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[Shania]

i also just love this subject as it is practical and vital to our walk. i welcome any discussion.

[Shania]

ed- i do feel like i understand your suggestions. Bottom line is the attitude of “how can I serve my Father and benefit the Kingdom?” that is a really sweet heart- the heart of the Bride. thats my usual MO- and spending lots of time in prayer to find out what is on His heart. The purpose 4 starting this topic was to see what others are doing–if I'm missi ng soomething. i would like to make a major move as there is some trauma in my family and i live out of state. i have set up a fleece. I am working on getting counseling session from leadership.

[Shania]

i truly appreciate all the responses. How do you guys think this applies to major and minor life decisions? Career changes, major moves, ect…

[Shania]

thanks ed- i know the scripture/ i know that its vital/ what i'm asking is how it is played out in real life / how has it affected you/ what does walking in the spirit mean to you and how do you do it / what are the steps

[Shania]

It seems to me that the real important thing is to walk like Jesus did. That's what water baptism is a symbol of: dying to yourself/your sin, and being made new and alive in Messiah. Whether you are water baptized or not, you can and should walk in the principle of it. Moreover, whether you believe in the trinity or not you can and should walk as Jesus walked. Completely surrendered, obediant, doing only what the Father told him. This is the walk of a true disciple b/c He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Water baptism is not a salvation issue. Neither is whether or not you believe in the trinity. The real issue is whats in your heart. Do you love Him? Do you obey Him?

When we personally attack each other, who are we manifesting?

[Shania]

Rom 13:8

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
NIV

Rom 13:8

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
NIV

1 Cor 8:1-3
a Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
NIV

[Shania]

-What is the “tri-une name?” Is it the phrase, 'in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit?'

-If so, how come we never hear the disciples use this phrase, nevermind water baptizing- did they ever use it?

– Do you think it strange that “the father” “the son” and “the holy spirit” are not names?

[Shania]

How does this line up?

Rev 21:1
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth , for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
NIV

But really, why is this being argued? What does it have to do with our own personal walks with God? How is it affecting the readers?

[Shania]

Let's say I'm an alcoholic. I get saved, but still have a chemical addiction in my body. I know that if I have one drink, I will not be able to stop and I will do much damage to myself and loved ones.

If I now have a drink, (and get drunk), is that a sin? Or is it not a sin simply because I'm a christian? It's still the same act and still has the same damaging effects, but are you saying that because I believe in Jesus I can go on doing what I've always done and it is no longer sin?

[Shania]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 10 2010,16:43)

Jesus didn't follow the law, Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus worked on the sabbath, didn't pay temple tax until attention was brought, didn't follow washings, ate and drank with what you would call sinners. Jesus didn't offer sacrifices in the temple. Jesus didn't honor the laws' Sabbath Day. Jesus didn't follow anyone or anything. Jesus was a leader of all leaders. Jesus didn't baptize with water. So how well do we know this Jesus? Jesus was under no one's law.

I agree with you that Jesus was not 'religious' and 'legalistic.'  That's actually one of my favorite things about him!  The only thing that I don't agree with is when you said “Jesus didn't follow anyone or anything.” and “Jesus was under no one's law.”  That's not true.  He was under his Father's:

John 10:18
this command I received from my Father .”  
NIV

John 10:37-38
37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.
NIV

John 14:31
31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
NIV

John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
NIV

Submission is key to the Kingdom.  Why?  Because in YHWH's Kingdom, only His will is accomplished.  So we submit to Jesus (Yahuashua) and He submits to YHWH.  Jesus set aside his own will to do His father's and we have to do the same.  If He had to resist temptation and resist his own will, why wouldn't we?  He's the pattern son.

I am not saying 'you need to be moral in everything you choose and society will show you whats right and wrong'  
No, even doing the 'right' thing with the wrong heart motive can be sin.  Like if I wanted to memorize the bible in order to beat people over the head with it.

[Shania]

Hi TK!

It's true: Jesus set the adulteress free and did not condemn her, and this is what he said:

John 8:9-11
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
NIV

I am not denying forgiveness of sin. We would be in a HEAP of trouble if not forgiven. But he did tell her to leave her life of sin. (so that means that it was sin, and she needed to stop)

Once you become a believer, you are washed clean. Your walk will not be perfect and you will stumble. That is what grace is for. You repent, you are forgiven, and you are clean again. As you mature, your love grows and you stumble less and less. However, a warning goes out to those who deliberately continue in sin after recieving the knowledge of the truth:

Heb 10:26-27

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

I am curious- what do you think that verse means?
My thought is that if they 'recieved' the knowledge, at one point it belonged to them- it was a part of them. But they still managed to sin! I don't understand how your logic could explain that.

[Shania]

Haven't read all the posts but it seems ridiculous that there is need for this. Nobody on this earth has full complete knowledge of God or the inner workings of Heaven. If we tear people down for not sharing our personal opinion, whose team are we playing for? We believers are to be one as Messiah and the Father are one- so who's plan are we advancing when we act destructive toward each other? Hmm… if we were standing in front of Messiah how would we account for this behavior. "Well, I had lots of knowledge and people needed to be told what I thought about every issue and they needed to know that they were wrong!" Let's not focus on being "right", rather being "right with Him." The only thing that counts is faith working through love

[Shania]

I'm sorry TK, but I find a lot of what you wrote to be really dangerous. Sexual thoughts about someone who is not your spouse is sin. Are you saying that when you are a believer, you can do immoral things and it is not sin because you are not under the law? Grace does not nullify the law, it upholds it. Do you think that I can commit murder and it not be sin if my conscience does not condemn me? (b/c I am under grace?)

Paul addressed sin in the church. That means that believers were in sin and it was not ok. He had to address it for their own good- so that they would repent and be forgiven and move on to walk in righteousness. These believers did not feel guilty about it, but that did not mean that they weren't in sin.

Sin in the church: Believers CAN and DO sin, and it is addressed:
1 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife . 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?
NIV

1 Cor 5:6-8

6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast — as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
NIV

1 Cor 5:9-11

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
NIV

So there are people that think they are bretheren but are not b/c their hearts are not right. They are doing these things and refusing repentance.

1 Cor 6:7-10

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers. (sin among believers: its a real thing. It happens.)

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
NIV

{so if you do these things and don't repent, you will not enter}

1 Cor 6:11
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
NIV (This gives us hope. You can be washed and made brand new no matter what you've done. Sanctified means set apart. So obviously they are set apart from the things they used to do. They aren't doing those things anymore. That is real repentance.

1 Cor 6:18-19

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. (again: written to believers)
NIV

1 Cor 6:18-20
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
NIV
(said to believers)
Matt 5:27-28

27 “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery .' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
NIV
(new covenant is a higher standard)
Rom 3:28-29
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
NIV

-you quoted this and it is true, but the new covenant is actually a higher standard than the law b/c it is walking in love- in the spirit of Messiah. So at the end of that paragraph, we have this verse:
Rom 3:30-31
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law .
NIV

[Shania]

If you really wanna kick this habit, I would recommend telling someone about it face to face. Preferebly a church leader of yours or a brother who can keep you accountable. If you are married, you need to tell your wife. Also, I know that there are churches who have small groups that deal with this issue: kind of like AA. You need accountability and you need to be aggressive and confrontational in overcoming it. This could destroy you. Just like an alcoholic, get rid of everything you can that is an avenue to porn. Get rid of your home computer. Only use the internet in public.
It is good that you want to overcome! Like others have said, stay in the word! He loves you so much!

[Shania]

Sin separates us from God. Messiah did not die so that we could walk in sin and it magically be covered by grace. When you walk in the flesh, you are opposed to God. The new covenant is walking in the spirit, being a slave to righteousness. Having the spirit of Messiah (complete submission to the Father, doing everything out of love) What sums up the law? Love. If we walk in love, we will not sin. Can you sin as a christian and still be a christian? Absolutely! Must you repent? Absolutely! But you cannot walk as a heathen with no intent of changing and still expect grace to cover you. {I am not accusing anybody of saying this, but one could draw that conclusion from certain posts made}

Rom 8:9-17

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation — but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
NIV

Heb 10:26

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
NIV

James 2:14

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
NIV

[Shania]

Don't worry about satan. Trust God. Jesus said that you would suffer. (He also said that with Him you will overcome). You will either suffer for your own choices or for righteoussness. It's normal and common. We've all made bad choices and we all deserve hell. Thank YHWH that we do not get what we deserve. He is with you and He loves you. He is for you, not against you. Don't focus on your enemy. Focus on Him. There are no victims in the Kingdom.

[Shania]

Quote

Not so, the NT and the OT tell us that the Torah's core message is love. Every commandment in the Torah is infused with love, which is why Yeshua stated that the entire Torah hangs on the two greatest commandments. The Torah's message was always about love. It didnt change and was nothing new when Yeshua came. Judaism has always taught that the Torah is about love. A person who keeps Torah without love is not keeping the Torah.

I agree with you, ASH. Our Father was always ALL about love. That has never changed. But what I am saying is that if you walk in love, you will fulfill the law- we are even called to go above and beyond what the law called for, because that is what love does.

Yeshua's disciples broke the law on purpose in front of the Pharisees (walking through a wheat field picking off grains during the sabbath)- and Yeshua defended them by referencing David and the High Priests- I'll have to look it up later and post it for you.

[Shania]

Matt 5:33-6:1

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

38 “You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile , go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

NIV

This whole chapter is talking about how love is greater than the law- the purpose of the law was to spur the Jews onto love. Jesus exposes this and selfish heart motives to follow law in order to feel righteous- but you cannot be righteous w/o love. If you walk in love, you will fulfill the law. So the law is not bad, or thrown away, but the purpose is exposed. We were not called to be religious.. we were called to love.

[Shania]

Nick is right about Mt 19- Jesus walked in love and love requires more than the OT law did. The purpose of the law was to expose sin, but since all sin begins with selfishness and love is only selflessness, love sums up the law- love supercedes the law. If you are asked to walk one mile, go two….

[Shania]

My post needs to be edited. That first verse shouldn't be there.

[Author]

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