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[Ramblinrose]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 26 2006,22:08)

Quote The following information be prove useful: Hebrews Chapter 1 RamblinRose Another promoter of Arianism I see. Have you truly checked the website out to see its herisys?

WJ

I looked up what 'arianism' was on wikipedia and from the description offered – no, I am not one.

I do not believe the Yahshua existed in any form before his birth. I believe Yahshua to be the Messiah – not God. I believe him to be a humanbeing 100%. I believe he is the one spoken of by YHWH through the prophets.

I am not part of any Church group or denomination.

Regards

[Ramblinrose]

The following information be prove useful:

Hebrews Chapter 1

[Ramblinrose]

Hi Cubes,

Yes I agree. The seed of David, House of Judah, etc etc Yahshua was the one promised – the Messiah. 100% human born of human parents.

Amen

[Ramblinrose]

Hi M42

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We need to KNOW our Father not just KNOW ABOUT Him.

I have already discussed the above with Nick in another topic somewhere. Not interested in going around in circles with him any more. I have made the decision that if I am to participate on this board I must ignore Nick’s posts.

A few of topics that I have had greater participated in under this same topic are:
Are we born with sin?
Conception – Was Jesus Conceived?
What is Man?
Who is Jesus?

Cheers

[Ramblinrose]

Part of my post has gone missing. Was supposed to have all the questions as below:

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From M42 1. Do you believe Jesus Christ is A. A part of a Triune God B. Fully Human (Body, soul, spirit, and will) C. A lesser God d. A dual natured creature 100% God and 100% man. 2 Do you believe Jesus Christ is the pattern son. The example for the rest of humanity? 3. Do you believe man has free will to choose to follow God or not? 4. Do you believe man has inherited sin from Adam?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (music4two @ Dec. 18 2006,00:30)

1. Do you believe Jesus Christ is A. A part of a Triune God

Hi M42
1. B – Fully Human (Body, soul, spirit, and will)
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No

Teachings – Torah. Torah brings us to a greater knowledge of YHWH. It is his guidance for us to know how to walk in love with our brother and with him.

[Ramblinrose]

Welcome music4two

Great posts but I am with Adam Pastor on the throne part.

I have done this dance with Nick before in the ‘Conception’ thread – same dance new partner.

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Greek word λόγος or logos is a word with various meanings. It is often translated into English as “Word” but can also mean thought, speech, meaning, reason, proportion, principle, standard, or logic, among other things.

Almighty YHWH had a plan of salvation. He spoke of this plan through the prophets. Yahshua is the ‘word’ in that he was the plan. He was the one spoken of by the prophets, the one they were all waiting for. He did not exist before his birth in any form. His existance before his birth was as a thought of one to come – one who was to be born 'when the fullness of time was come'.

[Ramblinrose]

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=154

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Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea, write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. (NIV)

1. As it is translated above, there is no Trinitarian inference in the verse. It agrees perfectly with what we know from the whole of Scripture: that God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

2. In the KJV, the word “ruler” (Greek = arche) is translated “beginning.” The word arche can mean “beginning,” “first” or “ruler.” When most people read the KJV, they say that Jesus Christ is the “beginning” of God’s original creation, and this has caused some people to say that the verse is Trinitarian, because Jesus would thus have been before everything else. If that interpretation is correct, then this verse would be a strong argument against the Trinity because then Christ would be a created being. “Arianism” is the doctrine that Christ was the first of all of God’s created things and that God then created everything else through Christ, and the way the KJV translates the verse can be understood as Arian.

3. It is possible (and some scholars do handle the verse this way) to understand the word “beginning” as applying to the beginning of the new ages that Christ will establish. If that were so, the verse would be similar to Hebrews 1:10. Christ, being the “firstborn from the dead,” would be the beginning of God’s new creation. Although it is certainly possible from a textual standpoint to handle the verse that way, the context of the verse is Christ ruling over his people. He is reproving and disciplining them (v. 19) and granting places beside him with the Father (v. 21). Thus, the translation of arche as “ruler” is a good translation and best fits the context. No one can argue with the fact that Christ is the ruler over all of God’s creation.

Broughton and Southgate, pp. 286-293

Snedeker, p. 470

[Ramblinrose]

Hi David

A few things I have pondered.

Herod had asked the Magi when they had first seen the star.

The discussions with the Magi do not reveal that the star was only appeared after the birth of Yahshua.

The Magi came to where the star was but it doesn't say that they did that immediately upon seeing it.

Stars change in brightness depending on their position to the earth – maybe it was at its brightest when they came to Bethlehem.

Is it possible that the star first appeared from the conception of Mary? If the star had first appeared at the conception of Yahshua, and based upon my thought that the Magi visited Mary after her 40 days of purification, that would mean the star would have first been seen around a year earlier.

This would work well with Herod, a cruel man, who then killed boys two years and under. He chose an age by which he would have been sure to have the child killed.

An interesting subject.

[Ramblinrose]

Hi David,

From researching the subject of the birth of Yahshua I have also come across the following which may interest you – hope you can follow it:

I believe that Mary and Joseph stayed with relatives when they went to Bethlehem and that they stayed in a guest room.

You will notice that the shepherds came to see them. The only clues they had to know the child was that it was to be:
1.in Bethlehem
2.wrapped in swaddling clothes and
3.lying in a manger
no mention of a stable at all.

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Luke2:8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 “For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 “And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying: 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!” 15 So it was, when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us now go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe lying in a manger.

1025 brefov brephos bref’-os
of uncertain affin.; TDNT-5:636,759; n n
AV-babe 5, child 1, infant 1, young child 1; 8
1) an unborn child, embryo, a foetus
2) , an infant, a babe

It would appear from the above that the shepherds visited shortly after the birth of Yahshua as they visited a ‘new born’ baby.

Now we come to the Magi who visited Yahshua in a house.

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Matthew 2: 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. 9 ¶ When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

3813 paidion paidion pahee-dee’-on
from dimin. of 3816; TDNT-5:636,759; n n
AV-child 25, little child 12, young child 10, damsel 4; 51
1) a young child, a little boy, a little girl
1a) infants
1b) children, little ones
1c) an infant
1c1) of a (male) child just recently born
1d) of a more advanced child; of a mature child;
1e) metaph. children (like children) in intellect

Reflecting on the different use of words for baby or young child it would appear that the shepherds came and saw a newborn baby yet the magi visited a slightly older child but not necessarily of two years.

If we wish to try to put Matthew and Luke together we always have a problem as to when the Magi came.

I would suppose the following:

The shepherds came and visited just after the birth. But I suggest the magi came some time after the 40 days of purification. I suggested this because of the offering that is required after having a child.

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Leviticus 12:8 ‘And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons—one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

From Luke we can gather that Mary and Joseph brought a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons, and not a lamb.

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22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the LORD”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.“

It would appear that they did not have the means to purchase a lamb. If the Magi had already been to visit they would have received the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh and would have had the means to purchase a lamb.

I suppose that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem and stayed with relatives. Baby Yahshua was born whilst they were there and they were visited by shepherds shortly after the birth. They remained in Bethlehem until after the days of purification at which time the Magi came to visit. It was after this visit that they left for Egypt and the gifts that the Magi had offered them would have given them means to survive in Egypt for a period of time.

Hope you have found that of interest.

Shalom

[Ramblinrose]

Bravo, Adam Pastor and WhatIsTrue

[Ramblinrose]

The following may be of interest:

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Most people have been influenced by their upbringing and things depicted in stories, children’s books, Christmas cards, etc. Many understand, from these influences that: •Mary rode on a donkey to Bethlehem. The bible does not say what mode of transport was used, only that both Mary and Joseph travelled to Bethlehem. It is reasonable to assume that they may have travelled with others who were to register and that Mary’s mode of transport was something other than riding on the back of a donkey. •Joseph knocked on inn doors looking for a room for himself and Mary. The current interpretation of Luke 2:7 has produced the above fabricated story as there is absolutely nothing written in the bible about Joseph knocking on inn doors. The word ‘inn’ can also be translated as ‘guest chamber’ as it was on each other occasion in the NT. This verse is covered further in the article. •Mary gave birth the night she arrived in Bethlehem. It appears more likely that they were there for a short period of time before the birth as the bible states, “while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered” (Luke 2:6). It is reasonable to assume that they arrived in Bethlehem some time before her due date. •Yahshua was born in a stable. The word stable is never used in the pages of the NT. Just because he was laid in a manger does not mean that he was born in a stable. •Three kings riding camels came to visit at Yahshua’s birth. The bible does not say that any kings or camels visited baby Yahshua, it does report that wise men (magi) came, but it does not say how many, that they were kings, what mode of transport they used or what country they were from – only that they were from the east and that they presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh (Matt 2:1-10) …… ………The words ‘while they were there’ indicate that they hadn’t just arrived in Bethlehem but had been there for a period of time before the baby was delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Reinterpretation: And she brought forth their firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger for there was no place for him in the guest chamber. Translator bias is obvious here as the underlined can justifiably be translated to show that the newborn baby was that of Mary and Joseph by using ‘their’ and not ‘her’. Is there also an error in the translation of the last part of verse 7? He was laid in a manger, as there was no other suitable place for a newborn child in the guest chamber. Guest-chamber (Easton’s Bible Dictionary) The spare room on the upper floor of an Eastern dwelling #Mr 14:14 #Lu 22:11 In #Lu 2:7 the word is translated “inn” (q.v.). Was Yahshua born in a stable? The word stable is never used in the whole of the NT. I believe that Mary and Joseph travelled to Bethlehem and stayed with relatives. They stayed in the guest chamber and placed Yahshua in a manger when he was born, as they had no other place to put their newborn son. A manger with soft straw as a mattress would suffice as a small cot for a baby. Would Joseph be that uncaring of his very expectant wife, to pop her on a donkey and travel a long distance with nowhere to stay when arriving? I don’t think any loving husband would do this. Luke 2:44 shows that when travelling to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover they travelled with kinsfolk and acquaintances. As others from the House of David would be travelling to Bethlehem to register they could have travelled in a group and then stayed with relatives when they arrived. Whilst they were there Mary delivered baby Yahshua and they placed him in a manger, as this was a perfect makeshift cot for a newborn baby to lie in.

Whilst many mangers were carved out of stone other were made of wood.

[Ramblinrose]

Adam Pastor – Excellent posts.

[Ramblinrose]

A baby has it's own blood source and not that of the mother. Nutrients are passed through the placenta to the fetus.

[Ramblinrose]

John 16:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

[Ramblinrose]

Matthew 1: 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

‘Before they came together’ is not about sexual relations it is in regard to living together.  Before they had come to live together (which was the final step of betrothel) Mary was found to be with child.

Matthew 1:25  And KNEW HER NOT till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”

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** quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls a new translation.  translated and with commentary.  michael wise, martin abegg, jr., & edward cook . pg 65. (harpersanfrancisco copyright 1996) “who lies with a pregnant woman when her monthly period ceases or lies with a man as one lies with a woman: these are the ones who violate the way”  a few of these words are guesses but the meaning is clear.

It appears that it was customary to not have sexual relations with your wife when she was with child.  Joseph had relations with her and she conceived a child and then he no longer had relations with her until after the child was born – as was the custom.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 05 2006,22:56)

Quote (Ramblinrose @ Aug. 05 2006,08:19) I also do not understand why Mary had to be a 'virgin' (as in never having had sex but be with child).  If we go back to the verses quoted in Isaiah 7:14 you will see that Isaiah had sexual relations with the prophetess and that a child was born (Isaiah 8.3)  This agrees with what I believe is the case with Mary.  Joseph had relations with her and she conceived – it is a parallel prophecy It is a very difficult topic and hard to change what we have believed for so many years.   I didn't come to my beliefs easily either, I struggled with them for many many months but now it all seems to just fit together. God Bless you Cubes and may he help us all on our journey for truth. Hi RR, It is true that the OT did not specify that Mary would be a virgin but as written in the new it does and confirms by her own mouth and the words of God that she was a virgin and did not know man. So if you were you reject these statements you are either saying Scripture is corrupt or that you are greater than scripture and I do not believe on this matter that either is true. If you cast doubt on scripture without evidence of it being corrupted and cause doubts among God's people do you not risk the millstone?

I agree.  When the angel visited Mary she had not know a man – she was a virgin.  I believe she had relations with Joseph after the Angels visit.  Mary and Joseph were already betrothed and considered husband and wife.  I am in agreement with scripture.

[Ramblinrose]

Hi david

I don't believe the witch was communicating with Samuel.

I had offered the following link in previous discussion on this topic.  You may find it of interest.

Saul & the Witch of Endor

[Ramblinrose]

David,

Enjoyed your post about the Witch of Endor and the soul.

Nick, I believe David quoted Psalms 18.31 not 18.1. To use your own words – 'You must be accurate'.

Psalms 18:31 For who is God, except the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?

[Ramblinrose]

Nick,

Earlier I said:

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How can I come to know YHWH apart from his word?

In my last comment I said:

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How else could I know 'of' God if he did not 'speak' the knowledge of himself to us, that others wrote down?

You lose what is being said because you prefer to nitpick at the words being used and alter the direction of the conversation.

[Author]

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