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Nick,
Back on this topic … Do you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a separate being with Father Yahweh in the beginning? Do you believe Father Yahweh created His son Yahshua before He created Adam or sometime in between His creating Adam and when he was born here on earth or what? Believe me, I am trying to make sense of what it is that you believe and I can not. It just does not make sense to me that Yahshua was a being created by Father Yahweh before his birth here on earth, and that somehow Father Yahweh transformed him into a newborn manchild.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 26 2006,03:45) Far out… why don't you write a book? lol
I may just do that some time….
Frank, if the Bible says something one time… is that enough for you to believe it as the very truth of God?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 31 2006,15:22) Nick, Back on this topic … Do you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a separate being with Father Yahweh in the beginning? Do you believe Father Yahweh created His son Yahshua before He created Adam or sometime in between His creating Adam and when he was born here on earth or what? Believe me, I am trying to make sense of what it is that you believe and I can not. It just does not make sense to me that Yahshua was a being created by Father Yahweh before his birth here on earth, and that somehow Father Yahweh transformed him into a newborn manchild.
Jesus defintely preexisted as the eternal Son prior to His incarnation…. jesus was never “created” as Heis the creator of all things… and.. manifestly, it is impossible to create one's self into existence… so if Jesus created all…. ALL…. things, He Himself cannot have been created, rather, He is the creator of all that is…. and, just as importantly, it is by and through Him that everything that exists continues to exist…. if He were to withdraw His hand for one millisecond creation itself would cease to be…. and so, this is yet another proof of Christ's divnity……as an aside, I am saddened to see a fellow Hoosier go down such a strange and blasphemous path when it comes to Christology…. are you a native Hoosier or an import? 😉
blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2006,17:00) Frank, if the Bible says something one time… is that enough for you to believe it as the very truth of God?
Never ONCE does it say in Scripture “Jesus preexisted as the eternal Son prior to His incarnation” and “jesus was the creator of all things”.
Hi F4Y,
There are lots of things that are true that scripture does not specifically state.Bu this is stated
1Jn 4.9
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.”Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 31 2006,15:22) Nick, Back on this topic … Do you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a separate being with Father Yahweh in the beginning? Do you believe Father Yahweh created His son Yahshua before He created Adam or sometime in between His creating Adam and when he was born here on earth or what? Believe me, I am trying to make sense of what it is that you believe and I can not. It just does not make sense to me that Yahshua was a being created by Father Yahweh before his birth here on earth, and that somehow Father Yahweh transformed him into a newborn manchild.
Hi F4Y,
The Word was with God as the monogenes son and all creation came through him. He was not created but begotten directly from God as His image.
Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. “Hi F4Y,
Is it so surprising that Christ would come from origins of old and yet be as us?
We know he is the image of God
We know we are made in the image of God.
God is not flesh but spirit.
So the likeness to Christ and to God is in our hidden inner self from the breath of God.
Being alike to God to beome like us he had to empty himself, so he is a vessel as we are.
He also needed flesh to be like us so scripture says he partook of flesh.
Mary was the human mother he was conceived in as flesh with God 's Spirit as Father.The topic of this thread is “Why the Confusion?”
I say the confusion comes because of the various aspects of the so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine (including a pre-existent and eternal son) and because they do not give Father Yahweh the esteem (glory) that is due unto His Name (Psalm 29:2, 96:8 & I Chronicles 16:29).
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 31 2006,15:22) Nick, Do you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a separate being with Father Yahweh in the beginning? Do you believe Father Yahweh created His son Yahshua before He created Adam?
Yes or no? I thought I was rephrase and break the questions that you did not give a direct answer to down for you.
Hi F4Y,
The confusion comes from men not grasping the Law of agency in my view.So when they see things ascribed to
God
and
His servants
they rush to thinking that
the servants
must be
that God.Yet they do not do such things in other areas but in the name of man-made religion, all kinds of absurdities seem to be common.
Is an ambassador for a country confused with being the country he represents, or a son confused with being his Father or his whole family?
In everyday things people are pretty onto it and know what is what. But in the realm of religion people sort of go all drunk.
Frank4YAHWEH.
Jesus pre-existed as the Word of God who was with God in the beginning. We also know that Jesus returned to the glory that he had with God before he came to earth and now that he is returned he is called “The Word of God”.
So the Word who was with God in the beginning is also now the Word of God.
I think it is quite simple to understand.
1)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2)
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.3)
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.4)
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.1) The Word was WITH God
2) The Word became flesh
3) The Word who became flesh, returned to his previous glory with the Father
4) He is glorified and his name is the Word of God.Of course I am fully aware that you probably have an argument that tries to deny this simplicity by reason of its length. But it doesn't matter how complex you get with this, you cannot deny the four scriptures I have quoted.
Hi Oxy,
Matt 16
” 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
You agree with Peter.Joel 2
” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
Now can you agree with God about His Spirit?It amazes me how difficult it is to understand God's Word for so many. Yet, when you think of how long the world has been deceived in believing that the trinity doctrine was sound. Only until religious freedom and the freedom to voice one's opinion did man step from the bondage that held him captive within the confines of the doctrines of men. Yet, even today, men refuse to relinquish the hold that the centuries of deception has upon him.
God the Father, in the beginning begat the Word, his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, our salvation, the quicking Spirit. Even before the creation of the heavens and the earth, our salvation was established.
And the Word, was with God. The Father and the Son were together as Father and Son.
And the Word was God. The Father made the Son God and by the Son and through the Son by the unction of the Holy Spirit all of creation came into being by the will of the Father.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
HI H,
True but where was Jesus, in scripture, appointed as our God?Joseph was given all the rights and authority of the Pharaoh,
under the Pharaoh,
but he was never appointed Pharaoh.God the Father, made the Son God over all of creation. I would say that makes him our God. He will remain our God until God the Father says differently. Yet, you must understand the relationship of when we worship Jesus as God, for he is the image of the Father. And no one can come to the Father, but through the Son. So when you worship the Son, you are worshiping the Father. For the Son is the perfect will of the Father. This sounds like trinity doctrine, yet it is not. For the Son is not the Father, he is the will of the Father. And the Father is above the Son.
There will come a time when the Son will give the authority of the Godhead to the Father so that the Father will be all in all. For there is only one God.
1 Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Hi H,
You say
“God the Father, made the Son God over all of creation. I would say that makes him our God.”
Thank you for showing
it is not written as you teach
but a derived idea.Are you in the Son whom you say we should worship?
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