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Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,20:08) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,08:57) I see it is not the spirit of 1917 you wish to invoke, but the spirit of 1317! Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. Iam not interested in repeating history,however,Iam interested in an end to the free lunch and the beginning an era of self relience……the poor will always be with us,it is the lazy I want to stop paying…We need to put an end to political opportunity that affords those who are living off of my labors to continue to vote themselves benefits that I pay for…
If it is only the lazy you are against, then you are looking at such a tiny percentage of the population that it would probably cost more to identify them accurately than would ever be saved by the outcomes of that investigation.Stuart
Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,20:20) Trust in Jesus, trust in God, that all things will happen and are happening for the longterm benefit of those that seek God.
That's not what your constitution says!Stuart
Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,20:20) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,15:00) Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,16:22) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…
I did come from the poor class and the government aided me in paying for the education that allowed my to improve myself so I cannot say their actions do not have successes.On the other hand they often undermine the very things that bring success by pandering to special interests and ignorring the rule that moderation in all things is beneficial.
Kerwin … I was not privledged either….We were not poor ,we just didn't have any money….Government owes folks nothing…. “It is appointed unto the man to labor all his days and to earn his keep by sweat of his brow”…..This government is providing a living to not only the poor but the lazy and dishonest as well….
theodorej,I have to disagree with you as government does owe its citizens in that its underlying duty to God is to secure the God given rights of the people.
If the government choose to be charitable then that is it's choice. My complaint is if that charity becomes excessive then is destroys the very rights is is claiming to secure.
It seems that the governmment of the U.S. encourages bad behavior because it believe such behavior aids the economy. It may be rethinking that idea but change comes slowly as there are always those who resist it. Hopefully it is fast enough to avoid disaster but whatever the case God has planned for it and his plan is righteous.
The poor are no more at fault than any other group since many act in their own interests and not the interests of the whole. That is what happens in a world ruled by sin.
Trust in Jesus, trust in God, that all things will happen and are happening for the longterm benefit of those that seek God.
Kerwin ….. I concur…. my trust is in God, my frustration is the product of a mindset that plagues a large majority of the citizenry of the USA… It is my feeling that this nation is under judgement as we speak and, it will get worse if the hearts and minds of the people do not change….God judges men in the here and after …. He judges nations in the here and now….Quote (Stu @ July 22 2011,16:32) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,20:08) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,08:57) I see it is not the spirit of 1917 you wish to invoke, but the spirit of 1317! Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. Iam not interested in repeating history,however,Iam interested in an end to the free lunch and the beginning an era of self relience……the poor will always be with us,it is the lazy I want to stop paying…We need to put an end to political opportunity that affords those who are living off of my labors to continue to vote themselves benefits that I pay for…
If it is only the lazy you are against, then you are looking at such a tiny percentage of the population that it would probably cost more to identify them accurately than would ever be saved by the outcomes of that investigation.Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. With all due respect, your last statement was assinine …. Do realize that 48 out of every hundred american CITIZENS are getting money from the government…I did not take into account the euro slicks and the illegal immigrints that are feeding off of hard working americans…Quote (theodorej @ July 23 2011,04:31) Quote (Stu @ July 22 2011,16:32) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,20:08) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,08:57) I see it is not the spirit of 1917 you wish to invoke, but the spirit of 1317! Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. Iam not interested in repeating history,however,Iam interested in an end to the free lunch and the beginning an era of self relience……the poor will always be with us,it is the lazy I want to stop paying…We need to put an end to political opportunity that affords those who are living off of my labors to continue to vote themselves benefits that I pay for…
If it is only the lazy you are against, then you are looking at such a tiny percentage of the population that it would probably cost more to identify them accurately than would ever be saved by the outcomes of that investigation.Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. With all due respect, your last statement was assinine …. Do realize that 48 out of every hundred american CITIZENS are getting money from the government…I did not take into account the euro slicks and the illegal immigrints that are feeding off of hard working americans…
So are 48% of Americans LAZY? Or is it they are exploited by those who promote illegal immigration thus widening the wage gap by driving down the cost of labour thus making it impossible for Americans to live in their own country without assistance?It's swings and roundabouts. Either the rich pay for the menial workers through handouts or higher costs of the services they provide. Otherwise you get starvation, food riots and revolution, at the extremes of it.
The tiniest percentage don't want to work to feed themselves and their families. Why chase the illegals who have established themselves and are working hard? That horse has bolted. By all means carry on attempting to select professionals for Green Cards. But treat the good pole-vaulters like the Americans they would like to be. Estimate what it would cost to find and repatriate those who are seriously not contributing. I bet it's not worth it.
Stuart
Quote (theodorej @ July 22 2011,23:25) Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,20:20) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,15:00) Quote (kerwin @ July 21 2011,16:22) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,01:37) Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2011,21:18) Quote (theodorej @ July 19 2011,23:27) Stu …. We have 40 dollar an hour United Auto worker union members retiring after building auto mobiles that fall apart…. We have teachers retiring with pensions in the hundreds of thousands per year and our kids can,t read….We have civil servants with pensions in the hundreds of thousands….speak to me about the rich getting richer on the working man….When these dopes in Washington finally realize that empowering the poor is stupid the wealth of this nation will be gone…The productive side of this economy is loosing its wealth…
Though in some way I am agreement with you I have a question to ask. The question is “how do you empower the poor if you do not educate them?”I am tying in your points about kids not being able to read after being educated and the one about empowering the poor.
Of course I agree that this just means that you are not getting the value for your money if the goal is empowering the poor.
Kerwin …. Excelent question! ….. You provide them with free food,free education and then you empower them By giving them a right to vote the wealth of those who work for a living…. In the process the poor procreate irresponsibly,recreating their poverty in another generation…and so it goes …. when you allow a government to be your provider…
I did come from the poor class and the government aided me in paying for the education that allowed my to improve myself so I cannot say their actions do not have successes.On the other hand they often undermine the very things that bring success by pandering to special interests and ignorring the rule that moderation in all things is beneficial.
Kerwin … I was not privledged either….We were not poor ,we just didn't have any money….Government owes folks nothing…. “It is appointed unto the man to labor all his days and to earn his keep by sweat of his brow”…..This government is providing a living to not only the poor but the lazy and dishonest as well….
theodorej,I have to disagree with you as government does owe its citizens in that its underlying duty to God is to secure the God given rights of the people.
If the government choose to be charitable then that is it's choice. My complaint is if that charity becomes excessive then is destroys the very rights is is claiming to secure.
It seems that the governmment of the U.S. encourages bad behavior because it believe such behavior aids the economy. It may be rethinking that idea but change comes slowly as there are always those who resist it. Hopefully it is fast enough to avoid disaster but whatever the case God has planned for it and his plan is righteous.
The poor are no more at fault than any other group since many act in their own interests and not the interests of the whole. That is what happens in a world ruled by sin.
Trust in Jesus, trust in God, that all things will happen and are happening for the longterm benefit of those that seek God.
Kerwin ….. I concur…. my trust is in God, my frustration is the product of a mindset that plagues a large majority of the citizenry of the USA… It is my feeling that this nation is under judgement as we speak and, it will get worse if the hearts and minds of the people do not change….God judges men in the here and after …. He judges nations in the here and now….
The times are evil. The may improve on the short run or they may get worse but whatever the case God considers it in accomplishing his righteous plan.Quote (Stu @ July 23 2011,02:58) Quote (theodorej @ July 23 2011,04:31) Quote (Stu @ July 22 2011,16:32) Quote (theodorej @ July 21 2011,20:08) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2011,08:57) I see it is not the spirit of 1917 you wish to invoke, but the spirit of 1317! Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. Iam not interested in repeating history,however,Iam interested in an end to the free lunch and the beginning an era of self relience……the poor will always be with us,it is the lazy I want to stop paying…We need to put an end to political opportunity that affords those who are living off of my labors to continue to vote themselves benefits that I pay for…
If it is only the lazy you are against, then you are looking at such a tiny percentage of the population that it would probably cost more to identify them accurately than would ever be saved by the outcomes of that investigation.Stuart
Greetings Stu ….. With all due respect, your last statement was assinine …. Do realize that 48 out of every hundred american CITIZENS are getting money from the government…I did not take into account the euro slicks and the illegal immigrints that are feeding off of hard working americans…
So are 48% of Americans LAZY? Or is it they are exploited by those who promote illegal immigration thus widening the wage gap by driving down the cost of labour thus making it impossible for Americans to live in their own country without assistance?It's swings and roundabouts. Either the rich pay for the menial workers through handouts or higher costs of the services they provide. Otherwise you get starvation, food riots and revolution, at the extremes of it.
The tiniest percentage don't want to work to feed themselves and their families. Why chase the illegals who have established themselves and are working hard? That horse has bolted. By all means carry on attempting to select professionals for Green Cards. But treat the good pole-vaulters like the Americans they would like to be. Estimate what it would cost to find and repatriate those who are seriously not contributing. I bet it's not worth it.
Stuart
So you should give a thief the goods they stole because they want to be good Americans.A lawbreaker is nort a good citizen of any country and those that are robbed are justified to be upset about being robbed.
But as I told theodore the times are evil and sympathy for those that do evil is epidemic.
The government should either enforce the law or change the law. Aiding abetting lawbreaking is not the actions of a good government.
Each government becomes filled up with its sins and then falls. So it will continue to be til the end. Who but God knows when that is.
It is best to react to such times with faith and not frustration for God allows such things to occure for his righteous reasons and it is not wise to doubt his wisdom.
I disagree that lawbreakers necessarily are not good citizens. As you say, some laws might need to be changed.
Anyway, I was following you up to the whole god does this and god does that nonsense. God allows nasty things to happen because he loves us blah blah blah.
What rot.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 23 2011,16:24) I disagree that lawbreakers necessarily are not good citizens. As you say, some laws might need to be changed. Anyway, I was following you up to the whole god does this and god does that nonsense. God allows nasty things to happen because he loves us blah blah blah.
What rot.
Stuart
Stu …. God allows nasty things to happen because the nature of man creates the nastyness and very seldom will God intervene in the affairs of men….There are cases where nasty things are part of judgement…We are free to obey or disobey his law….The absurdity of your statement that lawbreakers are good citizens is indictative of a distorted sense of reason…Would you like to live in a lawless society ….Would you be able to survive…??Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,01:24) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Stu …. Iam not defending racism…. no matter who the racist is, be he or she,.. black ,white or yellow…. It is the strength of ones character that we are to be judged by….Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,04:44) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,01:24) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Stu …. Iam not defending racism…. no matter who the racist is, be he or she,.. black ,white or yellow…. It is the strength of ones character that we are to be judged by….
So the law is not sacrosanct after all? It could be that lawbreakers are defying an unjust law, and that would be the greater good? They might be more responsible citizens than the ones perpetrating the unjust law by obeying it?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,05:10) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,04:44) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,01:24) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Stu …. Iam not defending racism…. no matter who the racist is, be he or she,.. black ,white or yellow…. It is the strength of ones character that we are to be judged by….
So the law is not sacrosanct after all? It could be that lawbreakers are defying an unjust law, and that would be the greater good? They might be more responsible citizens than the ones perpetrating the unjust law by obeying it?Stuart
Stu … There is a civilized process that must be engaged in order to change an unjust law….Violence is not part of that process…..Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,05:41) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,05:10) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,04:44) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,01:24) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Stu …. Iam not defending racism…. no matter who the racist is, be he or she,.. black ,white or yellow…. It is the strength of ones character that we are to be judged by….
So the law is not sacrosanct after all? It could be that lawbreakers are defying an unjust law, and that would be the greater good? They might be more responsible citizens than the ones perpetrating the unjust law by obeying it?Stuart
Stu … There is a civilized process that must be engaged in order to change an unjust law….Violence is not part of that process…..
So you agree that non-violent lawbreaking could be the mark of a good citizen?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,10:04) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,05:41) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,05:10) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,04:44) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,01:24) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,01:03) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:56) Quote (theodorej @ July 24 2011,00:33) Quote (Stu @ July 24 2011,00:10) Nelson Mandela was a convicted criminal. Stuart
Nelson Mandela ….. Captured world attention to his cause,which was racist in nature and sought to put an end to aparthied…. P.S. He suceeded and in the process drove the productive members of the Afrikana societyfrom their land…I have not been paying much attention to South Africa these days …. How are they doing???
Do you agree that it would be absurd for me to call the convicted lawbreaker Nelson Mandela a good citizen?Stuart
Stu …. A good citizen is one who obeys the law of the land….Nelson Mandela was not a good citizen he was a rebel and a lawbreaker …. he was a terrorist by the standards set forth in these days we live in……. This does not deminish his passion for his cause,however,it brings into question his methology…. which incidently resulted in a loss of inocent lives and cosequently put him in prison…. Stu ..A civilized society cannot tolerate lawless behavior…
So you would defend racism on the grounds that it constituted the law of South Africa?Stuart
Stu …. Iam not defending racism…. no matter who the racist is, be he or she,.. black ,white or yellow…. It is the strength of ones character that we are to be judged by….
So the law is not sacrosanct after all? It could be that lawbreakers are defying an unjust law, and that would be the greater good? They might be more responsible citizens than the ones perpetrating the unjust law by obeying it?Stuart
Stu … There is a civilized process that must be engaged in order to change an unjust law….Violence is not part of that process…..
So you agree that non-violent lawbreaking could be the mark of a good citizen?Stuart
In principle Yes ….. However there are mitigating circustances that come into play …..Quote (Stu @ July 23 2011,11:24) I disagree that lawbreakers necessarily are not good citizens. As you say, some laws might need to be changed. Anyway, I was following you up to the whole god does this and god does that nonsense. God allows nasty things to happen because he loves us blah blah blah.
What rot.
Stuart
Stu,I accept you do not understand why God allows evil things to provide an example of when human leaders did so in the hope of good results. Never the less this is not the place and you are most likely already informed of such events. I used that to demonstrate that faith in God is at war with being frustrated with the victories of evil.
I agree with you that violating a law that prevents you from doing good is a righteous action.
I do not believe that violating a law in hopes of making yourself wealthier or that aiding and abetting others to do the same is righteous.
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