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Quote (Stu @ Mar. 02 2011,18:19) Once again you miss the point entirely. Abortion is not an atheist ritual, it is a legal medical procedure. You are welcome to write to the politicians and express your opposition but you better have your ethical argument sorted out first, because they have. If it is OK to perform an abortion to save the life of a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy which will otherwise kill her, why is any abortion wrong.
If it is OK to allow ectopic pregnancies to kill women, then I think you do not even deserve a reply from your representative.
Stuart
Stuart,either your for natural selection or your not, your comment is double minded.
or you are just using the example for a crutch to validate your belief in abortion, due to you have nothing else to stand on.
so to take life to save a life, is that not a basis of mass murders, take the life to save a life. so if you are fine with abortion then you should be fine with mass murders, the only difference is one at a time, to many at a time.
i have come to understand that science minded people like yourself must keep on the fence of matters that concern humanity, nice and cozy place. you don't have to make a decision on the matter, you let statics data speak for you. so universally if you did not have such data you would not be able to think for yourself, kinda like how you tell others about their 'imaginary friend'
how about that?
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 01 2011,15:58) Don't remember you saying that before, but anyway, I've never been mugged in our great atheistic country, or anywhere else for that matter.
New Zealand also has a lot of people that believe in God. More do than don't I think.Anyway, my statement still stands. If you were mugged, I put my money on the mugger not have a deep relationship with God.
Quote (princess @ Mar. 03 2011,21:39) Stuart, either your for natural selection or your not, your comment is double minded.
or you are just using the example for a crutch to validate your belief in abortion, due to you have nothing else to stand on.
so to take life to save a life, is that not a basis of mass murders, take the life to save a life. so if you are fine with abortion then you should be fine with mass murders, the only difference is one at a time, to many at a time.
i have come to understand that science minded people like yourself must keep on the fence of matters that concern humanity, nice and cozy place. you don't have to make a decision on the matter, you let statics data speak for you. so universally if you did not have such data you would not be able to think for yourself, kinda like how you tell others about their 'imaginary friend'
how about that?
Nice post.Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2011,19:25) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,18:37) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 02 2011,18:19) Once again you miss the point entirely. Abortion is not an atheist ritual, it is a legal medical procedure. You are welcome to write to the politicians and express your opposition but you better have your ethical argument sorted out first, because they have. If it is OK to perform an abortion to save the life of a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy which will otherwise kill her, why is any abortion wrong.
If it is OK to allow ectopic pregnancies to kill women, then I think you do not even deserve a reply from your representative.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have
fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?non-believers vs. believers
And they shed innocent blood, even
the blood of their sons and of their daughters
…and the land was polluted with blood. (Psalm 106:38)Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hosea 9:16
Hosea 13:16
Genesis 38:24Stuart
Hi Stuart,Both Hosea 9:16 and Hosea 13:16 refer to what happens in war, not an abortion clinic.
And nothing happened to the child in Genesis 38:24?
Try again!
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (princess @ Mar. 03 2011,21:39) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 02 2011,18:19) Once again you miss the point entirely. Abortion is not an atheist ritual, it is a legal medical procedure. You are welcome to write to the politicians and express your opposition but you better have your ethical argument sorted out first, because they have. If it is OK to perform an abortion to save the life of a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy which will otherwise kill her, why is any abortion wrong.
If it is OK to allow ectopic pregnancies to kill women, then I think you do not even deserve a reply from your representative.
Stuart
Stuart,either your for natural selection or your not, your comment is double minded.
or you are just using the example for a crutch to validate your belief in abortion, due to you have nothing else to stand on.
so to take life to save a life, is that not a basis of mass murders, take the life to save a life. so if you are fine with abortion then you should be fine with mass murders, the only difference is one at a time, to many at a time.
i have come to understand that science minded people like yourself must keep on the fence of matters that concern humanity, nice and cozy place. you don't have to make a decision on the matter, you let statics data speak for you. so universally if you did not have such data you would not be able to think for yourself, kinda like how you tell others about their 'imaginary friend'
how about that?
How can you be “for” natural selection?Are you “for” gravity?
My position regarding abortion is what I think is right, and I promise you I have thought about it a great deal.
How is mass murder about “take a life to save a life”? How is abortion about murder?
Why would I have to “keep on the fence” on any subject? Do you not think I am human? It is not about letting statistics speak for you, it is about presenting the evidence for the truth claims on which you build an argument.
You claim there is a god in which you believe, yet you provide no unambiguous evidence for it.
You might claim that the god is against abortion. The scriptural evidence is against that claim, and actually the bible discusses situations in which god induces abortions, but even if you could establish that then you have an ethical argument still to make that it is the right thing to do to follow what this god says.
The more I hear christians whine on about abortion the more I think they have nothing intelligent to say on the subject. Perhaps not all of them!
Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 04 2011,11:10) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 03 2011,19:25) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 02 2011,18:37) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 02 2011,18:19) Once again you miss the point entirely. Abortion is not an atheist ritual, it is a legal medical procedure. You are welcome to write to the politicians and express your opposition but you better have your ethical argument sorted out first, because they have. If it is OK to perform an abortion to save the life of a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy which will otherwise kill her, why is any abortion wrong.
If it is OK to allow ectopic pregnancies to kill women, then I think you do not even deserve a reply from your representative.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have
fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?non-believers vs. believers
And they shed innocent blood, even
the blood of their sons and of their daughters
…and the land was polluted with blood. (Psalm 106:38)Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hosea 9:16
Hosea 13:16
Genesis 38:24Stuart
Hi Stuart,Both Hosea 9:16 and Hosea 13:16 refer to what happens in war, not an abortion clinic.
And nothing happened to the child in Genesis 38:24?
Try again!
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
So it's god's will during war.That makes it all right then.
Have you stopped for any time to consider whether this is actually nonsense?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2011,09:10) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 01 2011,15:58) Don't remember you saying that before, but anyway, I've never been mugged in our great atheistic country, or anywhere else for that matter.
New Zealand also has a lot of people that believe in God. More do than don't I think.Anyway, my statement still stands. If you were mugged, I put my money on the mugger not have a deep relationship with God.
So would I.There is no such thing as gods.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 04 2011,14:14) So would I. There is no such thing as gods.
Stuart
You wish.Also, you can't change reality. You can only change your perception of it. Try jumping out of a plane onto a cloud. You can imagine that it is bouncy and soft, but sorry to say, you will hurtle toward the ground.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2011,17:09) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 04 2011,14:14) So would I. There is no such thing as gods.
Stuart
You wish.Also, you can't change reality. You can only change your perception of it. Try jumping out of a plane onto a cloud. You can imagine that it is bouncy and soft, but sorry to say, you will hurtle toward the ground.
And you won't?Stuart
Quote How can you be “for” natural selection?
straining a gnat comment.Quote Are you “for” gravity?
no, Stuart. i am a woman, what woman is for gravity.Quote My position regarding abortion is what I think is right, and I promise you I have thought about it a great deal.
perhaps it is time you go and rethink about the matter, brush up a bit more on the subject.Quote How is mass murder about “take a life to save a life”? How is abortion about murder?
must everything be spelled out for you, try a bit harder perhaps.Quote Why would I have to “keep on the fence” on any subject?
idk, your only stand is against ones that have a god.Quote Do you not think I am human?
you have driven the point home many times that you are of ape descend.Quote It is not about letting statistics speak for you, it is about presenting the evidence for the truth claims on which you build an argument.
perhaps, alas you always go with the majority vote.Quote You claim there is a god in which you believe, yet you provide no unambiguous evidence for it.
what god?Quote You might claim that the god is against abortion. The scriptural evidence is against that claim, and actually the bible discusses situations in which god induces abortions, but even if you could establish that then you have an ethical argument still to make that it is the right thing to do to follow what this god says.
implication on your part, can't do anything to change this. perhaps you will understand some day, however today will most likely not be it.Quote The more I hear christians whine on about abortion the more I think they have nothing intelligent to say on the subject. Perhaps not all of them!
once again, you assume much without evidence, you are no different then the ones you persecute.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2011,18:27) Your belief that God doesn't exist doesn't change anything in reality.
t8Will you fall out of a designed aeroplane, the existence of which demonstrates that it is foolishness to believe the universe came from nothing, and into a cloud thinking that it would be silly of atheists to believe that the cloud could hold them up there?
Count the logical fallacies. They are all yours!
Stuart
PoftheK
Stuu: How can you be “for” natural selection?
Quote straining a gnat comment.
No. Very important. If we are going to have any sensible conversations about origins of the universe or humans or anything relating to science then it is critical that we understand “science” is completely different to holding things on faith. Faith is a personal conviction in something that is probably not founded in any evidence upon which we could all agree. Your faith belongs to you alone. “Science” is not mine! I am not “in favour” of natural selection. It just is a fact that is interesting and tells us what happened in the past. It would be the faith position that has the problem with it, because faith does not appear to respect the facts. If the facts contradict science then science is wrong, and that is no skin off my nose.Do you see why this gnat straining is actually at the centre of our conversations? You are dodging your responsibility to know that which you rant against. Don’t paint me as someone who is trying to convert people to science, it is just not like that. If evolution by natural selection is wrong, then that’s fine by me. But it would be evidence that demonstrated that, and no such evidence exists, and all the evidence we do have is consistent with the fact of evolution explained by the theory of natural selection.
Quote perhaps it is time you go and rethink about the matter, brush up a bit more on the subject. must everything be spelled out for you, try a bit harder perhaps.
implication on your part, can't do anything to change this. perhaps you will understand some day, however today will most likely not be it.
once again, you assume much without evidence, you are no different then the ones you persecute.
So you have nothing to say regarding abortion. Shame, because I feel I can learn when people put up really good challenges against what I believe. Do you have any such challenges? Do you have any ethical thinking to share, or is it the usual sentimentality, platitudes and squeamishness that most christians express, which does not really address the question of what is the right thing to do?Quote idk, your only stand is against ones that have a god.
Demonstrate the god is true with unambiguous evidence or expect your bluff to be called.Quote you have driven the point home many times that you are of ape descend.
Once again, so are you. This is not my fact, it is out shared collective fact. Unless you are not human? We actually ARE African great apes. The other great apes are the chimpanzee, bonobo, gorilla and the orangutan. The orangutan is a South East Asian great ape, but its origins are in Africa like ours are. The fact that we are great apes was determined and defined by a creationist, Carl Linneaus, if that helps you at all.Quote perhaps, alas you always go with the majority vote.
Maybe that is because the majority repect the facts of the matter. The majority of Americans believe in some creation story or other, and I don’t go with them on that.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 05 2011,08:33) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2011,18:27) Your belief that God doesn't exist doesn't change anything in reality.
t8Will you fall out of a designed aeroplane, the existence of which demonstrates that it is foolishness to believe the universe came from nothing, and into a cloud thinking that it would be silly of atheists to believe that the cloud could hold them up there?
Count the logical fallacies. They are all yours!
Stuart
From your reply, I can see that you are not able to work my point. If you work it out, then I am happy to continue the dialog.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 05 2011,10:47) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 05 2011,08:33) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2011,18:27) Your belief that God doesn't exist doesn't change anything in reality.
t8Will you fall out of a designed aeroplane, the existence of which demonstrates that it is foolishness to believe the universe came from nothing, and into a cloud thinking that it would be silly of atheists to believe that the cloud could hold them up there?
Count the logical fallacies. They are all yours!
Stuart
From your reply, I can see that you are not able to work my point. If you work it out, then I am happy to continue the dialog.
I am happy for you not to continue this particular dialogue, so I will not be giving you any indication of my comprehension of it.Stuart
Stuart,
since you cannot understand the spiritual meaning, there is little sense for you to use such to debate your opinion.
I have faith in my son, in many areas of his life.
faith comes in many forms, for you to discredit the whole of the matter is quite saddening on your part.
your are correct faith is mine and mine alone, it is something that no matter what is thrown in the mix, cannot be taken from me. one of the few things that the world cant strip you of.
sensible conversation in regards: origins of the universe. in all honesty, why do i need to know such things, chaos was brought to order, dust to life, evolution. life started somewhere, should i concern myself the reason why or should i concern myself to attend to the life i have.
so in good turn science does not respect faith.you use natural selection as a catch phrase, it is natural for the same sex to mate, majority of facts say no, naturally one that practices such, deals with a selection of diseases that causes death. can we place this subject in 'natural selection' or 'evolution'.
Stuart, the issue of abortion is one that has been discussed between you and i, apparently what i stated did not do much to your way of thinking. however, i find it strange that the very woman who fought for abortion has now stated that she feels otherwise. perhaps you will do the same one day.
'the god particle', 'weighing the soul', 'pascal'. all are facted by science, however, when ones speaks to you in such of a nature, you rebuke the facts and jump on the bible thumping wagon.
what evidence are you asking or need to demostrate there is a god. could anything make you believe. your doubts are what deter any thought on the matter.
Stuart,
Quote since you cannot understand the spiritual meaning, there is little sense for you to use such to debate your opinion.
Spirituality to me is ones sense of ones own place in the universe. Since I have not invented Imaginary Friends and made up grandiose tales of creation, I feel my sense of spirituality is far more honest than a religious believer’s is.Quote I have faith in my son, in many areas of his life.
But that’s just a figure of speech. What you are really saying is you trust things will go well for your son, based on your expectation which in turn is based on the evidence that supports that optimism. If one of my parents expressed dismay that I had not attained the position of principle ballerina with the New Zealand ballet then I would say that would be a faith position: there would be no evidence to indicate that it was a realistic expectation (I promise you it is about the most hopeless expectation anyone could have of me, even if I was the right gender).Quote faith comes in many forms, for you to discredit the whole of the matter is quite saddening on your part. your are correct faith is mine and mine alone, it is something that no matter what is thrown in the mix, cannot be taken from me. one of the few things that the world cant strip you of.
Ironic then that so many god believers allow their faith position to be the route to their loss of dignity, which is something I think is a greater possession to defend.I think of faith as a last resort for the desperate. It is where you go when you have run out of options, and I have been convinced that it is often when people are at rock bottom that they turn to faith, in fact several christians have convinced me that this has been the case for them. Perhaps that is because if you do not have evidence against which to compare your beliefs then there is no possibility of them hurting you. But then the drunk man is happy, too.
As for the faith part of this, I do not respect those who claim it is a virtue to believe things on the basis of no evidence. For me that is a negation of the essence of being human. But then I suppose your god is no respecter of persons. And yet it requires respect??
Quote sensible conversation in regards: origins of the universe. in all honesty, why do i need to know such things, chaos was brought to order, dust to life, evolution. life started somewhere, should i concern myself the reason why or should i concern myself to attend to the life i have.
It is not compulsory, and if it does not really interest you then no one should foist it on you. However if you are going to make claims of creation then you really are committing yourself to the conversation.Quote so in good turn science does not respect faith.
And nor should it. It is the antithesis of science. The difference is that science has demonstrated itself overwhelmingly successful. Faith, in of itself, never has. It does claim placebo effects, but so do sugar pills.Quote you use natural selection as a catch phrase, it is natural for the same sex to mate, majority of facts say no, naturally one that practices such, deals with a selection of diseases that causes death. can we place this subject in 'natural selection' or 'evolution'.
There is no species that we have observed copulating that has not also shown homosexual behaviour. If that is any guide to form then it is homophobia that would appear to be the unnatural position. Of course it may be that feeling revulsion at the idea of homosexuality is natural too. It really depends on what you mean by natural. It is all produced by natural selection. It could be that homosexuality is an unavoidable byproduct of the expression of advantageous genes. If so, then it hardly seems fair to persecute gay people. Perhaps I could take the same approach in regards to those who are religiously devout: it looks like that is genetic too. Of course you can be religious without filling your head entirely with completely ridiculous ideas. It would be possible to have the genetically-induced sense of the numinous without thinking it meant a man walked again after being executed by the Romans.Quote Stuart, the issue of abortion is one that has been discussed between you and i, apparently what i stated did not do much to your way of thinking. however, i find it strange that the very woman who fought for abortion has now stated that she feels otherwise. perhaps you will do the same one day.
That is possible, of course. But I don’t see how the “rights” of a foetus that is incapable of independent life will ever trump the right to medical consent of a fully independently living adult. If an abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is OK, then why isn’t any abortion OK?Quote 'the god particle', 'weighing the soul', 'pascal'. all are facted by science,
None of them are.Quote however, when ones speaks to you in such of a nature, you rebuke the facts and jump on the bible thumping wagon.
I rebuke things that are not facts.Quote what evidence are you asking or need to demostrate there is a god. could anything make you believe. your doubts are what deter any thought on the matter.
Indeed they are. And so should yours. If it is SO true, then why is it not OBVIOUSLY true? What kind of games does this god of yours play?Stuart
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