Search Members

[Human]

Nick,

You might look at Revelation 11. It seems to be very related to the vision that the three apostles saw. It also talks about two prophets and they are described to have the same abilities as Elijah and Moses had – ability to close the skies (Elijah) and ability to turn water into blood (Moses). You will see there that John is not talking about literal Elijah and Moses. They symbolize something more than just two prophets.

So this also emphasizes that the vision with Elijah and Moses was a prophetic and symbolic vision of future things – the Kingdom of Heaven – and not a vision of literal Moses and Elijah who had been dead for many years.

[Human]

Nick,

I think we have double information here and in the topic “The Dead in Christ”. I have explained some of my views in that topic.
Also Ramblinrose's link makes some good points, although I do not agree with the claim that the paradise is the third heaven. But that is another topic.

[Human]

Nick,

Of course I do not want to claim that the verse is wrong or modified. As you said, there are not real proof to that. But what I WANT to say is that Jesus' disciples did not pay much importance to this event, even if it did happen. Why should we?

[Human]

Hi Nick,

If you take the part “they entered the holy city” out of the scripture, the verse could easily mean that graves were broken open, bodies of the dead were thrown out and appeared to many (especially if you look at the meaning of the original Greek words there). Of course, I do not want to claim that the scripture is wrong or altered there. However, not one of the apostles later considered it to be important to mention this event.

Jehoram became a king only after Elijah's going to heaven. Only after Elijah's going to heaven Jehoram started to do ungodly things. What Elijah wrote in his letter was a reprobation of what Jehoram had done AFTER Elijah's ascension to heaven.
btw – Elijah's disciples wanted to go look for Elijah in case if the whirlwind had dropped him somewhere – 2 Kings 2:16.
“Heaven” can also mean simply the physical heaven – the sky.
But even more importantly – John 3:13 says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus – that includes Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.
Matthew 11:11 says that John the Baptist was the “greatest prophet” (that means – even greater than Elijah, Moses, and Enoch) but even he did not go to heaven.

[Human]

Nick and t8,

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I did not say that Adam and Eve went to heaven. I was just making a point that if they did not sin, they would still be here on earth. They did not go to heaven. They returned to dust. They were no more. They died. God's initial plan was to fill the earth. And also – I do not think that Elijah, Moses, or Enoch went to heaven. John 3:13 says that no one went to heaven before Jesus Christ. Aslo Matthew 11:11.

And I totally agree that the Kingdom of Heaven will rule OVER the earth FROM heaven. Heaven is not a place on earth. The heaven is in heaven, but the paradise will be on earth. That was my point. Jesus Christ and his co-rulers will rule as great spiritual beings from heaven over the earth for 1000 years until everything that Satan damaged is restored.

I hope this clears up some things!

[Human]

t8,

I think it is very important to understand what was God's initial plan towards the earth and mankind.

Genesis 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

God did not change his plan after the flood:

Genesis 9:1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

Psalms 115:16 The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

So God's plan was to fill the earth, not heaven and God does not cancel his plans – Isaiah 55:10,11.

If Adam and Eve did not sin, they would still be on earth not in heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is a solution (to Satan's damage) not a destination.

Of course there are certain people going to heaven. The Bible is clear about that. But does not Daniel's book give more light on this?

Daniel 7:27 Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.

Also Revelation:
Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth. [NASB “upon the earth”]”

I think that those going to heaven are the kings and priests, co-rulers of Jesus Christ – the holy nation. In fact, the Israelites were those who first had the chance to become a holy nation of kings and priests – Exodus 19:6. But they did not accept Jesus so God took their right away from them. However, as I said before, God does not change or cancel his plan – and he will accomplish his plan and will gather a holy nation through which all other nations will be sanctified – Genesis 18:18.

This also very well fits with what Jesus said:

Luke 22:30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Jesus also spoke of those who would be on earth:
Matthew 5:5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Does it make sense?

[Human]

Hi,

my response to the first post in this topic:

Were some of the dead actually raised to life straight after Jesus' death? Why then other apostles did not report this event in their gospels or later letters? This clearly should have been an important matter. But nobody mentioned it later. Not once. Quite the opposite – as 2 Tim 2:18 says, the ressurection had not yet taken place at that time.
What Matthew actually could have described is an event when bodies of the dead are thrown out of the graves as a result of a strong earthquake. A similar thing did actually happen some time in 1960s.
Did the dead “go into the holy city?” The part of the scripture “they went into the holy city” could as well be a fragment from another gospel or a later addition. Or this scripture cold refer to someone else not the dead bodies.

Was Elijah actually taken to the spiritual heaven? Not likely.
– The Bible says that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram even after Elijah's ascension to heaven – 2 Chronicles 21:12.
– John 3:13 says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus.
(so more likely Elijah was simply transported by a whirlwind to another place).

I hope this sounds reasonable!

[Human]

Just wanted to add a quick post regarding 1 John 5:7.

If you look at the context and verses around it, it is clear that those three bearing witness are the SPIRIT, the WATER, and the BLOOD (not what trinitarians claim this verse says).

To t8,

I really liked some of the reasoning you provided in this topic. It fully corresponds to what I believe.

Just wanted to ask one additional thing (sorry if this is not the right place for it!):

Do you believe that the paradise will be here on earth and that there will be “a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust” in flesh on paradise earth?

[Human]

Not sure what you mean by “judge more harshily”.
There are only two options. Either you go into everlasting life or everlasting destruction. The “sheep” and “goats”. Those who “do Jesus' Father's will” and those who do not. None will be left in the middle.
And we all will be judged – Rom 14:10.
But that does not mean that we all will be punished. Judgement can also be a process of deremining whether you are good or bad. Whether you deserve life or death.
However, it is not us who decide if we are righteous or not. It is Jesus to whom God gave the authority to judge.
Even if we think that we are good in our own eyes, it does not neccessarely make it so in God's eyes. Therefore we must study Bible to know what is God's will and we must constantly check ourselves agains the “mirror” that is Bible.

[Human]

liljon,

Whom did Jews call their God? YHWH.

Whom did Jesus call his father?

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

You see? Jesus called YHWH his father. Jesus never said that he is YHWH. Jesus never said that he is God or equal to God. He consistently taught quite the opposite – that he is God's son and that God is greater than he. All the glory, power, and knowledge that Jesus has is given by God YHWH, his Father.

[Human]

Just wanted to add a quick post to those on this forum who still are in favour of trinity and try to prove it by using scriptures who are applied to YHWH in one point and later to Jesus.

I can easily “prove” to you that Samuel is YHWH!

1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

Psalms 89:20 I have found My servant David; With My holy oil I have anointed him

You can see that this logic is absurd! Of course Samuel was not part of the trinity. He was simply God's agent – he was performing God's task. Can we say that Samuel anointed David? Yes. Can we say that YHWH anointed David? Yes. Are Samuel and YHWH the same? No.

The same with God's Son Jesus. He is God's Word. He is God's most powerful agent. He performs God's tasks. But he is not God YHWH himself.

[Human]

Hi Nick,

In my opinion our views are not that different. Let me clarify.

Of course Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins of the world and to save all people. God wants all people to be saved – 2 Peter 3:9. He also has provided everything for every person to get saved (Jesus' sacrifice). However, we know that not all people will be saved – 2 Thess 1:7-9. Not all people want to. The Bible sets some prerequisites for salvation from eternal destruction – Rev 21:8, 1 Corinth 6:9-10.

What I mean by salvation? Well there are several salvations that we can point out:

1) salvation from death (result of sin) (1 Corinth 15:22; 1 John 3:14; Rev 21:4) – I do not mean by this that we will not die. This means that we have the hope of being resurrected and live for ever.
2) salvation from desctruction in Armageddon (2 Thess 1:7-9; Mat 25:31-46)
3) salvation from the evil system of this world (John 17:15; James 1:27)

And salvation is not something that we can get once and then have it forever – Mat 24:13. God has prepared a path for salvation but we have to walk this path ourselves. Not just one step but the whole distance.

Hope this cleared up some things!

[Human]

Hi Nick,

I agree with you.
Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. He is the first created being and through him God created everything else. Jesus is unique and only through him we can get salvation from death. He has bought us with his perfect sacrifice. Since our lives belong to Jesus, he has full authority to determine to whom he shall give the salvation and resurrection and forgiveness of sins (resulting from his sacrifice). He has full authority in heaven and on earth.
However, (to Modem Mouth) this does not mean that Jesus has taken God's place.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For, as it says, He has put all things under his feet. But when he says, All things are put under him, it is clear that it is not said about him who put all things under him.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD [YHWH], that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus is God's solution to problems caused by Satan and the rebellion in Eden.

Nick,
btw here is how others translate John 1:18.

(NKJV) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared.

(RSV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

(BBE) John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is.

In most manuscripts, there is only one “God” in this verse.

[Human]

Modem Mouth,

“what God was, the Word was.” (The New English Bible)

“the Logos was divine.” (The New Translation of the Bible; J. Moffatt)

“the Word was divine.” (The Bible – An American Translation)

“the Word was divine.” (The Authentic New Testament)

“the Word was a god”; (The New World Translation)

“the Word was a god”; (The New Testament in an Improved Version)

These are also greek language experts but they did not agree with the “traditional” – “Word was God.”
Obviously there IS some trick in the original text. Therefore we cannot build a doctrine on this single verse ignoring the rest of the Bible. Especially, if you take verse 18 in the same chapter, which says that noone has seen God.

[Human]

t8,

Please do not underestimate the value Christian gathering together.

Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Micah 4:1-2 And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, “Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

God has always wanted his servants to be an organized group (for example, take ancient Israel and its laws). Christians in the first century were an organized group. If you are saying that it is not important to gather together with fellow Christians and one can easily stand by himself – then you are expressing your point of view not the Bible's.

However, it is not good enough to belong to any Christian group.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.“

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Then how can we know who are the true followers of Jesus?

Jesus explained to us how we can identify false Christians:

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

So it is not just who speak God's words but also who obey them.

About which Christian group can you tell the following?:
Fully base their beliefs on Bible, not traditions (2 Tim 3:16)
Preach the Kingdom of God in whole world (Mat 24:14; Acts 19:8)
Recognize God's name (Acts 2:21; Ps 113:2, Mat 6:9)
Recognize Jesus as the only head of the congregation (Col 1:18)
Make disciples and teach them (Matt 28:19-20)
Have love among themselves (John 13:35)
Hated by the world (2 Tim 3:12; John 15:18-19)
Obstain from idols (Ex 20:4, John 4:24)
Not from this world (1 John 2:15)
Full agreement and no division among themselves (1 Corinthians 1:10)

[Human]

Hi Nick,

Well, for example, Satan also was one of the strongest angels in the heaven – Ezek 28:12-19. In fact, he is called “the anointed cherub”. He has millions of fallen angels under his command, therefore he is also a prince – one of the strongest princes. Most probably he is the next strongest person after Jesus, though we do not know for sure. There are others, but Jesus is still the greatest and strongest – he was created first and through him the rest.

Interestingly, Heb 1:4 you quoted states that after going to heaven Jesus has become greater than angels.

Is this the only teaching that you do not agree with JWs?

[Human]

Thanks for your answers, Nick!

Michael was called “one of the foremost princes” and “the prince of you people.” Later, Michael was referred to as “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of Daniel’s people.” (Daniel 10:21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel assigned by Jehovah to lead the Israelites through the wilderness.—Exodus 23:20-23; 32:34; 33:2.
Lending support to this conclusion is the disciple Jude’s statement that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.” (Jude 9) Michael’s position, power, and authority made him truly “the archangel.”

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel. This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.

There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

None of these thoughts is beyond the Word of God. However, there is no much point in arguing about what titles can be applied to Jesus. Most importantly we must understand what role Jesus plays in the God's plan in restoring the paradise.

[Human]

Hi Nick,

Matthew 24:30 is speaking about gathering faithful people during/just before Armageddon. After that the rest are destroyed. It is not about resurrection.

Also an interesting point – Mat 24:30 says that Son of God has his angels. Michael is also said to have his angels as in Rev 12. Nowhere it says that Son of God has archangels. “archangel” is always in sigular in Bible. The Bible does not provide a definition for an archangel. Therefore, an archangle can also be the second greatest being in the universe – right after God YHWH. It does not have to be a simple angel.

Nick, please also comment on the following question I posted in my previous reply!

When you say that the “kings and priests” will be physically present on earth during the millenium rule, how do you then understand the following verses?

John 15:2-3 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Luke 17:20 Some Pharisees asked Jesus when God's kingdom would come. He answered, “God's kingdom isn't something you can see.

Where is Jesus going to be (remeber that God's kings and priests will be with Jesus)?

1 Peter 3:22 Christ is now in heaven, where he sits at the right side of God. All angels, authorities, and powers are under his control.

[Human]

Hi Nick,

Well, about those tribes of Israel. You can compare Rev 7 with Genesis 49 or Numbers 1.
Also take a look at Luke 1:33 – “And He [Jesus] will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Do you think the author ment a literal house of Jacob (Israel)? The literal house of Jacob was destroyed in 70 C.E when Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Nowdays noone can prove that he/she belongs to a particular tribe of Israel. Bible also speaks in many places that the chance of becoming a holy nation will be taken away from the Jews and will be given to Gentiles.
In Luke 1, the author speaks about a spiritual Israel (“circumcised in heart”) and the same with Rev 7 and Rev 14.

About Jesus being an archangel: well there are several points to consider:
1) Jesus is Son of God and all angels are called “sons of God”
2) as you mentioned, 1 Thess 4:16 tells us that the dead will raise up whem they hear the archangel's voice. John 5:28 tells us that the dead will hear Jesus' voice. Jude 9 tells us that Michael is an archangel. There are no other archangels mentioned in the Bible.
3) Rev 12:7 tells us that Michael is the one leading his army of angels against Satan and, when Satan is thrown down, Rev 12:10 tells us that “the power of Christ has come”.
4) Rev 20:1 says that an “angel” comes down from heaven and binds Satan for 1000 years. Do you think there is a simple angel who can bind Satan, especially when you think how powerful is Satan (look at Ezek 28:12-19).
5) JWs do not say that Jesus is just a simple angel. JWs believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God and through him everything was created, including angels. Therefore I do not think that the title “archangel” is an under-estimate.

I hope this sheds some light!

btw – when you say that the “kings and priests” will be physically present on earth during the millenium rule, how do you then understand the following verses?

John 15:2-3 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Luke 17:20 Some Pharisees asked Jesus when God's kingdom would come. He answered, “God's kingdom isn't something you can see.

Where is Jesus going to be (remeber that God's kings and priests will be with Jesus)?

1 Peter 3:22 Christ is now in heaven, where he sits at the right side of God. All angels, authorities, and powers are under his control.

[Human]

Thanks for your comment, Nick!

Let me just slightly clarify what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
About the 144,000: JWs believe that only these will go to heaven to be “kings and priests” with Jesus. These are the “little flock” that Jesus spoke about. Daniel also wrote in his book that there will be a “holy nation” that will rule over earth. HOWEVER, these are not the only ones that will be saved. JWs teach that there will be millions of people that will be ressurected to live on earth and a large number of people will survive in Armageddon. Actually if you think about it, that is exactly what God intended in the beginning – earth full with righteous people. And, as we know, God does not change and he does not draw back from his intentions.
The 144,000 are not the literal tribes of Israel because 1) Rev 5:9-10 tells us that they are bought from “all nations” and 2) the list of the Israel tribes in Rev is different from the one in Hebrew scriptures.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a solution not a destination. Jesus would never have to come to earth if Adam did not sin.

You posted a good question – how can we know that the head of the body is Jesus not man? How can we know that the holy spirit is guiding them? Well, there is no simple way to answer that without carefully examining what JWs do and how their preaching work is organized. The decision is up to each person separately.
However, the points that I would like to separate out are JWs' 1) strict reliance on the Bible and not traditions 2) scope and emphasis on the preaching work in the whole world.
And why do you think that they are not “free”? There is a difference between a) being forbidden to do something and b) knowing God's mind and Bible's view on what is bad and what is wrong. JWs as we all are free to do whatever we want, however not anything we do pleases God. Do you not agree? And we cannot know what pleases God if we do not study Bible.

However, these are subjective issues that everyone can disagree for one or another reason. I was more talking about what they teach.
I suggest just taking a closer look at JWs' beliefs and the scriptural basis for that.

[Author]

Posts