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[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 26 2011,06:35)

Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 25 2011,01:22) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 18 2011,16:04) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2011,20:20) It is true that ice takes up more volume than water, but it is not the melting of the ice so much as the thermal expansion of the water that is the mechanism which will raise water levels. Stuart Yeah that was my understanding. But if you talk to the average person, they think the sea levels will rise because there is more water. It is not mentioned enough (if at all) in media for people to understand that. Greetings T8….The majority of the global warming activists are victims of bad science and lies by opportunic authors like Al Gore …..His book is a lot of crap supported by bad science and his lies..(ref:Earth in the Balance) I wouldn't let the fact that Al Gore's film and book are exaggerations for political effect put you off the fact that there still is a solid scientific basis to what he is saying.  There is little disagreement about the nature of the effects, and my reading of the objections to An Inconvenient Truth are that he presents something closer to the worst case scenario.  Take the disappearance of Lake Chad, for example.  He blames that on anthropogenic climate change.  Climate change deniers, or anthropogenic cause deniers claim Lake Chad is dwindling because of reasons of altered patterns of use for irrigation.  Both point of view are applicable, but the irrigation use accounts for only 5% of the disappearance of the lake. Similarly with other effects, a black-and-white political approach is not going to be helpful with what is, as Dennis Tate says, a complex situation. Stuart

Exceptionally well said Stuart.

I am continually amazed how so many people concentrate on a factor that accounts for 5% of a problem and conclude from that tiny factor that the biggest forces at work are irrelevant!?

Back to ocean level rise I am of the opinion that the following statement regarding the possibility of rapid melting of the WAIS is valid:

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The West Antarctic Ice Sheet(WAIS) is a unique marine ice sheet, anchored to bedrock, and in places it dips thousands of metres below sea level with margins that are floating. Other marine ice sheets existed in the Northern Hemisphere during the last glacial maximum but all disintegrated and melted away during the current warm period. The West Antarctic Ice Sheet is the only marine ice sheet remaining from the last glacial period. Marine ice sheets are important because their existence and future behaviour depend not only on atmospheric conditions and ice movement, but also on sea level changes. As the sea level rises, more of the ice at the edge of the sheet floats, and the forces that hold the ice sheet together are reduced, causing ice to flow more rapidly to the oceans. This positive feed-back loop (sea-level rise, leading to reduced forces holding the ice together, leading to increased ice flow into the ocean, leading to sea level rise) could lead to rapid disintegration or collapse of a marine ice sheet. The present ice sheet would not need to melt and thin by much in order for the ice to begin to float. When the glaciers begin to float, warm ocean water is able to reach the undersides of the floating glacier tongues and melt rates increase significantly. This means that the West Antarctic ice sheet may be uniquely capable of rapid deglaciation (melting), and many scientists are quite concerned about this possibility. If the WAIS was to melt and disappear it would raise sea level by an average of 6 metres (19.6 feet).

http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/west-antarctic-ice-sheet.html

[DennisTate]

Here is one of Dr. Hansen's statements to this effect:

http://www.crudeoilpeak.com/?p=767

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//TONY JONES: Okay, well you’re talking about what you find from the examination of ice core data. Is there a comparable period in history, the history of the planet that is, where warming accelerates due to these feedback mechanisms, and do you get much more rapid sea level rises during that period? JAMES HANSEN: Yeah, well, in the relatively recent paleoclimate, coming from the last ice age to the present interglacial period that we’ve been living in for 10,000 years, when that icesheet, the big icesheet on North America began to disintegrate, sea level went up five metres per century. That’s one meter every 20 years for several centuries. So once an icesheet begins to melt and begins to disintegrate, things can move very rapidly…..//

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 26 2011,06:38)

Quote (DennisTate @ Jan. 24 2011,23:44) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2011,20:20) It is true that ice takes up more volume than water, but it is not the melting of the ice so much as the thermal expansion of the water that is the mechanism which will raise water levels. Stuart Actually from what I have read it is the sheer amount of ice on top of land in Greenland and Antarctica that if melted would raise ocean levels. The Arctic ice is melting fast over the past couple of decades but it is ice floating in water and adds virtually nothing to ocean level rise as it melts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWqeZkcNTc&feature=related Time is running out… This is true, and I think Al Gore was discussing the potential results of an instantaneous melt of both land-based ice masses raising sea levels by an extrordinary amount, but that is not going to happen instantly.  What will happen is that the water will continue to rise relatively slowly by thermal expansion AND ice melt. Stuart

Stuart, you are right in line with the majority of experts in thinking that ocean level rise is probably going to be gradual but I believe that Dr. James Hansen is absolutely correct when he points out that in the past ocean levels rose by twenty meters over four centuries when global temperatures rose by about three degrees.

This is one meter every two decades and I personally cannot think of any other way to offset such an astonishing rise in ocean levels other than to desalinate the water and dump it in a desert area such as the Sahara?!?!

The water table in India is down by eigthy feet in many areas due to the decrease in water melting off the Himalaya glaciers.

At this time we are allowing economists to profoundly limit what humanity is able to accomplish but in theory we certainly could turn significant portions of the world's deserts green.

I personally am convinced that the entire world can initiate a vastly different monetary policy any day that the political will is there to do so.

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Mr. Ignatieff, if my theory is thoroughly in error, I am sorry, but as of this moment on January 25, 2011 I am convinced that it is theoretically possible for you to assist Prime Minister Harper to add roughly SIXTY BILLION tax free, interest free dollars to the 2011 or 2012 Canadian federal budget by following the advice given in this video by NDP Leader Jack Layton, Green Party Leader Elizabeth May and former Liberal Prime Minister John Turner. Oh Canada Movie 6 – Banking – 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1HfKIvmZGU “We never should have privatized our debt and turned it over to the private banks, we should have kept it in the hands of the Bank of Canada, at least a major part of it, because then we would have been paying interest back to ourselves.” (NDP Leader Jack Layton) In this video, if I understand her properly, Green Party Leader Ms. Elizabeth May advocates that Prime Minister Harper could theoretically use the Bank of Canada to make a loan to the federal government for the entirety of our national debt that is owed to private banks AT AN INTEREST RATE OF ZERO PERCENT! This loan could theoretically be used to pay off all Canadian federal, provincial and even perhaps municipal level debt to private banks. From then on the interest rate being charged by the Bank of Canada, that is truly in a sense owned by all Canadians, could be zero percent but even if a token level of interest was charged, even this amount would be paid back to the Bank of Canada which we own! This measure could theoretically reduce the burden on Canadian taxpayers by somewhere in the range of SIXTY BILLION DOLLARS annually depending on the exact interest rate that would have been charged to them by the privately owned banks! Mr. Ignatieff, if you could convince Prime Minister Harper to adopt this measure this would initiate nothing less than a paradigm shift in Canadian monetary policy that could have an astonishingly positive effect on not only on our own economy, but also perhaps in virtually every American State.

Topic: Mr. Michael Ignatieff, Prime Minister Harper, President Obama could sure use your assistance!
http://www.facebook.com/topic.p….=134608

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2011,20:18)

Not all the energy hitting desert areas is absorbed.  You should find that since these areas are lighter in colour there should be more of that light reflected back into space.  After all that is how the satellites are able to photograph them as whiter. The areas of vegetation are more effective in absorbing the light and converting it to heat than the deserts. Stuart

Stuart, I just want to say that this is an exceptionally good comment!

You are correct that desert areas due to their lighter color do reflect a significant amount of heat back out into space which is another one of those important factors in the entire equation that makes the subject of climate change astonishingly complex and difficult to fully understand, even by genuine experts on the subject, which I Dennis Tate certainly am not!

I truly appreciate being able to debate this subject at this level Stuart!

[DennisTate]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 17 2011,15:24)

Yes, it is easy to observe how much cooler a forest is compared to an adjacent plain with no trees. I read somewhere that Israel effectively changed their climate and is one of a few places where desertification is reversed. When desertification takes place, it also blows hotter air to areas outside of the desert and drys out the plants, nopt to mention their destruction through fire etc. This process can help the spread of the desert. If it was reversed it would surely cool the planet as you say.

I would love to have a link into that article on how Israel has changed its climate?

Israel has been in the number one or two spot for decades for planting trees. Also Israel is a world leader in desalinating water to make desert areas productive or turn them into forests so I am very interested in exactly how this has affected their climate.

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2011,20:20)

It is true that ice takes up more volume than water, but it is not the melting of the ice so much as the thermal expansion of the water that is the mechanism which will raise water levels. Stuart

Actually from what I have read it is the sheer amount of ice on top of land in Greenland and Antarctica that if melted would raise ocean levels.

The Arctice ice is melting fast over the past couple of decades but it is ice floating in water and adds virtually nothing to ocean level rise as it melts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWqeZkcNTc&feature=related

Time is running out…

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 24 2011,22:50)

You are taking what Hawking said far too seriously.  Einstein and he both mock your god constantly.  They don't built “greater constructs” than your god, they simply use “god” in the metaphorical sense akin to the idea of Spinoza, personifying the universe in rhetorical use as much as anything. There never was a god to delete in Hawking's view. It would have made little difference if he had not mentioned any god. As for evolutionary processes that produce species, you do realise he is a cosmologist not a biologist, don't you. Stuart

Stuart, I don't blame you one bit if you are highly skeptical regarding the following conversation between near death experiencer Christian Andreason and Albert Einstein but I personally am profoundly impressed by the content and calibre of what they discuss and I will not be at all shocked later on if I find out that Christian Andreason did indeed meet Einstein in some sort of out of the body state?!

http://www.christianandreason.com/
link: for the spirit…

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Our spiritual brother, Albert Einstein A moment happened in the beginning of my experience where Albert Einstein, the famous scientist, came forward to speak with me. While at first I could not make out his face, by the 'feel' of his energy I knew exactly who he was as soon as he appeared. To be perfectly honest, I really never had much of an interest in Einstein before, so I found it interesting that I was seeing him now, and what amazed me at the time was that he seemed to know exactly who I waseven though he died in 1955, 14 years before I was born. He explained that he wanted to answer a few questions I was starting to have about some of the codes and scientific theories I was now seeing on the screen held behind me. He told me it was important for me to fully understand, so I could accomplish my destiny on Earth. I remember wondering how it was that he could speak of and claim to know of my destiny, when I myself did not have a clue? As he spoke to me about space, time and relativity I was aware that Einstein had been (and still was) a great teacher who not only had been born to our world, but that he had also come to many other worlds' in God's Super Universe to help them advance in scientific and social understanding. As his energy stood before me, it was like being near an old friend who just happened to be tremendously brilliant, and what I found completely remarkable was how he was able to explain even the most complex notion in such an easy to understand way. Not only was he incredibly kind, sincere and funny; he always seemed to be completely interested in my views. We started discussing sound and the use of music and harmonies for the purpose of transporting energy into a space. It surprised me that I actually started to believe I knew more about this particular subject than he seemed toand when he showed me a supernaturally displayed diagram of what the Universe looks like before and after sound has entered it, I challenged him in our discussion about the use of tonal dissonance, which led to another discussion about the opening of some sort of time/space portal and the filling of space with atomic, neutrino type matter. I understood that this matter absorbed and recorded absolutely that happened within the space it filled. Without thinking, I began speaking about the use of positive and negative energy, and that if too much challenging energy fills a space, the atmosphere becomes tainted and is never as pure as before. We spoke about Nazi Germany and how the vile actions performed there, when Hitler was in power, forever altered the energies in that part of the world. Ultimately, Einstein seemed highly interested (and even humored) by my assertions. And as he saw that I was shocked by my own sudden burst of self confidence, he congratulated me on what he called my “chutzpa” (hut-spa)a word I had never heard before until then, which I later found out was a Yiddish term expressing, “sudden and unexpected boldness.” While our actual conversation seemed brief in comparison with everything else I encountered during my NDE, Einstein did manage to impart a tremendous amount of information to me in a way that I can only call, “telepathic”not only could I hear his thoughts and explanations fully in my mind, I could also see actual multi-dimensional, moving, colorful demonstrations as well. It was like watching a live documentary that is being broadcast into your mind. Unfortunately, most of what I was shown is not always easy for me to recall at will, but I am sure it is all still subconsciously with me, because I will sometimes find myself suddenly able to explain some of the things Einstein showed me on a “as needed” basis during my one-on-one sessionsand then be completely stunned by what I just remembered!.

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 17 2011,18:50)

Quote I wrote up a blog on this idea last February.  If you are interested there are some intriguing quotations there on invisible dimensions and why they should exist from articles on theoretical physics. ]http://www.carbonbias.blogspot.com/ It doesn’t take long to spot the problem.  It’s there in the first paragraph: “ I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.“ Evolution is a fact explained by the theory of natural selection.  The fact is based on the overwhelming empirical evidence for it, and the theory of natural selection is similarly dependent only on observations to be made in the space-time that we are able to observe.  So actually “evolution” says nothing about anything beyond four dimensions.  Far from limiting it, it is as far as it can go with any honesty.  It would be a mistake to think there would be any validity in extrapolating a scientific theory mathematically into further dimensions.  It is difficult enough to establish confidence in scientific theories within the dimensions we think we can observe.  Further, what would be the point?  How would we know there was speciation going on beyond the scope of our observation that required explanation? Stuart

Wow Stuart, exceptional questions and yes, my health is excellent lately. In many ways I feel vastly better at 51 than I did back when I was 25!

Stuart my primary objective when I wrote up that blog was to encourage people who believe firmly in evolution but have became extremely skeptical about the existence of any sort of God or higher plan for our lives to realize that those near death experience accounts might not be mere fantasy as many scientists suppose them to be.

I believe that Intelligent Design Theory or Theistic Evolutionary Theory if taught in schools could produce a much more well adjusted generation of young people especially if they get into the possible implications of the positive near death experience accounts.

This quotation is from an article in Psychology Today, it is entitled Bright Lights, Big Mystery, published on July 1, 1992.
….

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For Sappington and others, the issue is not whether the person is actually meeting God, but why NDErs routinely seem better adjusted, more at peace and content with themselves and the world after their experience. Disregarding, for the time being at least, how they got that way, and focusing on the changes themselves, psychologists would like to borrow this newfound sense of well-being and utilize it in therapy. Reports are highly consistent and common: “I understand things so much more” and “My senses all seem heightened.” Subjects claim “sudden knowledge and comprehension of complex mathematical theorems.” Psychologist Ring has identified a consistent set of value and belief changes. They include: a greater appreciation for life o higher self-esteem o greater compassion for others o a heightened sense of purpose and self-understanding o desire to learn o elevated spirituality o greater ecological sensitivity and planetary concern o a feeling of being more intuitive, sometimes psychic. o He also observes “psychophysical changes,” including: o increased physical sensitivity o diminished tolerance to light, alcohol, and drugs o a feeling that their brains have been “altered” to encompass more o a feeling that they are now using their “whole brain” rather than just a small part. NDErs undergo radical changes in personality, and their,significant others–spouses, friends, relatives–confirm these changes, reports Bruce Greyson, M.D., clinical psychiatrist and associate professor at the University of Connecticut. Like Sappington, he is concerned with what can be learned from such new outlooks on life.// (PsychologyToday .com)

[DennisTate]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 17 2011,19:55)

Quote (DennisTate @ Jan. 16 2011,12:28) Later on I read Stephen Hawking's Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. Of course he thought that because he was intelligent enough to know that it was extremely unlikely that this universe came about the way it did without a God (which he appears to believe anyway). Hence, go for the next best thing, i.e., invent a greater construct and explain it away by saying that is was the quadtrillionth trillionth billion attempt in a metaverse of universes. In other words ours is a lucky universe but luck when tried again and again might eventually happen.   If he was wiser he would see that the universe testifies to a creator and that even a metaverse of trillions of universes still requires a cause and intelligence. But belief of any kind can be very blind. It is just a pity that he has many followers who don't even think as deep about such things as he appears to have and are ready to follow his beliefs as if his words were the words of a prophet. Prophet Hawking needs to imagine such stuff in the absence of a God, he has no choice. Most of his followers of course haven't thought much about his thought processes on such statements and think it is all maths and science, when in fact such a statement is purely imagined in order to delete God from the picture and bolster his belief system.

t8, Your reply to this is perhaps the best and most rational that I have ever gotten in any forum….since I began discussing this general idea back around 2003….we are on essentially the same page.

Yes, Dr. Hawking does seem determined to figure out some way to do away with an all powerful Creator who certainly would not be forced to use an evolutionary process to produce various species.

t8, I will be surprised if you do not find the following web page exceptionally useful as you debate this subject in the future. I refer to it often:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

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NDE supports a theory of consciousness One particular theory of consciousness is supported by NDE research an involves consciousness expansion after death. Stanislav Grof explains this theory: (a) My first idea was that it [consciousness] has to be hard-wired in the brain. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how something like that is possible.Today, I came to the conclusion that it is not coming from the brain. In that sense, it supports what Aldous Huxley believed after he had some powerful psychedelic experiences and was trying to link them to the brain. He came to the conclusion that maybe the brain acts as a kind of reducing valve that actually protects us from too much cosmic input … I don't think you can locate the source of consciousness. I am quite sure it is not in the brain not inside of the skull … It actually, according to my experience, would lie beyond time and space, so it is not localizable. You actually come to the source of consciousness when you dissolve any categories that imply separation, individuality, time, space and so on. You just experience it as a presence. (Stanislav Grof)

[DennisTate]

So far we have seen essentially no rise in ocean levels because the central, land based, super cold region of Antarcica is taking in huge amounts of atmospheric moisture and adding it to its colossal amount of ice.

//Let us consider Antarctica for a moment.
We have already seen that it is big. It has a land area of 5.5
million square miles, and is presently covered by something in excess
of seven million cubic miles of ice weighing an estimated 19
quadrillion tons (19 followed by 15 zeros). What worries the
theorists of earth-crust displacement is that this vast ice-cap is
remorselessly increasing in size and weight:'at the rate of 293 cubic
miles of ice each year–almost as much as if Lake Ontario were frozen
solidly annually and added to it.// (Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of
the Gods, page 480).

A very different thing is happening up north:

//The Greenland ice sheet had been losing between 150 and 200 cubic kilometers a year in 2002, and now is losing almost 300 cubic kilometers a year.// (Dr. James Hansen)
climateprogress.org/2009/12/02/climategate-newsweek-nasa-james-hansen-deniers-climate-science/

I highly recommend doing a search for the West Antarctic Ice Sheet and research what is happening to it and how its complete collapse could raise ocean levels by five meters or more to grasp how serious the situation is.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0420_040420_earthday_2 .html

//The complete melting of Greenland would raise sea levels by 7 meters (23 feet). But even a partial melting would cause a one-meter (three-foot) rise. Such a rise would have a devastating impact on low-lying island countries, such as the Indian Ocean's Maldives, which would be entirely submerged.

Densely populated areas like the Nile Delta and parts of Bangladesh would become uninhabitable, potentially driving hundreds of millions of people from their land.

A one-meter sea level rise would wreak particular havoc on the Gulf Coast and eastern seaboard of the United States.

"No one will be free from this," said Overpeck, whose maps show that every U.S. East Coast city from Boston to Miami would be swamped. A one-meter sea rise in New Orleans, Overpeck said, would mean "no more Mardi Gras." //(National Geographic)

[DennisTate]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 16 2011,22:12)

You wouldn't be a drunken sailor yourself, would you? Stuart

You wouldn't be a drunken sailor yourself, would you?

Stuart

Hey Stuart: I thank God that I was in the part of my family who had bleeding ulsers since I was a kid so that the probability of my being one of the alcoholics was greatly decreased!

I believe that the implications of God perhaps evolving, learning and becoming better and better at creating and inventing various life forms over infinite time previous to the Big Bang may tell us a lot about the nature of God.

Rick Joyner was shown that one human life had more value than a galaxy of stars that were without life:

//As I approached the Judgment Seat of Christ, those in the highest ranks were also sitting on thrones that were all a part of His throne. Even the least of these thrones was more glorious than any earthly throne many times over. Some of these were rulers over cities on earth who would soon take their place. Others were rulers over the affairs of heaven, and others over the affairs of the physical creation, such as star systems and galaxies. However, it was apparent that those who were given authority over cities were esteemed above those who had even been given authority over galaxies. The value of a single child was more than a galaxy of stars, because the Holy Spirit dwelt in men, and the Lord had chosen men as His eternal dwelling place. In the presence of His glory the whole earth seemed as insignificant as a speck of dust, and yet was so infinitely esteemed that the attention of the whole host of heaven was upon it.// (Rick Joyner, The Hordes of Hell Are Marching)
http://www.heaven.net.nz/visions/the-hordes-of-hell-are-marching.htm

If you had spent essentially eternity working and striving to invent angelic life forms and then later material life forms you would certainly tend to profoundly value what you had formed after having worked for eternity on the project.

I wrote up a blog on this idea last February. If you are interested there are some intriguing quotations there on invisible dimensions and why they should exist from articles on theoretical physics.
http://www.carbonbias.blogspot.com/

[DennisTate]

Judging from what I have read about energy from the quantum vacuum or zero point energy this experiment may yield some astonishing results.

[DennisTate]

For the record I wrote this to bother my buddies who are atheists and I was hoping that you might have some similar success with this line of thought.

[DennisTate]

Personally I do love the Book of Adam and Eve and I will not be surprised if I find out after I die that it may have been one of the books that were alluded to in scripture. I love the Book of Jasher as well. At the least they are vastly better reading than a bestselling fiction novel which I haven't had time for in years.

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