm 119 is the longest chapter in the Bible, and it is also divided into sections of eight verses per section.  And each section begins with a letter of the Hebrew alphabet.  [Not every Bible is divided in this way.  If yours is not, check a different translation.  The NIV and King James are divided this way.]  I can spell out the name of God in Hebrew, “Yahweh,” using Psalm 119.  This is how it works.  I will give the verse and you can look right above that verse and see a letter of the Hebrew alphabet.  Before we get started let me say these two things:  In Hebrew, “Yahweh” only uses four letters, and Hebrew is written from right-to-left (English is from left-to-right).  Here we go:  look above verse 73 and you will see a Yodh, look over verse 33 and you will see a He, look over verse 41 and you will see a Waw, look over verse 33 again and see the He.  So from right-to-left write those letters:  Yodh, He, Waw, He.  That is Yahweh in Hebrew.

TC27

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