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[John]

Hi ringo111,

I use the KJV bible as my main study bible but I will also refer to other translations because if you understand human nature you will find that most of the bibles have the translators personal beliefs worked into the texts.

As far as the disciples not knowing these things, there are many things in which the disciples did not have a complete understanding of. We have the complete bible and the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach us. These things are plainly seen throughout scripture if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

You say that anyone who believes that Jesus has come in the flesh is born of God. I know many people who say and believe that Jesus has come in the flesh but they are far from being born of God, even demons believe Jesus has come in the flesh, they even believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You can believe the way you want but I’ll tell you, if you search these things out with a heart to know the deep things of God you too will see these eternal truths of God.

Many blessings to you,
John

(Edited by John at 7:04 pm on Feb. 17, 2004)

[John]

Hi t8,

I understand how you feel, I too would like to understand these things. I believe the trinity doctrine came to be because men of the past who searched these things out were lost for words to explain these things. The trinity doctrine almost seems to be a frustrated attempt to try and make scripture fit.

The way I have been looking at all of God’s work is that God loves us more then we can understand all at once. God created us knowing that we would stray just in the same way as when my wife and I had our children. We knew they would get into trouble and rebel but we still had them and love them. Sometimes parents are helpless in the bad choices their children make. In the end we hope that our wayward children would return to us because they know and remember the love we have for them.

Just like my children have a free will, so do God’s children. Just like I can’t do anything to force my child’s will to love, God can’t force our will to love.

When God looks at His children in creation He sees children who are sick and in need of help. I understand that there are people out there who are very wicked and take pleasure to hurting others, but this too stems for the sickness of separation from God’s love.

Adam was God’s first born and is a picture of mankind. We all have the same mindset that Adam had.

You may say that Adam was not born, he was created from the dust. I understand that but I don’t believe the true Adam is the dust but rather what God breathed into the dust is what birthed Adam. What God breathed into Adam was created on the sixth day of creation week. The dust of Adam or his literal body was formed outside the creation week.

Jesus is now God’s firstborn of all creation, not in the sense of biological birth but as a legal term being the firstborn in order to receive the inheritance. We see all throughout the bible people loosing their firstborn status because for their behavior for example, Jacob and Esu.

Jesus became the second Adam but was obedient even to death. God is using Jesus to restore and heal His children through the mind/knowledge/understanding that Jesus will give us.

The Holy Spirit is a mind that is in fellowship with the Father and is in the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father? The will of the Father is what He has been telling us from the beginning, to love.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

The Spirit of Christ is given to all those who ask the Father.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The Father will give us the Spirit of His Son who will become our comforter, our helper our counselor. Our comforter when we fall through temptation, our helper in teaching us how to love, our counselor in the choices that we are about to make, He will be like a big brother to a fatherless child.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Jesus is the comforter, helper and counselor. He says He will not leave us comfortless He will come to us. He says He will be in us as He is in the Father. Jesus has the thoughts and will of His Father at heart.

Our heavenly Father will restore His children through Christ. Christ suffered in the flesh so He could be a minister to us in our weaknesses.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 2:17 And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God, a Priest who would be both merciful to us and faithful to God in dealing with the sins of the people.

What Jesus wants to do for us is He wants to teach us the way unto eternal life. He wants to make our spirit holy just as He is Holy and His Father is Holy. He wants to be there for us when we suffer temptation to encourage us and strengthen us, He knows what we suffer because He too suffered as we do.

The Spirit of Christ will dwell within us so that He can cleans our minds with His words, this is why He gave Himself.

Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

In the glorification of Jesus He became the helper, comforter, counselor which the Father uses to restore His children by sanctifying our minds/thoughts so we to can be without spot.

How do we spiritually understand what Jesus doing in us? Spiritually He is correcting the water and the blood. He first did it within Himself through learning obedience through the things that He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus corrected the water and the blood within Himself and made them one.

Now, what is the water and the blood? The water is God’s word, in other words, God’s thoughts and will, we see this throughout scripture.

Blood is a picture of the life of the person the soul/character/inner man.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given you the blood to sprinkle upon the altar as an atonement for your souls; it is the blood that makes atonement, because it is the life.

Leviticus 17:14 for the blood is the life. That is why I told the people of Israel never to eat it, for the life of every bird and animal is its blood. Therefore, anyone who eats blood must be excommunicated.

Jesus came through the water and the blood.  In other words, mans character and God’s will. In Adam these two did not agree, they were separated. This is the sin nature the fact that we are not one with God’s will.

Jesus could have done His own will but He didn’t.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God gave His Son Jesus to correct this problem through Himself. Jesus’ Spirit will unit the life of man and the will of God for those who obey Him.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Through the death of Jesus, God’s will (water) and Jesus’ soul (blood) agree, the are one. Jesus’ death sealed this work and was risen to glory because of it.

God again gives us a picture of this when He foreordained the soldier to pierce Jesus’ side revealing the blood and water being one.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierce
d his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

God will give us the mind/thoughts/understanding of His Son because this is the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Christ in us the hope of glory.

It pleases the Father to bring us together with Him through His Son. Not that we are good enough to be one with the Father but Jesus was for us. We are accepted by the Father through Christ but have been loved and cared for by the Father from the foundation of the world.

To deny that Jesus has come in your flesh is antichrist or instead of Christ.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

Notice how it says, is come in the flesh. This is a present thing happening in those who receieve Him now.

I don’t believe it’s referring to Jesus coming in His flesh 2000 years ago. There are many historical facts that prove Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago and here are many people who believe He came 2000 years ago but they don’t believe He is their flesh, dwelling within them now, they are antichrist.

What will you do to win back your wayward children who have free wills?

Who can understand the love of God all at once?

Many blessing in Christ,
John

(Edited by John at 8:47 am on Feb. 17, 2004)

[John]

Hi t8,

What are the questions you are asking regarding the verses you listed?

Many blessing,
John

[John]

Hi t8,

When I read God’s word I try to understand the spiritual application of His word, in other words, I try to learn how what God is saying applies to me inwardly.

I understand that the tree of good and evil was to test us. But I don’t look at the literal tree but rather what the tree represents.

In God’s word a tree or wood is a picture of a character. To eat means to take in something, to receive nourishment from it, it gives us life, it becomes who we are.

What God is saying is that if our character is one that lives by our own understanding of what is good or evil we will die. God will do this for through our conscience. When Adam and Eve fell their conscience became seared which produced guilt and shame. Guilt and shame will manifest fear of God.

Adam and Even became as God in the fact that they discerned good and evil for themselves when God told them not to.

This caused a chain reaction of guilt, shame and fear. Adam and Eve began the downward spiral into the bottomless pit. All their thoughts regarding the Character and love of God became twisted and perverted.

This is the sin nature, the fallen mind set of man. This is what God needs to correct in each one of us.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil was not only back then in the garden but it’s in each one of us. A garden is a mind in God’s word, it’s our mind. We too have the same two trees in our minds, the same character can be developed within us. We have been cut off from the tree of life because we don’t understand the love of God and neither do we want it because our hearts are hard.

The fact that God gave His Son as an expression of His love will soften our hearts and turn us the tree of life, the character of obeying God and not self.

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 7:23 pm on Feb. 16, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I’ll break this verse down to it’s inward application. To repent means to turn away or to change your mind. To baptize or immerse is to wash. The name of Christ is not referring to His name but rather His character. When the bible speaks of a name it’s referring to the character behind the name, not the name itself. The remission of sin, I understand that there are some bibles that say for the forgiveness of sin but it should read,for the remission of sin. What happens when cancer goes into remission? It stops. Be baptized for the remissions of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In other words, what Acts 3:38 is saying is, turn from your self, your character and be taught the character of Christ, when you do, sin will stop in your life, your spirit (mind, thoughts) will be holy.

To think that just because you are put under water will stop sin is to miss the very important meaning God wants us to have in the picture He gave us in water baptism.

Take a look at Simon, he believed and was baptized in water.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Then a few verses later he is being rebuked by Peter and threatened that he will perish if he doesn’t turn from his wickedness.

Acts 8:20-22 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

The true more important understanding of water baptism is the inward application of it.

I understand tha some verses say the Holy Spirit is a him but that’s just a misunderstanding in many of these verses. If you continue to search out the attribute of the Holy Spirit you will find it being called, it. You will also find the Holy Spirit being poured out.

Many blessings to you,
John

(Edited by John at 6:45 pm on Feb. 16, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

All throughout God’s word He gives us outward pictures that we can see and study to help us understand spiritual truth.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Water in the bible represents words, they can be of God, pure and clean, or they can be not of God, bitter and unclean.

James 3:10-12 Out of the same mouth (words) proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

When does someone get washed (corrected) with words? When someone else speaks these cleansing words to them.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Belly in God’s word represents our mind.

Proverbs 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

Notice words go into the belly, words have to do with thought.

As we are taught the truth about God’s love regarding us which is contained in the gospel this is called baptizing or being immersed in water (words).

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Paul was not sent to baptize with water, he was sent to preach (teach) baptize with words regarding the plain and simple understanding of the cross.

Lets read a good example of what it means to cleans with words.

Acts 10:34-47 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: (notice Peter spoke, words) "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35. "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36. "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ He is Lord of all  37."that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38. "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39. "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40. "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41."not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42. "And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43. "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”  44.While Peter was still speaking these words, (Notice, while Peter was still speaking, words) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word (heard the word). 45. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47. "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

I ask you, did the Spirit come to them as a result of water immersing or word immersing? Washing with water or washing with words?

So you see, the true immersing takes place with words, the literal water is used to help us understand this, it was given so we can read and understand what is taking place. Your next question will probably be, why did Peter ask if any should forbid water so that they can be baptized?

You have to understand that the bible was written for us. Many of the symbols, pictures and figures God gave us through these men were not completely understood by them. We have the complete bible and the Holy Spirit to search the scriptures comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Baptism can be viewed in the same way as circumcision. Back then, when the people where growing in God’s revealed truth, they too had arguments regarding the spiritual meaning of circumcision. They too had a hard time coming out of the literal and into the spiritual or inward application.

Acts 11:1-3 NOW THE apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, "Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?"  

We too argue regarding baptism, Why? Because we’re not letting the Spirit gives us the meanings of these things. If I were to only read the bible where it mentions the need for circumcision I would be preaching circumcision to everyone and arguing about it. Now I’m reading of how the disciples baptized with water and I’m stuck on it, why? Because I have not yet matured to the next level of understanding which is the spiritual.

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 8:46 am on Feb. 15, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I can see by how you understand scripture that you are still in the letter which kills and have not understood the spiritual.

Tell me, how does one become born of water? Do you think by putting someone under water they are born of it or do you think the more biblical understanding of this is being born from above by the word of God.

The inside of the cup is a picture of our minds. How God cleans it is by the washing of water by the word.

Our outward lives are an expression of how we think inwardly. Nothing is done outwardly without it first being thought of inwardly. Our thoughts are what God is concerned with. If He can clean our thoughts by giving us His thoughts (His word) our outward lives will be clean also.

Remember, the kingdom of God is within, so seek the inward application of God’s word in how it applies to the inner man, our minds.

God is looking for people who worship Him in Spirit (inwardly) and in truth (revealed in Jesus).

Many blessings,
John

[John]

Hi ringo111,

Did you notice the verse on water baptism being a figure. This tells me that I sould not focus on the outward or the figure but rather what the figure represents.

Repentance takes place in the heart. When the kingdom of God was ushered in water baptism was used as a picture or figure to help us understand. If you look in God’s word, He always gives us an outward picture to help us understand an inward truth.

I believe it’s in Romans where God says, "Through understanding the things that are seen we can understand the things that are not seen."

As far as there being no water to baptise is not what I’m referring to. What I’m referring to is ones ability to be water baptised, emursed in water.

We recently had a huge fire in my area (The Station Night Club). Many people lost their lives, some we burned so bad that there body parts were burn off. In these types of cases where someone is unable to be emursed, this is what I’ referring to. Some of these people never recovered and died in the hospital.

There is nothing I can do outwardly to make the inward right. God says He will clean the inside of the cup first, the outside will take care of itself. For the kingdom of God is not in eat or drink (outward) but rather it’s in righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (inward).

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 5:18 am on Feb. 14, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I’m not at my laptop so I do have access to the verses.

God’s word says there is one baptism. Which baptism is it referring to, the water or the Spirit baptism.

I agree with the understanding that the willingess to be water baptized reveals a willingness to repent but repentence still takes place in the heart and life of the one repenting.

You say I have not shown the fact that water baptism in a figure, you must have missed the verse I gave.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Regarding the use of water to baptise. What of those who can not be water baptized for some reason?

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 3:43 am on Feb. 14, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God’s presence in power and wisdom throughout all creation and time. God is all powerful and has all knowledge. There is no where you can go to escape His presence.

Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

When you lie to the Holy Spirit you lie to God.

2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

When God speaks to us He is impressing our mind with His will. God’s Spirit moved these men to speak to write the things that they wrote.

The Spirit of God is His power and presence. He reveals Himself by His Spirit in many different ways. His Spirit will make His will known to us through knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

If you notice that in the mention of the Holy Spirit it is referring to fellowship. This fellowship is the unity between the Father and the Son and us.

We can all possess a divine nature with we seek to make our spirit (mind) holy as He is Holy.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

God the Father put all things under Christ, in other words, He gave Jesus full authority to rule but God Himself is still over Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says "all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

We come to Jesus to know the Father. Jesus will partition the Father for us to reveal all the blessings that are contained in the new covenant.

John 14:13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

God gave this rulership to Jesus so that in Christ God can be all in all, in other words, restore is people back to Himself through Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Stephen was fill with the Holy Spirit, in other words, God’s presence was being poured out in Steven.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God. Jesus now has that same Spirit ability to give life. He is the comforter because He understands our suffering because He suffered as we suffer.

There is a lot more but I have to get ready for work.

Many blessings,
John

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I’ll try using your tactic in trying to get an answer.

Well, mister brick wall, you haven’t answered my question. I hope people are reading this forum. Maybe you don’t have the answer. I’ll try again…What is your definition of the Godhead? ; )

By the way, I’m not a trinitarian.

Many blessings,
John

[John]

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 3:00 am on Feb. 13, 2004 If it is only a sighn- explain this- Luke 7:29-30 29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.) *Where does it say in the bible that its only a sighn?? *For i see here a huge importance- And if thats what the baptising in water did for jews- Then what about those who accept jesus before they are baptised ^^;;

Hi ringo111,

Remember, John the Baptist only prepared the way for Jesus. John’s baptism was the shadow of the more important baptism which was to come by Jesus.

Luke 7:27 "This is he of whom it is written: `Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way before You.’

Matthew 3:11  "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:26-27 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know.  He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

The water baptism is the shadow or figure of the inward truth to help us understand.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

To baptise means to teach by means of words. It’s the understanding of these words that clears the conscience.

Hebrews 10:22  let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

To sprinkle is to teach in a way that is easy to understand, to have an evil conscience is dealing with the inward in how we think, pure water is God’s word.

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 5:22 pm on Feb. 13, 2004)

[John]

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 8:43 pm on Feb. 12, 2004 you john say- 1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. Christ did not send Paul to baptize with water, but to teach the simple message of the Cross which is God’s love towards man *************************** I ringo111 say- Just because He went to preach, doesnt take from the importance of baptism- As It says- whoever believed was baptised- It just means that you baptise those who believe- as we were commanded- Oh and thats why baby baptism are wrong aswell- Because Those who understand and accept were baptised- they forced no-one. ***********************************

Hi ringo111,

The water in baptism is used as an outward picture to help us understand an inward spiritual truth in the same way circumcision is an outward picture of an inward spiritual truth.

God’s blessings to you,
John

[John]

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 7:57 pm on Feb. 12, 2004 I will use your own scripture quote Yoou John sAY- "John 16:13 He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine." ******************** I ringo111 say Again He is talking about the Holy spirit as a seperate person from himself- and besides this- Ive allready proven in my previous posts that the holy spirit is a person- who acted before jesus was sent. But again i will quote- Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." *the holy spirit Descending on Jesus- How plain do you want it?? *you claim trinitarians added it these mountians of references to the holy spirit- Can you prove it?? Do you have any documents to prove you are correct?? Or have you been lead into error by someone you respect. Which i suspect to be the case. *these have been the last days for 2000 years- and they did see Jesus again – he showed himself to them in the locked house- John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" THe two on the road to emmaus Luke 24 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. And again to Thomas and the disciples John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." THe two on the road to emmaus Luke 24 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. Now please stop ignoring everything i am saying- I take your scriptures and look at them and your views and answer them- Point by point- you could show the same curtousy- It will at least be able to show you are willing to properly debate rather than just throwing out things that you call trueth without any real explanation- I am here for the trueth- I want to know the truth- and if you can disprove my points- Then that will be a start- But as for our current communication- I have given scripture to back up my belief all the way through the bible and you – use one loose translation- and alot of your own opinion. And a bible which is questionable – as most other bibles say contrary in parts to yours- (Edited by ringo111 at 8:01 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

Hello ringo111,

What is your definition of the Godhead, is it a co-eternal, co-equal trinity? Please explain.

Truth in love,
John

[John]

Quote

Quote: from t8 on 7:59 pm on Feb. 12, 2004 Hi John, I am very open to understanding truth and I want to challenge what you have said in this discussion (your first post), not to prove you wrong or to prove I am right, but only to discover truth for all of us, even if it proves or disproves your words. Your point about evil seems to me to be summed up in this quote of yours. <font color=navy><i>In order to have this choice in life between life and death, blessing or cursing there has to be a positive and negative in life. There has to be an adversary or there is no choice. In other words, we need day in order to have night. We need height in order to have depth. We need evil in order to have good. In God’s creation, He created both good and evil. There has to be an adversarial system to make choices in life, it’s what makes life what it is. Just because something is evil it doesn’t make it unrighteous. There is no unrighteousness in God, but He says He created evil. God created evil in order to be the adversary in life. Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. </i></font> So I would like to start with the scripture that you quoted. Isaiah 45:6-7, but I will quote it in the NIV first Isaiah 45 <font color=red>6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD , and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.</font> And also in the NASB. Isaiah 45:6 <font color=red>That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun.  That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.</font> So without looking up a concordance for the meaning of the word evil, I will at this stage say that the translators of the above 2 translations (not that it makes it right) do not use the word ‘evil’, rather ‘calamity’ or ‘disaster’. However all 3 translations do say that God creates darkness and we can see that he has certainly done this when we look at Genesis 1:2-5 <font color=red>2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.</font> So how do we reconcile the fact that God created darkness but yet has no darkness in himself as the following scripture says: 1 John 1:5 <font color=red>This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.</font> Here we can see that God has no darkness in him, yet he created darkness, although he never says that the darkness was good, like he says "and it was good" when talking about the light. My thoughts on this are in some ways similar to yours in the respect that God must give us a choice. So if God is love, then how can we choose love if there is no other option. So of course God allows for the lack of love which is hate. Same with good. If God is good and we have a free will and we exercise that will to choose not God, then what other option do we have? The answer is evil. But my question is this. Is darkness and evil an actual thing or the lack of a thing. E.g light is a thing and the lack of that thing, leaves us darkness does it not? But it appears that darkness is not a thing itself (maybe a state) rather the lack of light. If I turn on a light in a dark room, then the light overcomes the darkness. But can I turn on a dark in a light room and does that light turn into darkness. No it doesn’t. It is not because light is more powerful than darkness, (which of course it is) but rather that light is something that God made and darkness is the lack of light only, which is given to fulfill free will. I am sure that God has no pleasure in the lack of the things that he is and that he has made. So evil is the lack of good;  darkness is the lack of light; foolishness is the lack of wisdom, ignorance is the  lack of knowledge, hate is the lack of love. If this is true, then how can you say that for light to exist there must exist darkness. I am not sure if I agree with your words here. That would be like saying that Satan must exist for God to exist would it not? Yet we know that God can exist without Satan, but Satan does needs God in order to exist. My understanding so far is that darkness exists as a choice for rejecting light. So if I reject light and rejection is the same as no, then darkness is no light. Your above quote in navy, included the following below: <font color=navy><i>Just because something is evil it doesn’t make it unrighteous</i></font> I am not so sure about these words. To me they seem wrong if evil is the lack of good. Yes I know that Jesus himself said that "No one is good except God alone" and yet we know that Jesus is not evil. Rather I would say that he is good because his goodness comes from God. Jesus is not evil, nor a righteous evil if God is the only one who is good and Jesus isn’t God. As far as I know, I do not know of one instance of righteous evil. To me that would be like saying a wise foolishness, although I do acknowledge that there is ‘luke warm’ (a hot cold), but even this is evil because sin is falling short of God’s perfection. If it falls short by 1 mile or 1 mm it still falls short. Now to say that there is no light unless there is darkness or that there is no love unless there is hate must be error. What about this: If there is no light then darkness would not be recognized. It would be nothing because it wouldn’t have been thought of. A bit like saying that there is no counterfeit &#363.00 note because a real one doesn’t exist. If so, then if there was no love, then hate wouldn’t exist either. It is only the fact that there is light that darkness can be and that there is good that evil can be. It is not that evil must exist in order for good to exist, rather evil exists because good exists as evil is the lack of good. If light didn’t exist, then how could we know what darkness is? It would be a non thought or thing. In other words, the lack of something is only recognised because that something exists. E.g the lack of money only makes sense if you have money or need it. Otherwise no money is actually nothing and there is no reason to think about the lack of money if you do not need money or if money never existed. If what I say is true, then light, good, love are not only dominant, but they exist in there own right and not because it’s opposite exists. Maybe we do not differ to much on this subject in many ways, but I felt that you give evil and darkness to much credit as you seem to say that they must exist in order for the opposites to exist, where I think that they exist only to serve our free will. i.e light can exist without darkness, but darkness cannot exist without light, rather darkness is just the lack of light, not a thing or substance. This ‘lack of’ exists for free will only. Not in order for the thing itself to exist. If your assumption were correct, then Satan could quite proudly say that God exists because I (Satan) exist and if Satan is the Father of Lies, then he could say that he existed before tr uth. Such a theology could lead to many undesirable conclusions and deception. I think that darkness without any knowledge of light is nothing. How could it be explained with no knowledge of light. It wouldn’t even be a thought. Then we come to the scriptures that talk about the next world, the perfect world to come. Revelation 21:1- <font color=red>1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." 5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."</font> Here we can see a reality where there is no more death or mourning. So in this reality, we do not need tears in order to have joy. Joy is not dependent on the lack of itself. Same with death. It doesn’t need to exist in order for life to be. Rather the old things are thrown into the Lake of Fire for destruction. Surely the next world will be a world of perfection with no sin and no hate. It will be a place of love and righteousness. Perhaps this was always God’s will in the beginning, but our reality changed when our father in the flesh exercised his free will and sinned. Once he sinned he passed that state onto his offspring (all humanity) and we were all born as sinners. So instead of a perfect world where we had a choice to opt out of, we are now in a sinful world in which we can opt out by choosing God’s world. So God is redeeming us back to himself through Christ as you know. Free will still applies. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (English-NIV) <font color=red>24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.</font> So the lack of good things is being reversed or redeemed, so that all enemies will come under Christ, so that God who is light and the only true source of good, will exist in all things. If this happens will not the lack of good be gone. A perfect world with no evil, sin, pain, suffering or hate. An eternal world, not a temporal one.

Hi t8,

Very well written.

It seems to me that God created everything for His glory. When God created the heavens and the earth He also created this adversarial system. Good creates from the same lump of clay vessels for honor and vessel for dishonor. We can be used for honor if we choose. This is the free will, this is what God set before all His creation, life or death, cursing or blessings. Both these paths of life have been preordained so that we will know where we are heading by which path we choose.

I understand what you mean regarding not having knowledge of light if there was only darkness. This is why God brings them both to be so that we will have this knowledge. The tree of life as well and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was in the garden and God says it was good.

I’m always open for God’s truth, if I’m wrong then praise God for His light pointing it out in me. I will change my thoughts for God’s thoughts in a blink of an eye if I can see it in scripture and the Spirit confirms it to my heart.

Iron sharpens iron, so sharpen away my friend…

In Christ,
John

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I guess you’re not getting what I’m saying.

(your statement)
If Jesus was himself being sent- then he would have said ‘I myself will be sent to you’
But he did not!!!
Instead Jesus said

(God’s word)
John 14
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

So Jesus does say He Himself will come.

(your statement)
John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

(God’s word)
John 14
but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus is speaking to the disciples telling them that they know who the comforter is. Who do the disciples know? They know Jesus, He is the only one they knew.

Then Jesus tells them that this comforter will dwell in them. Who dwells in us? Jesus does.

Then Jesus tells the disciples that He will not leave them comfortless that He will come to them. Who does Jesus come as? The comforter.

Many blessing to you,
Brick-wall : )

(Edited by John at 7:52 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

John 16:13-16 However, when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking of his own accord, but will say only what he has been told; and he will reveal to you the things to come. He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. Jesus to return very soon In a short time you will no longer see me, and then a short time later you will see me again.

The Spirit of truth is the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ will give to you what the Father gives to Him.

Jesus says, "you will no longer see Me, but then a short time later you will see Me again."

When Jesus is glorified, in other words, when He goes to His Father He become the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth. This truth that He gives us will remain with us forever. We will forever be accountable to this truth.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, `We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

Luke 12:48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

[John]

Hi ringo111

john 14 16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus is speaking of the comforter when He tells the disciples that they know Him, the disciples knew Jesus. Referring to the comforter Jesus says, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you." Jesus says, He will come to them.

This leaves me to believe that Jesus and the comforter are the same person.

All throughout scripture we only find worship of the Father and the Son.

We don’t find God tellings us to love the Spirit or worship the Spirit and neither does the Spirit have a throne nor a place with the Father and His Son.

We don’t even find the Spirit in the whole book of Revelation. Where is the co-eternal trinity in these truths.

Also…

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The key word here is, know.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Many blessings,
John

(Edited by John at 7:04 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

Most of the bibles out there are of a trinitarian desent in which they will twist and add to scripture to make the trinity doctrine more acceptable such as 1 John 5:7.

Throughout eternity there was only the Spirit of God (Father) and now at the coming of the last days we now have the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit came to be at the glorification of Jesus.

Jesus gave Himself as an expression of love in order so that we would love Him and allow Him to correct our thinking.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him. Jesus was able to do this because He was obedient through the things that He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is no third person Holy Spirit, it’s only the Father and His Son.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ will direct you if you let this mind that is in Christ also be in you.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

There are many more verses that speak of the Father and His Son and the unity they share in Spirit in the same way we can be partakers of the same Spirit of unity.

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The most important thing is that we express our love for God through loving others.

John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Romans 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Thessalonians 4:9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 John 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

2 John 1:5  And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

(Edited by John at 5:08 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[John]

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 8:17 am on Feb. 12, 2004 "If we trust in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. If we hear Him and obey Him, He will correct our understanding in these matters of good and evil. We will be able to discern what is the sanctified good and evil in life in order to make the right choice. " "Hebrews 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. " Good saying followed by ignorant saying. which is your statement below. If we give our lives to Jesus and allow Him to discern good and evil for us and when we obey His Spirit convictions in our heart and turn away from the unsanctified things in our lives. He will remove the adversarial thoughts we have towards God’s will for our lives. This is choosing life over death, blessing over cursing, this is salvation. " this last statment is very wrong- please stop mixing mens teachings with gods- (Edited by ringo111 at 8:32 am on Feb. 12, 2004)

Hi ringo111,

Jesus gave Himself as an expression of love in order so that we would love Him and allow Him to correct our thinking.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him. Jesus was able to do this because He was obedient through the things that He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is no third person Holy Spirit, it’s only the Father and His Son.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ will direct you if you let this mind that is in Christ also be in you.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

There are many more verses that speak of the Father and His Son and the unity they share in Spirit in the same way we can be partakers of the same Spirit of unity.

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The most important thing is that we express our love for God through loving others.

John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Romans 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Thessalonians 4:9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 John 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

2 John 1:5  And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

(Edited by John at 4:46 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

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