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[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,17:35) There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understnad “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?” Hi Paladin, I truly do understand the point you are making.  It is the same point Marty and Gene have been making for years here.  And I could even agree with your point if not for some very clear scriptures. Consider this:  The sons of God shouted for joy at the founding of the earth, right?  Now we only know the names of two of the myriads upon myriads of them, and we don't know of any particular activity that any one of them participated in before the founding of the earth, right?  But by your logic, we could assert that not one of them pre-existed the founding of the earth, because we don't know of any of their activities prior to this time.  Does this sound sensible to you?  Because that's exactly what you're doing with Jesus.  You are saying that just because YOU don't know of a particular activity he performed before he was human means that he didn't exist before he was human. But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.  And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.  And John 6 says he came down from heaven and would ascend to where he WAS BEFORE – and then he did that.  Proverbs 30:4 speaks of God's son as an already existing entity way before John speaks of the Word, through whom all things were created, BECOMING flesh and having the glory of the only begotten from the Father.  Proverbs 8 says he was the master craftsman at God's side.  Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn of ALL creation, and in Rev 3:14, Jesus himself says he was the BEGINNING of the creation by God.  Hebrews 2:6 tells of God AGAIN bringing His firstborn INTO THE WORLD, suggesting God had previously brought His firstborn INTO THE WORLD.  Heb 1:2 speaks of the AGES, (as in more than one age) being created through him. I could go on an on, but the references to Jesus' pre-existent activities are right there in the scriptures if you care to believe. And look at the way you guys try to change these scripture.  You say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had as “a thought in God's head”.  That would be like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to the glory he had as a wooden puppet.   And your alternate explanations to the other 50 scriptures we've put together are similarly weak and far reaching. Paladin, it wouldn't matter one bit to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed, but I must go with what the scriptures teach.  You guys, on the other hand, seem to be willing to go to great and nonsensical lengths to make the Bible somehow teach what you've already decided in your own minds that it should teach.  You are trying to make the Bible teach what you want it to instead of letting it teach what God actually wrote. peace, mike

Good post mike… And I agree….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Shimmer!  I read your post and want to respond to what you  said about the Law.  The only thing that Jesus fulfilled was the Sacrificial Law.  He is the perfect Scarifies, no other Animal Scarifies needed..  
The Law and the prophets are also in the New Covenant under Jesus blood.   Some think that the Sabbath is to be kept.  It was never a commandment to us.  It was a Covenant and sign between God and the Children of Israel…
Exd 31:16   Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.  

Exd 31:17   It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.  

Paul tells us that we can keep any day to the LORD.  or every day to the LORD…

Rom 14:5   One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  
Rom 14:6   He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  

Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ May 08 2011,23:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2011,07:40) Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,15:35) Please give me the reference where “the best Greek Scholar of the day” said any such thing as you put in your post. Paladin Every thing I posted in my thread was directly from Strongs. You are misleading and I will show you how. WJ Strong's Dictionary? Strong's Concordance? What?

Paladin! There is a Greek and Hebrew Strong's Dictionary.  We have one also….. One can look up any word in any of those languages.
Real need……Peace Irene

[Baker]

Charles, You didn't write anything I don't know already….But I stand on what I said, there are not seven Spirits of God. There is ONE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD> Scripture in Ephesian 4 says so….

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. How does that prove God alters things? It doesn't….In fact it says the opposite…..

The way Almighty God and jesus is in us is by Gods Holy Spirit. There is a Spirit in man too. I was not talking about those Soirits, I was talking about Gods Holy Spirit…. And there is only one… not seven…

So you say that because Jesus has Gods Holy Sopirit in Him, He is Almighty God? Is that what you are saying?
So since we have Gods Holy Spirit in us, we also are Almighty God? Not so…..

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.

Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.

Are you out of your mind, that God Almighty is below Jesus??No way… I just gave Scriptures that prove otherwise….Also

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus did not go to Heaven as a flesh Spirit being. Thats it, heard enough…..You my friend need to study the Bible more.,…

Peace Irene

…

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,20:58)

Quote (Baker @ May 07 2011,08:02) Marty and Kerwin!   I read tyour posts, and in no way is anything settled. just because someone comes and says He knows Greek, doesn't make it so.  you both can check out on the internet to the Blue Letter Bible and it will tell you the Greek or the Hebrew.  And I did so.  It is not what Paladin is saying…..I also caught Him in a contradiction of Scriptures.  since that is the case, I will not believe what He says….The 50 Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus is real, to deny it is not of God….Period Peace Irene Care to put on the board all this misinformation you are finding in my post?

Why should I, you don't believe it anyway…. Irene

[Baker]

Charles! No, No, No, No Jesus was created in Gods image, but does not have 7 Spirits of God. There is only ONE Holy Spirit that dwells in all of us….
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Gods Holy Spirit is perfect, 7 is the number for being perfect. That does not mean that God has seven Spirits. Do you have those seven Spirits in you? I hope not. What you need to be careful about that a Demonic spirit doesn't enter into you…..Satan is considered the God of this world. he was a beautiful Angel of light…..And he portrays himself as one at times, so we have to put on the whole Armor of God. You do know what that is I hope…
.Yes, all power is given to Jesus. But what does that mean to you, that now Jesus is Almighty God??? I don't think so….And the Father does not alter anything. The Son, Jesus when all things are made subject to Him, will give the Kingdom back to God.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Guest @ April 30 2011,06:58)

Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,03:45) Quote (Istari @ April 26 2011,19:19) Irene, Positive union between us on that. By the way, Omnipotent means 'All Powerful' OmniPresent means 'Everywhere' (All Present) Omniscient means 'All Knowing' True!   But Jesus could not be everywhere, could He?  Not that I know of….And that is what Charles was saying….I know also that God has giving Jesus power, but that does not mean now He is Omnipotent.   Peace Irene Baker, I know also that God has giving Jesus power, but that does not mean now He is Omnipotent.   John:3:34 .. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, God gives the Spirit without measure. Notice:No Father is mentioned,Just God only Jesus introduced and,mentioned the Father.They were not aware of the trinity. Matthew 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit The angels were aware  that God is triune,but they were not aware of their function.They were aware through the first three archangels Michael the most powerful,represents the Father,Lucifer wisdom,represented the Son,and Gabriel the messenger.represents the Holy Spirit. Jesus was never created, He was the word of God still within the Father when He created the Spiritual creatures, The is the first period of God's Kingdom which is associated directly to the Father through His pronunciation of the word who is his Son within Him.The second period of God's kingdom was associated directly to the Son,since He was sacrificed as spiritual dust to create our world completely hidden  in order to produce the vital and sinless flesh of Mary as His mother. Now we are in the last period of God's Kingdom which is associated  directly to the Holy Spirit,but when we reflect the three kingdoms were all somehow totally dependable in all three persons.A perfect demonstration of a loving God through Charity,while if He was a single person it wasn't possible,it would be more egoistic.When we reflect on the Gospel this triune function is consistent,and also there is an evidence of a dialogue between the Father and the Son in order to give proof to humility, obedience, and love three fundamental pillars which were the key role for our salvation,to proof that God's omnipotent power is in them not in  physical  violence.That Job was for Satan. Murderer Peace and love Charles

Charles!
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus is the beginning of all creation. Then God through Him created all.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And the Word became flesh in verse 14. If you have any doubt that the Word of God is who became Jesus, look at these Scriptures..
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

God, the Word of God, LORD, Lord, King are all titles….

You say that you are foreign born, where from? We are from Germany….over 50 years ago…..Peace Irene

[Baker]

OK Marty, and that Word became flesh…..verse 14……Then John tells us in

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

He came from Heaven, and He will come again as the Word of God and King of Kings…..Rev. 19

funny He is the Word in Rev. 19, but not in John 1, even though it says in verse 14 that He became flesh….. it all fits….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Marty! You say that in Rev. 19 it is Jesus, but not in John 1:1-14 its not? Is that what you are saying???
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

notice what it says ” the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth….Who is it that became flesh, if not Jesus….???

What I can't understand is that you say it is Jesus in Rev.19 but not in John 1….why???
Not my assumption, but Scripture…..what you are doing is adding, what it doesn't say at all….

The only thing we agree on is that Jesus is Emmanuel….

Peace Irene

[Baker]

Marty and Kerwin! I read tyour posts, and in no way is anything settled. just because someone comes and says He knows Greek, doesn't make it so. you both can check out on the internet to the Blue Letter Bible and it will tell you the Greek or the Hebrew. And I did so. It is not what Paladin is saying…..I also caught Him in a contradiction of Scriptures. since that is the case, I will not believe what He says….The 50 Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus is real, to deny it is not of God….Period
Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,02:42)

Quote (Baker @ May 04 2011,17:04) Keith!  No, I worship Jehovah God and honor Jesus who is my Savior…. I go through Jesus to go to the Throne of God and ask Jehovah God for the forgiveness of my sins.  Is that good enough for you? Peace Irene Irene Then you should stop calling Jesus “a god”, right? WJ

Keith! I only pointed out that in Hebrew it says that Jesus is called God, but not Jehovah God. Again, God is a title. Example President, King, Governor, Lord, LORD, got the picture? Even Satan is called God of this world….
Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2011,14:16)

To me it seemed like a whole bunch of words that in the end, still didn't give a different meaning to “I came down from heaven” than the only obvious one. Paladin,  we don't need a lesson in the Greek language…………unless there is something in your post that makes “I came down from heaven” mean something other than “I came down from heaven”.  The Jews Jesus said this to seemed to understand that he was saying he came down from heaven…………..why don't you? mike

Mike! I agree with you. All I see in His post was a bunch of words, that did not clarify anything else. Shimmer puts it this way,
“Simplifies, the Son of God came down from Heaven.” You said before a Child can understand it. So why can't Paladin and others??? Georg, “God has blinded their eyes to it.”….
Peace Irene

[Baker]

THE EXODUS SONG

This land is mine, God gave this land to me,
This brave and ancient land to me, and when the morning sun,
Reveals its hills and plains,
Then I see land where children run free.

So take my hand and walk this land with me, and walk this lovely land with me.
Tho I am just a man, when you are by my side,
With the help of God I can be strong.

So take my hand and walk this land with me, and walk this golden land with me,
Tho i am just a man, when you are by my side
With the help of God I know I can be strong

To make this land our Home, if I must fight, I make this land our own,
I must die, this land is mine!!!

Peace and Love Irene

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2011,13:06)

Paladin Quote There are at least 33 Greek words that are translated “come” in one form or another, and nearly sixty compound meanings formed by other Greek words.[anabainw;aperxomai;apobainw;ginomai;deuro;deute;dierxomai;einai;eiserxomai;ektoreuo mai;enisteemi;ezerxomai;eperxomai;epibainw;epiporeuomai;erxomai;esomai;esti;ephisteemi;eek w;katantaw;katerxomai;paraginomai;pareimi;parerxomai;paristeemi;proserxomai;sunerxomai;phe rw;phthavw;xwrew;wn; plus many compound forms translated “come” in one context or another. And none of them are translated “I have come.” My copy of Strong's concordance shows under #2597 – katabainw – to descend (lit. or fig.) – come (get, go, step) down, descend, fall (down). [NOTE: in those instances in which “w” is printed in Greek words, it isa interlinear form of the Greek letter omega; many folks put in its place a letter omicron (o) with a dash over the top, but I haven't figured out my keybord well enough to try putting 'o' with a – on top. Anyway, Strong's # and definition is not too big a deal, because there are so many editions, some with corrections, some with abbreviated information, I do not make it a test of fellowship over a Strong's definition. I just posted it becasue it is different from what you posted. I am not even saying you are wrong on this, only that my copy of Strong's says otherwise. “Katabaino” actually means to come down (like descending a staircase) or fall down. If you type into bible program's word processor “I have come” you will not get “katabaino” as a preferred Greek source. You will get “erxomai.” So it is a little misleading to say “The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's “katabaino.” this explanation above ,is for the least not clear,it seems you go one way to come back with the same thing but in your own words,and have not moved a inch. you explanation is as clear as mud. Pierre

Thanks Pierre, you made me laugh, clear as mud is about right….
Its seems He knows better then the Translators do….
Peace Irene  

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2011,12:02)

Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2011,15:05) Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,13:11) So Kerwin, do you believe so many will go to Heaven and so many will be on a paradise earth (after the resurection)? I do not believe such a tenet. I am prone to believe we will be like angels and able to travel between the different realms of God.   I cannot say that either belief is anything but speculation as as far as I know scripture remains silent on that issue. edited to correct mistypes and dropped words. karmarie, I have to add on to what I wrote.  Enoch went to the heavenly realms as did Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.  Of those Enoch and Moses have been recorded as returning to earth briefly and Jesus return is foretold. There is also a record of saints that were resurrected when Jesus died but what occurred to them afterwords is not recorded.

Kerwin! Were is your Scripture to prove what you believe? Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 01 2011,21:21)

Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,23:22) I like to add this, Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.   Mal 4:2   But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.   Mal 4:3   And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.   When it says a New Earth, and a New Heaven, Georg believes New Earth is a metaphor for New Government.  Heaven to mean a New Place of Worship..New Temple….. There is also a Scripture that says this Earth is reserved for the destruction of the wicked, which goes alone with Mal. Peace Irene Hear what the spirit says: Approx. 450years before Jesus! ….the day{light,holy ghost & fire}cometh,that shall burn as an oven{fire}; and the proud{know it all religious hierarchy} and all that do wickedly{works for righteousness} shall be stubble; and the day{fire light} that cometh shall burn the religious/Jews up and leave neither root nor branch. BUT….unto you that fear my name shall the Sun{Jesus, the light of righteousness} arise with healing in his wings{arms,hands}and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall{new born again children of God} and ye{us, those who accept Jesus} shall tread down the wicked{those doing works for righteousness}; for they shall be ashes{after being burned by spirit fire} under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this; V5: Behold, I will send you Elijah{John the Baptist according to Jesus}just before the coming of the great{for believers} and dreadful{those working the law} day of the lord… Hear what the spirit says. See the picture painted by spirit for understanding when the day would come. Those at the time of Malachi would not see the day come some 450 years later. The prophet were all speaking of the day of the lord when Jesus would arise, baptizing with the holy spirit and fire. John and Jesus the two great prophets. John was the one that was beheaded or cut off. Jesus arose for 3&1/2 years and was cut off. Hear the prophets. They all prophesied of the day of Jesus to come. All prophecy is fulfilled, completed, fininshed. It is finished as Jesus said. Now is the time to rise up into what Jesus has created us to be. IMO, TK

Tim. I have no idea what you aere trying to say. You give no Scripture…. Prove all things….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (shimmer @ May 06 2011,12:01)

Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2011,12:48) Quote (shimmer @ May 06 2011,04:45) Kerwin, Gene and Marty, Thankyou for your views. Certainly many opinions on this site regarding this. What is your view on the issue? Kerwin, Going back a few years, I had my mind made up on what everything meant, so there was no issue for me. I believed that the son of God came down from Heaven and then went back to Heaven. After much study I had moved on to prophecy and what was happening in the world. I had a clear understanding with regards to the world today. The past year or so though, has been quite confusing for me, reading all of the opinions here and on other forums has had me thinking more about Jesus Theology than Prophecy and the world. I felt better knowing what I believed years ago. So what did I believe earlier? As it says Jesus was in heaven as a spirit son of God then came down and was born as man through the virgin Mary.

Shimmer! i applaud you, the Holy Spirit of God has shown you well. Praise to our LORD Almighty Jehovah God….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Marty!
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Does this say in the beginning was the Word? And the Word was God?

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And the Word was made flesh.

Before Jesus came down from Heaven, He was called the Word and God.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

And His name is called the Word of God. Just like you are called Marty. When I write Marty. do I mean Mike? No…. The reason God called the Word of God Jesus when He became flesh, is because of what Jesus means, Emmanuel God with us.
And the Word of God in Rev. is the same being then in John 1…..I also believe the reason why He is called the Word of God, because when the Bible states God said, it is Jesus the Word of God. Mr. Armstrong puts it this way. He is the Spoken Word of God, or the Spokesman of God….

Peace Irene

[Baker]

Marty! Believing that Jesus was with His Father before all of creation, is not robing God Almighty of His glory. I also find it wrong to associate those that believe in the preexisting of Jesus with the trinitarian,. We believe that Jesus had a beginning, they believe He always existed. Calling material to a Human being is much different. But if I call a Ship a bird, is that Ship then not a Ship? Or if my husband calls me Honey, am not then His wife? Maybe you need to think a little deeper. It doesn't matter if I call someone by a particular word, it is still that someone.,…..Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,13:10)

Correction:  Our constitution states that no man PERSON can be President unless he/SHE was born on U.S. soil……… Sorry for the sexist slight.  It was merely a matter of habit and purely unintentional.   mike

Mike!

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

I for one would never vote for a woman….Peace Irene

[Author]

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