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[OneSpirit]

Has anyone looked into this one?

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The “slaughter of the innocents” (Jeremiah 31:15) Matthew says that Herod, in an attempt to kill the newborn Messiah, had all the male children two years old and under put to death in Bethlehem and its environs, and that this was in fulfillment of prophecy. This is a pure invention on Matthew's part. Herod was guilty of many monstrous crimes, including the murder of several members of his own family. However, ancient historians such as Josephus, who delighted in listing Herod's crimes, do not mention what would have been Herod's greatest crime by far. It simply didn't happen. The context of Jeremiah 31:15 makes it clear that the weeping is for the Israelites about to be taken into exile in Babylon, and has nothing to do with slaughtered children hundreds of years later.

[OneSpirit]

Oxy,

You said:

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The Father, known throughout the Old Testament times as the Almaighty God, (not Father), was Judge, Provider, Deliverer, One to be feared because of His judgements.

This is patently false.  Yahweh has always been Father.

Deuteronomy 32:6
“Do you thus deal with the LORD,O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you?”

Psalm 103:13
“As a father pities his children,So the LORD pities those who fear Him.”

Malachi 2:10
“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?”

[OneSpirit]

Is1:18 wrote:

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No you didn't understand my question. I'll explain. Yahshua is explicitly called YHWH twelve seperate times in Zecharaiah 14 (vs 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21). You surmise that this is because He is YHWH by proxy, as is consistent with the law of agency….My objection to this is: If Yahshua was explicitly called YHWH in Scripture because He was in the role of the Father's agent, then surely there would be many instances in Scripture to appeal to where other persons (e.g. Moses) are also explicitly assigned the tetragammaton, as they are also in this role…. Where are they?

An example of what Is1:18 is referring to:

Zechariah 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth
     And fight against those nations,
     As He fights in the day of battle.
      4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
     Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
     And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
     From east to west,
     Makinga very large valley;
     Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
     And half of it toward the south.

Adam Pastor wrote:

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In Exo 7.17 we read: (Exo 7:17)  Thus saith YAHWEH, In this thou shalt know that I am YAHWEH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. However, how was it fulfilled? (Exo 7:19-20)  And YAHWEH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. 20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as YAHWEH commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Looks like a similar concept to me!

(My apologies to you both for butting into this discussion.)

[OneSpirit]

Casiphus,

OK. I think that I understand where you are coming from now. Just answer me this:

Do you think that the “Christian bible” holds any more truth than the other “holy books” that you mentioned?

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

I would really appreciate it if you actually answered the question that I asked.  Otherwise, there is no point in trying to have a dialogue.  Here it is again:

Are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?

It's a “yes” or “no” question, so I would appreciate it if you answered accordingly.  I am trying to figure out if this is what you mean when you say:

“And the Spirit can illuminate more than just the words.”

Yes or no?

[OneSpirit]

Casiphus,

You seem to have a great talent for speaking a lot of wonderful sounding words without actually answering any questions.  Let me try this again:

When you read scripture, do you see it as the Truth, or do you see it as a collection of truisms that require further development?

(By the way, your answer to my last question seemed like mere diversion.  You say the real question is a “what”, not a “who”.  But, ultimately, someone has to make a decision as to “what constitutes good fruit”, and I suspect that that person ends up being you, and not the Author of scripture.)

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

My actual question was:

Are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?

That's all I am asking.  I am not asking about the general purpose of the Spirit.  (We've already discussed that at length.)

[OneSpirit]

Casiphus,

You wrote:

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I don't know why my answer would make any difference to whether or not I should be judged by another human, but if it will make you happy 😉

It's called discernment:

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Malachi 3:18: Then you shall again discern      Between the righteous and the wicked,      Between one who serves God      And one who does not serve Him.

You wrote:

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I'm not particularly concerned with the sources, but with the reasoning.  Even using all Biblical references, a former Casiphus may have answered your example question like this: The story of Sodom and Gomorah shows that God hates homosexuals, and that he will destroy them.  St Paul adds his criticism of homosexuals, saying that they will reap the destruction they sow.  They are sexually devient people, whose behaviour goes against nature. Whereas the current Casiphus may answer: The first question to answer is, what is a godly lifestyle?  Presumably it would be one that reveals the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace – as St Paul said.  Jesus said that people would know his followers for their love.  So a lifestyle that exhibits these fruits could be said to be godly.  But what is love?  St Paul goes on to say that love is patient, kind, never envious, always forgiving, always hoping.  And what is joy?  Joy is the song that comes after a night of mourning.  It is an exuberant shout at the goodness of God and his ways, and the knowledge that they are just and upright, and will endure forever.  And what is peace?  Peace is the relationship that exists between the children of God, when he is on the throne of their hearts, and reflected in their behaviour towards one another.  So a godly lifestyle is a loving, joyful, peaceful lifestyle, that promotes the goodness of God, and consequently the unity of the community. Out of laziness I haven't bothered to reference, but I think they're all fairly self-explanatory – 1 Cor 12-13, John 16 or 17?, Psalms ?, Matt 7? – though really, I think of the latter as more Biblical principles than specific passages, at least, that's the point I'm trying to make.  I wouldn't generally answer like that, because I find that as soon as you quote a Bible passage someone quotes another to contradict you, and it's easy to do (besides, I don't think something is valid just because the Bible says so – I think it still needs to be tested).  However, as I hope I've shown, I'm not interested in sources, so much as approaches.  I don't like an approach that tries to say, this is good and that is evil, because my source (Bible or other) says so.  I find the consequences of this approach are generally divisive and destructive. I prefer to use a “best practice” approach, where it can be shown that certain practices have unifying and uplifting consequences.  And to recommend that these be the ones pursued.

So who decides if something in scripture “passes the test”?  Who decides what “approaches” constitute “best practices”?

It seems to me that the answer to both of those questions for you is “Casiphus”, in which case, Casiphus ends up being his own final authority – (at least in this life).

Again, if I have misunderstood you, please correct me, but I think that all I have done is simply clarified your position.

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

You wrote:

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The Spirit knows the heart of man and can discern beyond mere words written or spoken. Jesus knew the hearts of his listeners before they spoke a word but their words expressed their hearts. “Out of the mouth comes what the heart is full of” He did not enter into a friendly conversation with the madman in the tombs but dealt immediately with the spirit that were controlling him and set the man free. He healed the Syrophoenecian woman's daughter without even seeing her. He knew the woman at the well had had many husbands without ever being told. These are all the work of the Spirit and we too can be imbued with the same Spirit to do the works he has given us to do. Even greater things he said. If these words were spoken only for the ears of his disciples then which other words does this apply to, …..and who decides?

I'm not sure what this has to do with your statement:

“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”

I thought you were talking about scripture, not spontaneous prophesy.  To be more precise in my question, are you saying that the Spirit gives you special revelations about scripture that the plain text does not imply?

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

Faith is confirmed through actions, as you pointed out: “Faith without works is dead.”  But, our actions are the result of our faith.  If we don't have faith, we won't act!

Are you really trying to say that actions are more important than faith?

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You see at the end of your last post you are restricting us to share only within the constraints your doctrinal stance allows you to accept. But those restraints may be closing the door on you ever knowing or experiencing more that God has to offer all His chidren. Is that wise?

You misunderstood me.  I was not trying to limit your answer.  I was just reminding you of another “apples and oranges” moment in our discussions.  The reason why I ask you to explain what you mean by “insights of the Spirit” is because there is a strong possibility that we will disagree.  Therefore, I am not going to assume your answer.  I would like to actually hear it from you.  I am geniunely interested in what you meant when you said:

“And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.”

You and I have a very different outlook on such matters, and I am always interested to see yours.  However, if you distrust my motives, than we can just drop it.

[OneSpirit]

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Luke 7:50 Then he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Faith precedes everything else.  It is not just the “first” step; it is the most important step.

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1 Peter 1: 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

You wrote:

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These are open forums and anyone can contribute at any time to build up the church.Surely you are aware of the insights given by the Spirit?

I am asking for you to give me an example of what you mean.  So often we are talking apples and oranges.  (I don't think that I need to remind you about the “evidence of the Spirit” discussion.)

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

The question was for Casiphus, not for you.  You are missing the point as usual.  Here it is for you in plain English:

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Romans 10: 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:      “ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,      Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “[YHWH], who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

By the way…

You wrote:

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And the Spirit can illuminate more than the words.

Give me an example of what you mean please.

[OneSpirit]

Quote (Casiphus @ Oct. 13 2005,00:22)

Quote A man who makes his own law is his own god.  Your faith does not rest in anyone, or anything, outside of yourself.  As long as that is your conscious decision, go for it.  Just don't expect YHWH-fearing people to join you. Are you God, that you know my heart?  Don't you interpret the Bible how you think best, and another person how they think best?  If two people disagree on Biblical interpretation does that mean one of them is being his own god?  Surely it is God who calls a person, and God that leads them – will you then condemn me because I don't follow you? I don't like to be confronting, but when I read your posts I FEEL as though you have decided that what you think is what all “YHWH-fearing people” think.  Are you really in a position to say this?

You are right Casiphus.  Only YHWH knows your heart.  However, I can read your words.  So, if I have misunderstood you, then I will apologize, but the impression you leave with your words does not seem to indicate that I have.  Nevertheless, you can resolve this by answering one simple question:

What sources, outside of yourself, inform you as to what is true and what is false?  (i.e.  If I were to say to you, “Homosexuality is a perfectly healthy, even godly, alternative lifestyle!”, where would you turn to decide if my belief is true or false?)

I stand prepared to apologize if your answer to the above contradicts my earlier assessment of your views.

By the way…

You wrote:

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If two people disagree on Biblical interpretation does that mean one of them is being his own god?

No.  If they both consider scripture a higher authority than their own opinion, than they both still have a god over them, (even if they turn out to be different ones).  If, however, one of them says that scripture can not be trusted, and that one must determine what is right and wrong in scriputure for one's self, then that person has placed himself in a higher position of authority than scripture, and can not be overruled by anything but his own conscience. He is his own god.

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

I presume that you meant to address your last post to Casiphus, and not to me, as I did not write the post that you quote.

[OneSpirit]

Casiphus,

I repeat:
A man who makes his own law is his own god.  Your faith does not rest in anyone, or anything, outside of yourself.  As long as that is your conscious decision, go for it.  Just don't expect YHWH-fearing people to join you.

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Deuteronomy 12:8 “You shall not at all do as we are doing here today—every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes—” Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes. Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise. Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But [YHWH] weighs the hearts.

From your friend Paul:

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Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

Since you won't go look it up, I will quote here my partial study:

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Nick wrote: Quote Hi One Spirit, What does “having the Spirit” mean to you in your experience? Your question misses the point.  “My experience” is not scripture.  “My experience” could be nothing more than self-deception.  What is more important is what scripture says about what “having the Spirit” means.  If “my experience” lines up with that, then I may have something to share. Nick quoted: Quote Jn 20.22 “He breathed on them and said ' Receive the Holy Spirit..” I am glad that you picked out this verse.  It is a good starting point for understanding the Spirit.  The word used for “spirit” in this verse literally means “breath”, (in both the Hebrew and Greek).   Quote Lexicon Results for ruwach (Strong's 07307) Hebrew for 07307   Pronunciation Guide ruwach {roo'-akh} TWOT Reference Root Word TWOT – 2131a from 07306 Part of Speech n f Outline of Biblical Usage 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit a) breath b) wind c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) e) spirit (as seat of emotion) f) spirit g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son So the act of “breathing” on the disciples is highly symbolic in regards to receiving the Spirit.  (See Job 33:4 for more on this aspect of the Spirit.)  Now look at Job 32:8. Quote Job 32: 8 But it is the spirit in a man,       the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. Here you see a strong association with breath of the Almighty in man and the mind of a man.  Paul makes this same association between the Spirit of YHWH and the Mind of YHWH.  Compare Isaiah 40:13 to Romans 11:34: Quote Isaiah 40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,      Or as His counselor has taught Him? Romans 11:34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” At its very core, having the Spirit of YHWH is about having the Mind of YHWH taking over our own.  Take a quick look at what people who are filled with the Spirit do: Quote Acts 2: 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Skipping past the miracle to the meat… Quote Acts 2: 14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.” … Acts 2: 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. The most important part of being filled with the Spirit is the message that was brought by Peter through a direct connection to the Mind of YHWH. More examples: Quote Acts 4: 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! …” Again, Peter is filled with the Spirit before delivering an important message. Quote Acts 4: 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. Same model here as well. Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH. That is why I ask you to show us your doctrine from scripture Nick, because if your teaching does not derive from scripture, then you do not “have the Spirit”, no matter how many times you have “spoken in tongues”.

Again, all I see in your post are your opinions. Be a Berean, Nick. Show us some Truth.

[OneSpirit]

Casiphus,

You wrote:

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😉 I don't think that all is relative, I just think that we have to sift through all the sources that come our way, rather than just believe or disbelieve wholesale.  Just because something contains a “kernal of truth”, or even a whole tree, does that necessarily mean it is all true?

So, essentially, you believe that there is some Truth in all belief systems, and none of them contain the whole Truth.  Is that pretty much it?

If so, tell me this: Who ultimately decides what is true in each of those religions?  Who knows enough about life, death, righteousness, wickedness, justice – essentially all the underlying principles of the universe – to discern the right from the wrong in all those religions?

That person would have to be the Creator Himself, (or someone who wants to sit on the Creator's throne).

In other words, be your own god, if you must, but realize that you are placing a lot of faith in yourself.  For your sake, I hope that you are right.

[OneSpirit]

Nick,

I produced (some of) my scriptural study of the Holy Spirit in the “Gift of tongues” thread.  The only thing that I have seen you do is take verses out of context in support of your view.  I am not asking you to hide behind scholars.  I am asking you to show us your study that shows your point of view to be scriptural.  Be a Berean and rightfully divide scripture so that the rest of us can see how our views don't add up to the Word.

(In other words, I am not interested in your personal opinion, or personal derision of someone else's work, unless you have Truth to back it up.)

[OneSpirit]

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Hi RR, The author of your article denies and insults the Holy Spirit. He reduces God and increases the importance of men's minds. How vain and foolish.

I have yet to see you produce a scriptural study that supports your point of view. (You have not addressed David's study nor this one, except to show your contempt for their points of view.) Until you produce a thorough scriptural study of your own, you probably shouldn't be so quick to deride the work of others.

[OneSpirit]

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I suppose you both agree on the Mosaic authorship of Deuteronomy (and the majority of the Torah)? If so, I presume this helps confirm a belief that the Bible is inerrant? I don't really believe either of the above premises, so I tend to view passages such as the one quoted by OS as key insights into the beliefs of the author regarding Yahweh and his relationship with the children of Israel. Have you ever looked into alternate theories regarding the compilation of the Old Testament?

What's your theory?

(If it has anything to do with the idea that the Torah is unreliable, then you might as well toss the whole bible into the trash can and join the new age “all is relative” spiritualist movement.)

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