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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2006,20:37) Hi H,
You say
“God the Father, made the Son God over all of creation. I would say that makes him our God.”
Thank you for showing
it is not written as you teach
but a derived idea.Are you in the Son whom you say we should worship?
Jesus is God of a new creation. The Father anointed Him God “therefore God your God has anointed thee above thy fellows”. And latter:Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of “thy kingdom”.
Of course Jesus will turn His kingdom over to the father that God will be all in all (1Cor. 15:28).
Hi Kenrch,
Heb 1
“8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;”
I do not see this as appointing Jesus as a God. The anointing occurred as a man on earth.
Quote I do not see this as appointing Jesus as a God. The anointing occurred as a man on earth. Nick
Your opinion doesn't go well with scripture Nick.
To me, it sounds like it happened in the beginning. Since after all, it is speaking of the beginning of the creation of the world.
Hi H,
To call Jesus God is not to appoint him as God but to recognise his superior and even divine nature and origins surely?And if you knew the scriptures, you would know this scripture to be true. For Jesus is the beginning of creation. He was born of the Father, and annointed above all.
Heb. 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hi H,
Is this something to do with knowing the scriptures
Or rather the interpretation put on these verses?So looking at Ps 45
“2Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.3Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. “
It relates to the King as he reigns on earth, a man in whom dwells God[ v 2].cjf Rev 19
Gods are not appointed in scripture are they?Nick, if you don't want to call Jesus God, that is up to you. But I would not want to be you when standing before him on the day of Judgement.
For no man comes to the Father, but through the Son.
Hi H,
Fear not judgement if you are in the Son of God.[1Jn 4.18]
They worship God alone and are in submission to their Lord.[1Cor8]
There is no condemnation for those who are in him.[Rom 8.1]
They have already passed over from death unto life.[Jn 5]You should perhaps rather be hoping to be raised among the firstborn sons and to face the tribunal of Christ [2Cor 5.10]
What they have done with the grace invested in them is the standard they will face.[Matt 25.14f]Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 03 2006,13:48) God the Father, made the Son God over all of creation. I would say that makes him our God. He will remain our God until God the Father says differently. Yet, you must understand the relationship of when we worship Jesus as God, for he is the image of the Father. And no one can come to the Father, but through the Son. So when you worship the Son, you are worshiping the Father. For the Son is the perfect will of the Father. This sounds like trinity doctrine, yet it is not. For the Son is not the Father, he is the will of the Father. And the Father is above the Son. There will come a time when the Son will give the authority of the Godhead to the Father so that the Father will be all in all. For there is only one God.
1 Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The worship given unto Father Yahweh is not the same worship that is given unto his son Yahshua. I do not worship Yahshua as Father Yahweh (God), and Yahshua never asked that we should worship him as Father Yahweh. Please see my study on the word 'worship'.Sorry! Correction again! Would be nice if one could edit their posts on this forum.
Word Studies On WorshipQuote The worship given unto Father Yahweh is not the same worship that is given unto his son Yahshua. I do not worship Yahshua as Father Yahweh (God), and Yahshua never asked that we should worship him as Father Yahweh. Please see my study on the word 'worship'……Frank Dear Frank,
Do you believe that Jesus is God? Although I agree that he is not Father God, I believe that we cannot speak to the Father, but through the Son and that the Son is the perfect will of the Father, the perfect image of the Father and to speak to the Son is to speak to the Father. I always pray to the Father and end it in Jesus name. To me that is how it is to be done. For the Father has all the preemminence and the glory. Yet, the Father himself called the Son God and we are created by the Father's will through the Son. It is best we call Jesus God our Saviour, our captain of salvation.
I believe that:
To Believe “Jesus Is God” Is To Be Deceived!Nick,
To refer to our Heavenly Father and Creator or His son Yahshua as a mere “God” (or “god”) is to adhere to the eror of the scribes, translators, and revisors. That is what I meant when I said the confusion comes because they do not give Father Yahweh the esteem (glory) that is due unto His Name. This still stands true in this very time period. The Christians inherited from the Jews the tradition of SUBSTITUTING our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name for mere names/titles that are in reference to idols/gods of pagan/devil worship. In doing this they do not give Father Yahweh the esteem that it due unto His Name.
When those who do not have knowledge of the omittance of our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name from His word and hear and are taught such things as “Jesus is God”, they are understanding that they are being taught that Yahshua is our Heavenly Father and Creator Yahweh. This is especailly true when on the heals of the “Jesus is God” teaching they are taught that there is only one “God”. Then they may hear on the heals of that the unscriptural teaching “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and these THREE (Trinity) are one.” This is total confusion and deception on the part of these false teachers. This simply does not add up mathmatically. When one persues to try to understand this false doctrine and fails to, then they are told on the haels of these false teachings that no one can understand it and that it is a mystery. The whole of the so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine is simply vanity!
Nowhere in Scripture is it taught or said “God the Father, made the Son God over all of creation.” That would make two Gods (a Twinity), not one. There is not even so much of a mention of a “Son God” in Scripture. This teaching is simply a part of the Trinitarian doctrine that you fail to let go of Nick.
To Believe In A “Son God” Is To Be Deceived!
heiscomingintheclouds,
Yahshua is worthy of worship, but not the same worship that is given to Father Yahweh.
Hi F4Y,
Yes.
And then they teach
each
“person in God”
is a deity
which is A god.They go overboard on trying to prove Jesus is a deity
but never attampt to show the same of the Spirit of God.But I still respect the reasons for not using the name of God,
lest we be like those punished for slipping when carrying the Ark of the Covenant.Sorry Nick!
That was heiscomingintheclouds that made that “Son God” remark. You still won't let go of that Trinitarian pre-existent son doctrine though. If they did not have a pre-existent son their so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine would not have a leg to stand on.
Quote But I still respect the reasons for not using the name of God,
lest we be like those punished for slipping when carrying the Ark of the Covenant.There is no sound reasoning for not using the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator Nick. Do you really undersatand the reasoning by my they chose not to use His Name? They slipped when they took away our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name from His word and substituted mere names/titles. I certainly do not want to slip in the error in doing this.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 06 2006,21:28) Sorry Nick! That was heiscomingintheclouds that made that “Son God” remark. You still won't let go of that Trinitarian pre-existent son doctrine though. If they did not have a pre-existent son their so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine would not have a leg to stand on.
Hi F4Y,I do not need to pull down the trinity theory as any God insulting and rickety building founded on sand will crumble anyway.
Yahshua is not just a human son of God's Spirit and Mary.
He is the MONOGENES Son.Jn 8 42
” 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:
for I proceeded forth
and
came from God;
neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”Nick,
There were also many others who were sent into the world by Father Yahweh, but that does not mean that they pre-existed with Father Yahweh as beings with Father Yahweh.
Yahweh Sent His Son
The New Testament uses several phrases that would suggest that our Savior existed as a being in heaven prior to his earthly birth. Among those phrases are; “sent His Son,” “sent into the world,” “not of this world,” “came into the world,” and “came down from heaven.” Let's examine “sent His Son” and “sent into the world” first, since both phrases appear in 1 Jn.4:9,10; “In this was manifested the love of Yahweh toward us, because that Yahweh sent his only begotten Son into the world , that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved Yahweh, but that he loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” A superficial reading would lead one to believe that Yahshua was at Yahweh's side somewhere out of this world and eventually was commanded by Yahweh to come to our planet which he obediently did.
In Ps.78:45 it says Yahweh sent flies upon the Egyptians prior to the exodus of Israel. Are we to believe that these flies were living in heaven prior to their arrival in Egypt? Jn.1:6 tells us that John the Baptist was also “sent from Yahweh.” Surely none believe that John pre-existed at Yahweh's side. Notice this verse does not say “sent by Yahweh,” but “from Yahweh.” A word study of how “sent” was used in Scripture will reveal how Yahweh sent many earthly messengers and prophets to do His will. None of them, however, pre-existed in heaven.
Jn.17:18 helps us to understand the phrase “sent into the world.” It reads, “As thou hast sent me into the world , even so have I also sent them into the world. ” Obviously, the disciples were not living outside of this world prior to Yahshua sending them into the world. Neither should we believe that Yahshua existed in some other world before being sent by Yahweh into this world.
“Came into the world” is used in 1 Tim.1:15; “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Messiah Yahshua came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” The same phrase is used of all men when they are born. Jn.1:9 reads, “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ” And again in 1 Tim.6:7; “For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.” So when Heb. 1:6 says, “And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of Yahweh worship him,” it is talking about the Messiah's earthly birth.
In Jn.8:23, Yahshua said, “Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” This certainly seems to indicate an existence in another world before coming to this world. This verse is to be understood the same way we are to understand Jn.15:19; “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world , but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” Yahshua chose his disciples out of the world, therefore, they were not of this world. Yahshua said similar words in Jn.17:14; “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world , even as I am not of the world.” Yahshua is not of this world because Yahweh chose Him out of the world.
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).
Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.
John's Predecessor?
Jn.1:15 certainly suggests a pre-existence as it appears in the KJV; “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.” First, the idea of preference is not found in the Greek. The word translated “preferred” is the Greek “ginomai”. Of the 678 times it was used in the New Testament, it was translated “preferred” three times, once here and in verses 27 & 30 where the same verse is repeated. The word should have been translated “come to be”; “He that cometh after me has come to be before me.” As for the latter part of the verse, the word “before” is from the Greek “protos”. Of the 105 times this word was used, it was never translated “before”. The most common rendering is “first,” however, based on the context, it should be translated as the Emphatic Diaglott has it, “for he is my Superior.” “Protos” was also translated “chief” nine times in the New Testament.
Yahweh's Foreordained Plan
A favorite verse of pre-existence proponents is Jn.17:24. It reads, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world .” It would seem that the Father and the Son had a loving relationship before the earth was created. Understanding this verse in that way leads to complications in understanding Eph. 1:3,4. Paul says, “Blessed be the Mighty One and Father of our Master Yahshua Messiah, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Messiah: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without b
lame before him in love:” Using the same line of thinking as in Jn.17:24 we would be led to believe that all believers were chosen back in the days when they pre-existed before the earth was created. Both of these verses pertain to Yahweh's foreordained plan, not to pre-existent beings. 1Pe.1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you.” Why wasn't the “pre-existent Yahshua” made manifest back in Old Testament times? Because he didn't exist at that time except in the foreordained plans of Yahweh. Other references such as Rev.13:8 and 17:8 reveal Yahweh's plan as well.Old Glory
One of the most often used proof verses for the pre-existence doctrine is Jn.17:5; “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” The KJV translation makes this a very convincing proof text. Unfortunately it, too, is questionably translated. Was Yahshua a glorified being before the earth was created? If that is true, then he is asking for his glory to be returned to him in verse 5. What glory, then, does he already have in verses 22 and 24? They read, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” and “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me : for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” John 17 is one long prayer. How can Yahshua ask for glory that Yahweh had already given him? This is where our first error in translation appears. The word “had” is the imperfect tense of the Greek word “echo.” The following definition of the imperfect is given in Syntax and Synon. of the Greek Testament, pg.87; “The imperfect denotes an incomplete action, one that is in its course, and is not yet brought to its intended accomplishment. It implies that a certain thing was going on at a specified time, but excludes the assertion that the end of the action was attained.” In other words, Yahshua was in the process of being glorified. Instead of reading, “the glory which I had,” it should read, “the glory which I am having.” Yahshua was being glorified and showing forth his glory throughout his earthly ministry (Jn.1:14; 2:11; 11:4; 13:31; Heb.2:9). He was “having glory.”
The question would then be asked, how can Yahshua be having glory before the world was? This brings us to the second error in translation. The word “was” is the present infinitive of the Greek word “eimi.” The most common translation of this tense is “to be.” That is how it appears in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures and The Emphatic Diaglott. Jn.17:5 should read, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I am having with thee before the world to be (or to come).” Yahshua was experiencing glory at the time of his prayer. He wanted to experience that glory side by side with his Father before the creation of the new heavens and the new earth.
Seeing The Father
Jn.6:46 states Yahshua saw his Father Yahweh. He said, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of Yahweh, he hath seen the Father .” Does this mean Yahshua physically saw Yahweh with his eyes or can it be understood a different way? Yahshua spoke the following words to two disciples, Thomas and Philip, in Jn.14:7-9; “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him . Philip saith unto him, Master, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Yahshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
The disciples saw Father Yahweh because they saw Yahshua who is one with Yahweh (not a oneness of being, but a oneness of character, will, Spirit). They had only to look upon Yahshua and see his character to have it said of them, “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Yahshua had only to look at himself, his character, his determination to carry out Yahweh's will, etc., to see his Father in himself. The disciples did not have to pre-exist in order to see the Father and neither did Yahshua.
The Greek word translated “seen” in Jn.6:46 is #3708 in Strong's Concordance, meaning “to discern clearly (physically or mentally ).” In both of these cases, it was not a physical sighting of the Father, but a mental perception of His character that they were seeing.
Several names and titles have been used in reference to the being that spoke to men in the Old Testament. Among them are Spokesman, Dabar, and Metatron. We are led to believe that they are all references to the pre-existent Son of Yahweh. This, of course, is only an assumption since the Scriptures only identify that being as “the Angel of Yahweh.” If the Angel of Yahweh was Yahshua, then Yahshua pre-existed as an angel. This would contradict Heb. 1:1,2,5,7,8,13. Heb.1:1,2 implies that the Son did not speak “in times past unto the fathers.” The remaining verses imply that none of the angels were exalted as Yahshua was. Verses 7 & 8 make a clear distinction between Yahshua and angels; the angels were made ministering spirits, but the Son was made King of Yahweh's Kingdom. It is interesting to note all the different ideas as to who Yahshua pre-existed as in times past. Pre-existence proponents have a hard time deciding between the Angel of Yahweh, the Captain of the Host, a second Yahweh, Michael, Melchizidek, and even the Heavenly Father Himself!
What about Daniel's account of the sighting of “the Son of God” in Dan.3:25 (KJV)? It reads, “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” The Revised Version rightfully translates the Hebrew “a son of the Gods.” The article “the” is not in the Hebrew. This was an angel sent by Yahweh as revealed in verse 28. What knowledge would this pagan king have of the “form” of Yahweh's Son even if he did pre-exist? In his mind it could only be the form of any divine being.
The Wisdom of Yahweh
Prov.8:22-36 have been used quite often to prove the pre-existence. One need only read verses 1-12 to realize that a pre-existent Son is not speaking in verses 22-36. The Scriptures declare the speaker to be wisdom. The glorious wisdom Yahweh possessed before He created all things is personified in these verses. Notice, also, that wisdom is personified as a female, not a male. Pr.8:1 reads, “Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?” And Pr.9:1 says, “Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars.” If Yahshua pre-existed as the epitomy of wisdom, why does Rev.5:12 say he is worthy to receive wisdom? Surely an all-wise pre-existent being has no need of further wisdom.1 Cor.1:30 says, “But of him are ye in Messiah Yahshua, who of Yahweh is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:” This verse declares that Yahshua was “made unto us wisdom.” It does not say he existed as wisdom in the past. Ps.104:24 says, “O Yahweh, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.” Yahweh used His great wisdom in the creation of all things. It was like a workman at His side.
Yahweh's Firstborn
Two scriptures are often used to show that Yahshua was the very first act of creation by Yahweh. Everything else is said to have been created by, or with the help of, Yahshua. Those scriptures are Col.1:15 and Rev.3:14. Let's look at Col.1:15 first. “Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of every creature :” What does the latter part of this verse mean? Does “every creature” include the angels that rejoiced at creation?
To understand this verse, you must first understand that Yahweh is in the process of creating a new world; “the world
to come” as Heb.2:5 puts it. Is.65:17,18 speaks of “new heavens and a new earth.” Those that will rule in the new earth are those that will be resurrected or “born from above” (Jn.3:7). Ps.102:18-20 puts it very clearly; “This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise Yahweh. For He hath looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven did Yahweh behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;” These people will be created , or born, at the resurrection.To clarify even further, we read the following in Ps.104:29,30; “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created : and thou renewest the face of the earth.” Yahweh will resurrect the dead through the power of His Holy Spirit. It is said of those that are resurrected that they are “created .”
The first person to be created, or born again from above, was Yahshua. Therefore, he is called the “firstborn.” Since there are many that will be born again at the resurrection, he is the “firstborn of every creature (that will be resurrected).” Col. 1:18 elaborates further by telling us what Yahshua is the firstborn of; the dead. This takes place at the resurrection. It is also said of Yahshua that he is “the beginning” (Col.1:18). This is the same term used in Rev.3:14 which reads, “And unto the angel of the assembly of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of Yahweh; ” Does this beginning refer to a time before the angels were created or does it refer to the new creation? Some would argue that the word “new” is not in the text. Yahweh has shown us, however, that He does not always use the word “new” in describing this new creation. Notice Is.65:17,18; “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” This is speaking of New Jerusalem, yet the word “New” is not used by Yahweh.
Continuing in Colossians to verse 17 we read, “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” As a result of this translation, we are led to believe that Yahshua existed prior to anything else, including the angels. The same Greek phrase, “before all things,” is also found in Ja.5:12 and 1 Pe.4:8. Both of those texts read “above all things.” That is because the Greek word “pro,” translated “before,” also carries the meaning of superiority or pre-eminence. Since Col.1:15-18 proclaims the pre-eminence of Yahshua in all things (vs.18), translating verse 17 as “above all things” would fit the context.
It is said that the phrase “according to the flesh,” in Rom.1:3, proves Yahshua's pre-existence. It reads, “Concerning his Son Yahshua Messiah our Master, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;” It is implied from this that Yahshua existed as a spirit being before he was born according to the flesh, for why else would Paul say this? The simple reason is because Yahshua did not have an earthly father. Therefore, whether he was true flesh and blood and David's seed would come into question. Paul adds “according to the flesh” for the same reason he adds “was made of the seed of David.” Even though Yahshua did not have a flesh and blood father, he is still flesh through Miriam. He is not a spirit being or an angel that appeared in the flesh as did those who appeared to Abraham in Gen.18:2; 19:1.
Yahweh's Son
The Trinity doctrine states the Son is coeternal with the Father. Others believe the Son was the first being Yahweh created. Either view believes the “Son” pre-existed prior to his earthly birth. If that is true, how are we to understand the following words Yahweh commanded Nathan to give to David?
“When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son.” (2 Sam. 7:12-14)
Although these words primarily applied to Solomon (1 Chr.28:6), ultimately the reference is to Yahshua the Messiah, the “Son of David” (Lu.1:32,33; Heb.1:5). Heb.1:5 reads, ” For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”
Since the New Testament clearly links the words, “I will be his father, and he shall be My son” to Yahshua, note well the future tense used. If Yahshua pre-existed as Yahweh's coeternal Son or as Yahweh's first act of creation, the words “I am his Father,” and “he is my son,” should have been used. Therefore, this prophetic reference to Yahshua clearly teaches that he became Yahweh's Son at a specific time in history. He did not always exist as Yahweh's Son as the Trinity doctrine teaches. Nor could he have existed as the first act of creation since 2 Sam.7:14 places his becoming the Son at a time that was in David's future.
The Form of Elohim
This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)
To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).
As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”
Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.
In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father Yahweh. As
a reward for his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For additional information, please see the study entitled “Yahshua is not Yahweh – Parts 1 and 2.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10; Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1 Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as Elohim and echad.
John CordaroThe Hebrew Word 'Echad' – Is It Singular Or Plural (“Compound Unity”)?
And Yahweh turned a very strong west wind, which lifted the locusts and drove them into the Red Sea; not a single (Echad) locust was left in all the country of Egypt (Exodus 10:19).
For the Yahweh had said to Moshe, “Say to the people of Yisryl, `You are a stiff-necked people; if for a single moment (Echad) I should go up among you, I would consume you.” (Exodus 36:5).
… and her two sons, of whom the name of the one (Echad) was Gershom.” (Exodus 18:3).
“…..Take one (Echad) young bull and two rams without blemish” (Exodus 29:1).
“Then you shall take one (Echad) of the rams, and Aaron and his sons shall…” (Exodus 29:15).
One (Echad) lamb you shall offer in the morning, and…” (Exodus 29:39).
one (Echad) young bull, one (Echad) ram, one (Echad) male lamb a year old, for a burnt offering; 16: one (Echad) male goat for a sin offering; (Numbers 7:15).
“A single (Echad) witness shall not prevail against a man for any crime…” (Deuteronomy 19:15).
So Yahweh caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one (Echad) of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; (Genesis 2:21).
And Lamech took two wives; the name of the one (Eahad) was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah (Genesis 4:19).
To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one (Echad) was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan (Genesis 10:25).
We are all sons of one (Echad) man, we are honest men, your servants are not spies.” (Genesis 42:11).
And they said, “We, your servants, are twelve brothers, the sons of one (Echad) man in the land of Canaan; and behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one (Echad) is no more.” (Genesis 42:13).
… if you are honest men, let one (Echad) of your brothers (Genesis 42:19).
… we are twelve brothers, sons of our father; one (Echad) is no more, and the youngest is this day with our father in the land of Canaan.' (Genesis 42:32).
And the priest shall take one (Echad) of the male lambs, and offer it for a guilt offering (Leviticaus 14:12).
… then he shall take one (Echad) male lamb for a guilt offering to be waved (Leviticus 14:21).
… also two turtledoves or two young pigeons,..the one (Echad) shall be a sin offering and the other a burnt offering (Leviticus 14:22).
And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one (Echad) ram for a burnt offering (Leviticus 16:5).
And you shall offer one (Echad) male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of peace offerings Leviticus 23:19).
… and he shall offer his gift to Yahweh, one (Echad) male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering, and one (Echad) ewe lamb a year old without blemish as a sin offering, and one (Echad) ram without blemish as a peace offering, (Numbers 6:14).
For Yahweh had said to Moshe, “Say to the people of Yisryl,`You are a stiff-necked people; if for a single moment (Echad) I should go up among you, I would consume you.” (Exodus 33:5).
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