Search Members

[DORA]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2005,23:15)

Hi Dora, It appears that what you believe is not what scripture says: Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. [ Or from days of eternity ] “

(heb 1:1) “God, who at sundry times & in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets”…it appears if you compare scritpture with scripture that “the ancient times” is speaking of what paul calls “time past” & refers to prophetic announcement of the coming Messiah

days of eternity is a contradiction in terms…days refers to time & eternity has no time

[DORA]

if it is true that we could walk on water too then why hasnt anyone except Jesus…clearly Jesus was far superior to other humans…he was the anointed ONE, & heir of heaven & earth…he was flesh as we are & tempted in all points like we are but he never sinned…he was born without sin while all others are born sinners

[DORA]

I believe the pre existance of Messiah, the anointed one, was his predestination…he did not exist as divine son until he was begotten in flesh…his birth was his beginning…(Ps 2:7) YVAH speaks of the son & decrees “this day” have I begotten you

the word decree means “an appointment of time or space”…it denotes predestination & not pre existance

there is a belief that all was made in the spirit before it was made in the material world & that includes the spirits of men…I think that may be possible but that would mean that the spirit that pre existed with God became incarnate at birth…a spirit is not the same as a spirit body…angels are spirit bodies…(Ps 104) says that God made the angels spirits or spirit bodies…flesh & blood was made a living soul

a soul does not exist without the flesh body as the soul is the spirit & body as a whole…paul says in (2thes 5:23) that he prays that our “whole” body & spirit & soul be saved…the wholeness of body & spirit is soul…soul is the expression of body & spirit as a whole…

(2 cor 7:1) “let us cleanse ouselves from all filthiness of the flesh & spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God”…notice that paul doesnt mention the soul in this scripture…that is because the soul is the spirit & body as a whole

the spirit can be saved while the body is lost due to the corruption of the flesh…we reap what we sow & if we sow to the flesh we reap corruption…if the body is lost even though the spirit is saved due to faith in Jesus but walking in the works of the flesh then the soul is lost…

the soul is expression of body & spirit & if the body is destroyed in the lake of fire even though the spirit is saved then the expression of spirit & body is lost also, thus the soul is lost…this is the condition that Jesus refers to as outer darkness…

the spirit is saved from eternal damnation, but the body is destroyed, thus the expression of soul is lost…Jesus came to save the soul but the soul can be lost even with faith in Jesus…this is the result of sowing to the flesh…the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom, & only those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God (romans 8:14)

the place often spoken of by Jesus called outer darkness is overlooked & believed to be eternal damnation…I am inclined to believe that it refers to the expression of the soul being lost even though the spirit is saved

paul once spoke about a man in the church being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his soul may be saved…the man was a practicing believer who continued to sin

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2005,21:27)

Hi Dora, You seem surprised that we do not  easily accept your understandings? Your assumptions and preconceptions are vastly different and tortuous. eg Son of Man means ruler-where does this come from? It is fine to share your understandings but not to teach them here. Here the truths from the Word of God are sought and shared. But some seem to establish their doctrines and then come back and publically attack the Word of God and try to destroy simple revealed truths such as that of the reality of Satan and the soul. That is the problem. The faith of the 'newborn' could be damaged. We should not be surprised as Jesus warned they would even deny him. 1 thess tells us we are spirit, soul and body and they are separate and different.

1 thes does not tell us that we are spirit, soul, & body & they are separate & different as you say, but you are free to believe that is true if you wish…i have no argument with you

i'm aware that paul says he prays that our “whole” spirit & soul & body be preserved blameless (1thes 5:23)…this does not say they are separate…it says they are a whole & if you use all scripture instead of one vs you can rightly divide his meaning

for example, in the creation account of Adam you find that God formed the body & breathed into it & Adam “became” a living soul or spirit man, thus, this indicates clearly that the body & spirit as a whole = the soul

you falsely accuse me of assumptions & preconceptions (???)…i leave that with you to judge

[DORA]

fyi, the term son of man meaning ruler is found in the encyclopedia judaica…dont you use knowledge of biblical history in your study?

[DORA]

here is a nuget of interest (at least it was to me )

the scripture where Jesus says “before Abraham was I am” is not used as it is taught to mean that Jesus is “the” I AM

the word before actually is used in the sense of being greater than & not as in a time…the correct rendering of that scripture would more accurately be translated, “I am greater than Abraham” or “one greater than Abraham am I”

[DORA]

just a few comments & thoughts>>>was Jesus a pre existing thought or a pre existing deity that lowered himself into becoming a seed in the womb of a woman, which is the teaching of both trinity & oneness theology?

Jesus was not a thought…he was purpose in the beginning…he was the purpose for the creation & formation of all things…the expression of that purpose was “let there be light” on day one…the logos, word was not formed or created..the “light” already existed because God is light…essentially what God said is “let the light be that is”…this is not pre existance but rather predestination

God saw the end from the beginning & all was His express image, which is His son…the light that God expressed in the beginning was the purpose to bring forth His express image in flesh…this does not mean that Jesus is deity because God alone is deity, but the light that God purposed in the beginning was the anointing that belonged uniquely to His hier…His hier of all that He made & formed, ie, the heavens & the earth & all the hosts thereof…the hosts are often overlooked (this is the angelic beings that are not flesh & blood)…even the angelic beings were made for the son to inherit

the light which was the anointed one (Messiah) was made flesh when Mary concieved…she did not concieve by the spirit of God as taught…God spoke in the order of procreation that like would beget like kind…Mary was flesh & the seed she concieved was flesh or she could not have concieved it…God used the genetic process, ie, he was begotten of a seed & an egg in the womb of a woman

we are told how this was accomplished & it isnt a mystery as taught…God gave the covenant to Abraham for the seed, but it was foretold all the way back in the garden after the fall…it was foretold in the very order of nature itself, ie, all things in the earth originate with a seed…the tree of life is a foreshadowing of Messiah as are other things in the garden, but God foretold that the seed would be the seed of the woman (not the man)…God took woman out of man to bring His only begotten son of the woman

the covenant to accomplish this was with Abraham…Isaac was also a miraculous conception only it was the literal seed of Abraham & God generated the egg in Sarah's womb (we know this bc Abe later had other offspring with his 2nd wife)…God said the seed (Messiah) would be called in Isaac…that means in the genetics of Isaac there was the pattern for a female to be born with a seed in her womb (some would call it a mutation)

when Mary became furtile Gabriel was sent to her to tell her the seed was in her womb & gave her all the details of her conception…the conception was the result of the quickening spirit of life that is God Himself…does that mean that Jesus is God? no…he was concieved by the anointing that was his alone, ie, the light…he was not that light but was fully joined to that light by that anointing

his anointing was that of hier, the anointed one (uniquely begotten son destined to inherit all creation)…this takes some explaining which would take too much time…i will say this>>>Jesus was fully a human being…he never claimed to be deity…he knew who he was without any question & he knew he was unique to any other human being…he is Lord over all creation, including humanity (psalm 2) says “ask of me (YVAH, the Father & only deity) & I will give you the heathen for an inheritance”…everything belongs to Jesus & he is the only way to be reconciled to deity, who is YVAH, his father & ours (john 20:17)

[DORA]

(matt 16:23) Jesus “turned, & said unto peter, get you behind me, satan: you are an offense to me: for you savor not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”

Jesus is saying that the flesh nature, which is against the will of God due to ignorance of God & His ways is satan…peter was one of the chosen few who followed Jesus & beleived he was Messiah…Jesus told peter that upon the revelation that he was Messiah that he would build his church & the gates of hell would not prevail against it, yet to the same man Jesus now says “you are satan”

we are told that the flesh wars with the spirit & the two are contrary one to the other…that is the definition of an adversary

in other scripture the phrase, “satan entered into him” is used…is that a spirit outside man or is it meaning that man enters into the desires that are against God & yields himself to them? in the case of judas, Jesus said he was a devil & not that the devil was “in” him

one place says that satan entered into him but satan in that case was a conspiracy against Jesus for 30 pieces of silver…Jesus said “woe” was to Judas for his betrayal, so in the case of Judas it was conspiracy & betrayal that was used to work as adversary of Jesus…judas probably thought since Jesus was Messiah that even though he sold him out that they wouldnt be able to take Jesus “by force”

that was a shock to all the disciples as they saw Jesus walk through multitudes that would have killed Jesus & Jesus was always able to avoid being hurt or attacked…i'm sure they thought a man who walks on water & speaks to trees to produce no more fruit & the tree dies, feed multitudes, & all the miraculous ability that Jesus had over nature would not suffer at the hands of evil men seeking to kill him…they saw him raise the dead so surely they thought nothing ever could hurt him…

they saw him transfigured & wanted to make him a temple of his own so they could worship him (they wanted to worship moses & elias too, and it was an abomination for any jew to worship any man as deity)…they were so glorified that they didnt think any man could approach such glory without being deity…but while they yet spoke, God spoke from heaven & told them that Jesus was His beloved son & they must hear what he says

no wonder they thought they would conqueor the world & rule with Jesus…they savored the things that be of men that were ignorant of God & His ways & acted as adversary of God in many ways & often

many times Jesus said “O ye of little faith” & “where is your faith?” meaning they forgot that YVAH is deity alone…Jesus had to continually remind them that the works that he did were done by the father as he obeyed…they just didnt get it because they savored the things that be of men & thier understanding was darkened

[DORA]

very true, whatistrue…amen

[DORA]

LET ME ADD THAT IF SATAN WAS LUCIFER, A HOLY ANGEL OF GOD BEFORE HE WAS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN, THAT WOULD CONTRIDICT JESUS' WORDS THAT HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING..A HOLY ANGEL OF GOD IS NOT A MURDERER & BEING AN ANGEL 1ST & THEN BEING CHANGED IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH BEING A MURDERER IN ORIGIN OR IN THE BEGINNING

[DORA]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 12 2005,18:26)

Dora, I think Satan was a murderer from the begining because be facilitated the seperation between man and God. Because of his temptation, sin entered and death became a reality. Adam died but his death was attributed to satans medeling. Thats my reading of it, and i think its a commonly held one. Nick, Could you please answer my questions about John 14:14 and I Cor 2.

SORRY, I SEE THAT YOU WERE ASKING NICK…OOPS

YES, THE BELIEF THAT SATAN WAS THE REASON FOR THE FALL IS COMMONLY HELD BUT NOT BASED ON SCRIPTURE IF RIGHTLY DIVIDED…MOST TEACH THAT SATAN BECAME WHO HE IS BY BEING CAST OUT OF HEAVEN WHERE HE WAS GOD'S HIGHEST ANGEL & THAT ISNT SCRIPTURAL EITHER, BUT IT IS TAUGHT AS TRUTH

[DORA]

LET ME ADD THAT MAN-MADE RELIGION IS A FORM OF OCCULT BECAUSE IT SLANDERS GOD, WHICH IS THE DEFIITION OF THE WORD DEVIL…EARTHLY, SENSUAL & DEVILISH IDEAS ARE THE RESULT OF MAN'S WISDOM & THEY ARE ADVERSARIAL TO TRUTH, WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD SATAN

RELIGIOUS SPIRITS ARE WHAT KILLED MESSIAH & THEY ARE KIN TO WITCHCRAFT & IDOLOTRY

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2005,01:47)

Hi Dora, You strongly imply that anyone who does not agree with you is ignorant and has not studied enough. But your derivations oppose the teachings of Peter, Paul, James, John and Yeshua himself. Are you saying you are greater than them too? Man was man as a body formed from dust according to Gen 2.7 God then breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living being-not a soul. Rev 20.2″ And he laid hold of the DRAGON the SERPENT OF OLD, who is the DEVIL and SATAN and bound him for 1000yrs.” 2Jn .9″ Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”

JUST FOUND THIS POST…DONT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE WITH ME IS IGNORANT OR NOT STUDIED ENOUGH…WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT MAYBE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHAT ONE'S PRECONCIEVED KNOWLEDGE IS CAN BE BLINDING

YOU PRESUPPOSE THAT I DEVIATE WITHOUT KNOW WHAT OR WHY I BELEIVE AS I DO

THE SCRIPTS SAY THAT ADAM “BECAME” A LIVING SOUL OR SPIRIT MAN…HE BECAME A LIVING SOUL AFTER HIS BODY WAS FORMED & GOD BREATHED THE BREATH OF LIFE (SPIRIT) INTO HIM…THAT'S WHAT'S WRITTEN

THE DRAGON & SERPENT IS NOT SATAN…THEY ARE SYMBOLIC OF WITCHCRAFT & IDOLOTRY, THE OCCULT IN ALL VARIATIONS…THE DRAGON IS THAT OLD SERPENT FROM EDEN & SERPENT MEANS “TO WHISPER ENCHANTMENT”…ENCHANTMENT IS WIZARDRY, SORCERY, OCCULT KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE & IS THE PRODUCT OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT LIFTING ITSELF UP AS GOD IN ANY SUBTLE MANNER

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2005,18:43)

Hi liljon, Yes God was alone responsible for all creation. But it was done through the Son. Jn 1.3,Heb 1.2etc. This too is scripture.

YOU SAY GOD USED JESUS AS AN AGENT IN CREATION & USE HEB 1:2 AS SCRIPT TO VERIFY THAT BELIEF…HEB 1:2 SAYS THAT JESUS IS THE HIER OF CREATION…WHEN DID HE BECOME THE HIER?

I BELIEVE YOU WILL FIND THAT TO BE AN HIER IS TO INHERIT & THIS REFERS TO PREDESTINATION RATHER THAN PRE EXISTANCE…YVAH IS THE ONLY CREATOR & HE WAS ALONE BUT HE PREDESTINED THE SON BEFORE ALL THINGS

THIS DOESNT MEAN THE SON WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING…IT MEANS HE WAS THE PURPOSE FOR CREATION…THAT PURPOSE WAS SPOKEN BY GOD ON DAY ONE OF CREATION, “LET THERE BE LIGHT”…THE LIGHT IS THE SON, BUT THAT ISNT WHEN THE SON WAS BEGOTTEN

HE WAS BEGOTTEN WHEN MARY CONCIEVED…THE LIGHT (LOGOS, WORD) WAS MADE FLESH…THE SON IS THE SEED OF THE WOMAN….GOD BROUGHT WOMAN OUT OF MAN & THEN BROUGHT HIS SON OUT OF WOMAN…THE SON WAS A FLESH BODY & NOT A TENT THAT HOUSED GOD…NOT EVEN THE HEAVENS CAN CONTAIN GOD & HE CANNOT BE CONTAINED IN FLESH

THE WORD CLEARLY TELLS US THAT GOD IS NOT FLESH & THEREFORE FLESH CANNOT BE OR BECOME GOD…THE FATHER IS DEITY ALONE & ALWAYS WILL BE

BLESSINGS & PEACE IN THE NAME OF YAHSHUA

[DORA]

WHERE IS THE DISCUSSION ON LOGOS & BABYLON?

[DORA]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 12 2005,18:26)

Dora, I think Satan was a murderer from the begining because be facilitated the seperation between man and God. Because of his temptation, sin entered and death became a reality. Adam died but his death was attributed to satans medeling. Thats my reading of it, and i think its a commonly held one. Nick, Could you please answer my questions about John 14:14 and I Cor 2.

SORRY, DONT THINK I GOT ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT JOHN 14 OR 1COR 2…NOT VERY GOOD ABOUT NAVEGATING ON THE FORUM…NEW TO ME

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION

[DORA]

question: Jesus said that satan was a murderer from the beginning…if he was a murderer that seems to indicate a state of being that wasnt changed…in other words, it is taught that satan was an high holy cherub using (isah 14:12) & (ezek 28)…others say he was an archangel, which is another class of angel…in (isa 14) lucifer is said to be satan before he rebelled also, but the prophesy is about a man (vs 16)…i have been studying & praying for understanding for 38 yrs & have heard these things explained in many ways…what do you say about this?

[DORA]

Adam pastor, i very much like what you have to say & i agree

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2005,11:43)

Hi Dora, I will read your posts fully as I always do.But I would like to make some points. This forum is most effective when it is used for the direct exposition of scripture with backup scriptures as further evidence. We all share the same bible and other versions often add light. When teachers use derived or denominational doctrines then it can cause confusion. We do not all share the same basis of belief and so it tends to divide. Emphasis on interpretation rather than truth itself has the same effect as we often reach different conclusions initially on a verse or a word. Allegory and synonym are tools of this type. Scripture will, however, interpret itself if we allow it and patiently search. Human wisdom is deceptive. That is why Jesus thanked the Father for revealing to the merest children what he witheld from the wise and clever. As Paul said 'For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom” And James ” But the wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure; then peace loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere” At first glance[no offence] your teachings and spiritual constructs seem to me to be a little intellectual and abstract and at times perhaps bizarre? I prefer simple clear bible revelation. Where do you get your concept of spirit+body = soul from in the bible for example?? Anyone whose logic can define the dangerous spiritual being called Satan out of existence will always raise my eyebrows.

I respect your criticism & admonishion, Nick, & this is your site…of course I will honor your requests & opinions…I dont wish to be an instrument of division…I have just come here to share “my part” in the body…it may not be the same as another but we are all one body & members in particular

i dont blame you for being leary of what i say about “satan” & the theory of him being a fallen angel, but i'm sorry, i cant agree with something that is not sound scripturally no matter how it may appear to be revealed by certain verses that are misunderstood…however, i certainly will not insist on viewing what i see in this respect if it it disturbs you

anything i say can be backed with scripture, but i agree is isnt the established doctrines that say Jesus is deity incarnate & satan is a fallen angel because that is not sound based on scripture theme or content…if you find that bazaar it is because you have not researched it to see if it be true…you have judged it according to what you believe

what i find in scripture is gleaned with prayer & fasting & waiting on God & not logic, but if that is what you see i respect your opinion

i will answer your question about the soul>>the main example we have is Adam…Adam's body was formed 1st & then God breathed into him the breath of life, ie, spirit, & he became a living soul…the body is dead without the spirit, but the spirit lives without the body…i glean from all scripture combined that the soul is the result of the body & spirit as a whole…for instance, if we were not born we would not have a body or a spirit & there would be no expression of such, which is the soul

why do you disagree?

[DORA]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:24)

Hi Dora, You do not have the right to change scripture. Scripture reveals that Satan tested the Son of God in the desert. To allegorise Satan is to change scripture. It is to take away from scripture. I am sure you know there are dire warnings for those who add or take away from the Word of God. Hebrews 1 tells us he had godly nature, and he was made for a little while less than the angels. So he was greater than the angels. When was that? Before he assumed our humble human estate. Phil 2 tells us the Son of God “made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant being made in human likeness” So he was of godly nature but shed that to become a servant and was made in human likeness. That is the order of events revealed by Scripture. It does not say he was born a man, then humbled himself and became a servant. Why do people denigrate the Son of God and make him only Son of Man? Surely you fear God?

i simply disagree, nick, but nothing i said changes scripture & nothing has been allegorised…it is there if you look but if you cant see maybe you should seek before you contradict…no matter what either of us believes the truth will stand

son of man does not just mean to be human, which Jesus was, but it means to be ruler among men…when Jesus spoke of himself as son of man he was saying he was Messiah, ruler among men, & ruler of rulers

if Jesus did not have flesh appetites he would not need to eat or sleep, but we know he did…flesh appetites are lusts…Jesus had flesh appetites that he did not let rule him, but he was tempted as we are…to be tempted is to drawn by our own lusts…Jesus was indeed tempted as we are yet without sin

how Jesus became a servant was by not exercising his God given authority to rule as Messiah…that is what happened in the wilderness temptation…he was taken upon a pinnacle & tempted to rule all the kingdoms of the world because they were divinely his right to do so as Messiah, but if he did it would have caused him to deny worship & obedience to God's will, which was not to rule, but to serve…to serve God & not man

Jesus never served man…he demonstrated his love to men & it was percieved as service or servility…he only did the will of God & he only served that will

he said, “greater love has NO MAN than that he lay his life down for a friend”…this is what he did…he surrendered his right to rule by dominion & force (which he would have had to do because of adversity) for the purpose of purchasing his inheritance (all things created, including the souls of men) with his own body so we could become bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh

from what you have already said, surely you will not hear me now, but i leave it with you to judge

blessings to you

[Author]

Posts