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Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,06:21) It is as simple as this —
A completely human Christ produces hope that I can be perfected in like manner as Christ.
An augmented Christ (via deity or knowledge from pre-existence) produces doubt as to how much or even if it is possible to become like Christ.
Hi Martian,And that's what you've been saying all along. Don't worry, WE ALL GET IT! We are completly aware that you WANT a completely human Christ.
The problem stems from your WANT overpowering your will to believe what scriptures actually teach.
So REALLY, it as simple as this – – –
Scriptures teach that Christ pre-exsisted and everything came into being through him. DEAL WITH IT.mike
Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,05:59) Do I have a righteous anger about that at times? You bet! I get angry to see my beloved’s mission so carelessly compared. Do I sometimes get in the flesh with that anger? Yes I guess I do. As Gene put it I am not perfect yet. However with another human’s example to follow I know that the perfection I seek in God is possible. I have seen it done by my fully human – non pre-existent brother, Jesus.
Hi Martin,Anger is something 'you' need to remove; 'your' labeling
'it' as “Righteous” does NOT make it so! (Col.3:8-10)Micah 7:18: Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression
of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.Col.3:8-10 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication
out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:Heb 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us,
that they(Martin) without us should not be made perfect.Eph.4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we
henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every
wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby
they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow
up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:23) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,06:21) It is as simple as this —
A completely human Christ produces hope that I can be perfected in like manner as Christ.
An augmented Christ (via deity or knowledge from pre-existence) produces doubt as to how much or even if it is possible to become like Christ.
Hi Martian,And that's what you've been saying all along. Don't worry, WE ALL GET IT! We are completly aware that you WANT a completely human Christ.
The problem stems from your WANT overpowering your will to believe what scriptures actually teach.
So REALLY, it as simple as this – – –
Scriptures teach that Christ pre-exsisted and everything came into being through him. DEAL WITH IT.mike
Again without published and agreed upon principles by which you come to your conclusions of the meaning of those scriptures your concepts are just opinion. I want proof derived by honest principles of interpretation and not just opinion. You cannot read an english translation of a 2 to 6 thousand year old document written in another land and culture and say it is what it is. That process is stupid and dishonest. And telling me that the process you use to make your conclusions is none of my business doesn't cut it either. No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries. All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you. You have never honestly with an open heart studied it or you would leave it behind. That is assuming you have a heart to walk with God and not just with doctrine.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,07:39) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,05:59) Do I have a righteous anger about that at times? You bet! I get angry to see my beloved’s mission so carelessly compared. Do I sometimes get in the flesh with that anger? Yes I guess I do. As Gene put it I am not perfect yet. However with another human’s example to follow I know that the perfection I seek in God is possible. I have seen it done by my fully human – non pre-existent brother, Jesus.
Hi Martin,Anger is something 'you' need to remove; 'your' labeling
'it' as “Righteous” does NOT make it so! (Col.3:8-10)Micah 7:18: Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression
of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.Col.3:8-10 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication
out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:Heb 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us,
that they(Martin) without us should not be made perfect.Eph.4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we
henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every
wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby
they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow
up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,07:39) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,05:59) Do I have a righteous anger about that at times? You bet! I get angry to see my beloved’s mission so carelessly compared. Do I sometimes get in the flesh with that anger? Yes I guess I do. As Gene put it I am not perfect yet. However with another human’s example to follow I know that the perfection I seek in God is possible. I have seen it done by my fully human – non pre-existent brother, Jesus.
Hi Martin,Anger is something 'you' need to remove; 'your' labeling
'it' as “Righteous” does NOT make it so! (Col.3:8-10)Micah 7:18: Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression
of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.Col.3:8-10 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication
out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:Heb 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us,
that they(Martin) without us should not be made perfect.Eph.4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we
henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every
wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby
they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow
up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,07:23) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,06:21) It is as simple as this —
A completely human Christ produces hope that I can be perfected in like manner as Christ.
An augmented Christ (via deity or knowledge from pre-existence) produces doubt as to how much or even if it is possible to become like Christ.
Hi Martian,And that's what you've been saying all along. Don't worry, WE ALL GET IT! We are completly aware that you WANT a completely human Christ.
The problem stems from your WANT overpowering your will to believe what scriptures actually teach.
So REALLY, it as simple as this – – –
Scriptures teach that Christ pre-exsisted and everything came into being through him. DEAL WITH IT.mike
You keep saying that I want a human Christ. My desires have nothing to do with it. In fact you want to prove your doctrine and you are willing to negate or hinder the plan of God for man to prove it.
All scriptural interpretation is subject to the overall plan of God. God's plan for a perfect example to humanity demands a fully human being who is like us from conception forward. It's not me that demands it, it is the plan of God that demands it.
Secondly – I find your appeal to scriptural proof a little funny since you do not show any process by which you form your conclusions. As I have said time and time again I will not yield to your opinion of a translation written in English of a document 2.000 years old in another land, culture and language.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:06) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,07:39) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,05:59) Do I have a righteous anger about that at times? You bet! I get angry to see my beloved’s mission so carelessly compared. Do I sometimes get in the flesh with that anger? Yes I guess I do. As Gene put it I am not perfect yet. However with another human’s example to follow I know that the perfection I seek in God is possible. I have seen it done by my fully human – non pre-existent brother, Jesus.
Hi Martin,Anger is something 'you' need to remove; 'your' labeling
'it' as “Righteous” does NOT make it so! (Col.3:8-10)Micah 7:18: Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression
of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.Col.3:8-10 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication
out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:Heb 11:40: God having provided some better thing for us,
that they(Martin) without us should not be made perfect.Eph.4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we
henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every
wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby
they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow
up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
This is a matter of semantics and off topic. I am done with this aspect of this thread.Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:11) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:06) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57)
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
This is a matter of semantics and off topic. I am done with this aspect of this thread.
Hi Martian,There is no record of Jesus getting angry; yet this is something you assert?
Would that not constitute by 'your own classification' as 'monkey ministries'?Think about it! (Matt.7:2)
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:23) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:11) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:06) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57)
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
This is a matter of semantics and off topic. I am done with this aspect of this thread.
Hi Martian,There is no record of Jesus getting angry; yet this is something you assert?
Would that not constitute by 'your own classification' as 'monkey ministries'?Think about it! (Matt.7:2)
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You want a different term? How about righteous indignation or justified response to injustice. It is semantics. Scripture says to be angry and sin not. It is not a sin to be angry and it is my opinion that Christ had anger when he rebuked the pharasees and money changers.Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,09:15) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:23) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:11) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:06) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57)
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
This is a matter of semantics and off topic. I am done with this aspect of this thread.
Hi Martian,There is no record of Jesus getting angry; yet this is something you assert?
Would that not constitute by 'your own classification' as 'monkey ministries'?Think about it! (Matt.7:2)
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You want a different term? How about righteous indignation or justified response to injustice. It is semantics. Scripture says to be angry and sin not. It is not a sin to be angry and it is my opinion that Christ had anger when he rebuked the pharasees and money changers.
Hi Martian,What makes 'you think' 'your opinions' are any more valid than Mike's? (Matt.7:1-5)
You say: Mike is reading into the text, but I “Proved” (to you) that is exactly what 'you' have done!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Eccl.9:12-26 / Isaiah 27:4-5)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:09) Secondly – I find your appeal to scriptural proof a little funny since you do not show any process by which you form your conclusions. As I have said time and time again I will not yield to your opinion of a translation written in English of a document 2.000 years old in another land, culture and language.
I take it then that you fluently read both Hebrew and Koine Greek?mike
Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am” and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham?
If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones).That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist.
e.g., are you Barley?
If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,15:32) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:09) Secondly – I find your appeal to scriptural proof a little funny since you do not show any process by which you form your conclusions. As I have said time and time again I will not yield to your opinion of a translation written in English of a document 2.000 years old in another land, culture and language.
I take it then that you fluently read both Hebrew and Koine Greek?mike
Has nothing to do with it. I do know how to use a reference work. Do you? Oh yes I forgot that is mere men writing those works. UNLESS – IT IS ONE THAT FAVORS YOUR OPINION. Dishonest to the max.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,09:25) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,09:15) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:23) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:11) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:06) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,07:57)
Righteous anger is a term I use to explain the same anger that was expressed by Christ with the money changers or when he called the pharasees a brood of vipers. It is not a sin to be angry when I see someone misrepresent the character of God or the mission of my brother, Christ. If I am wrong in my asesment of that misrepresentation then that is a matter between God and myself.BTW – On the freeway to heaven you missed your exit. It was the one marked “Sin Police Exit here.”
Hi Martian,There is NO biblical record of Jesus getting angry?
Try reading 'your' previous Post…'No personal disrespect to you but that is what I call Monkey Ministries.
All you are doing is mimicking something someone else told you.'Heed 'your' own words!
This is a matter of semantics and off topic. I am done with this aspect of this thread.
Hi Martian,There is no record of Jesus getting angry; yet this is something you assert?
Would that not constitute by 'your own classification' as 'monkey ministries'?Think about it! (Matt.7:2)
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You want a different term? How about righteous indignation or justified response to injustice. It is semantics. Scripture says to be angry and sin not. It is not a sin to be angry and it is my opinion that Christ had anger when he rebuked the pharasees and money changers.
Hi Martian,What makes 'you think' 'your opinions' are any more valid than Mike's? (Matt.7:1-5)
You say: Mike is reading into the text, but I “Proved” (to you) that is exactly what 'you' have done!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Eccl.9:12-26 / Isaiah 27:4-5)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Because I admit that they are opinion. Mike wants us to believe that his opinion is a fact without question. Secondly Mike uses little or no honest principles to back up his opinion and refuses to show what process he does use to form his conclusions.All the goble dee Goop posted and to my knowledge no preexister has yet to answer the original questions about fruit. How does the teaching of the pre-existence help me on my journey to become more like Christ?
Are you telling that pre-existence is God's word and yet it is coming back void?Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,01:00) All the goble dee Goop posted and to my knowledge no preexister has yet to answer the original questions about fruit. How does the teaching of the pre-existence help me on my journey to become more like Christ?
Are you telling that pre-existence is God's word and yet it is coming back void?
yes, I have answered that…. The fruit is that God needed someone with Him. Don't you want Children? We did when Georg and I got married, and I think that God wanted it too…. So He created His Son. How? That is not revealed….
That is what I think God wanted…. the fruit is a Son. Except it or deny it, it is up to you. Since it is rather a controversial question to begin with…It should not matter to us if there is a fruit or not, God created His Son and it is according to Scripture, and that is what matters………Also God is no respecter of man…… if it says in Scripture, I don't need any explanation if it helps me or not or you for that matter… You might not even know the hidden fact why…..IreneQuote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09) Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am” and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham?
If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones).That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist.
e.g., are you Barley?
If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley.
T8……….Assumption, assumptions, but no statement of (FACT) Just a assumed position by forcing the text to say what you want it to say, But as Martian so eloquently brought out and i and barely to, your forcing the text just like the Trinitarians do. Show us where the (WORD) Jesus is what John 1:1 wrote, if not then you along with the rest are (FORCING) THE TEXT, to meet you conclusions. As Martian brought out, can you show us how your conclusions produce (ANY) positive effect in Our Walk with GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord.T8 brother you are simply Half Way out of the Apostate teaching come all the way out , use martian's techniques for qualifying the truth. We need sound teachings here not half truths derived by the false religions of the Greeks and detractors from the true Gospel. Remember John said they went (OUT) from Us , but they really were not of Us or they would not have left us. Come back to the sound platform ounce and for all delievered to us. Jesus did not preexist his berth here on earth (EXCEPT) in the Plan and purpose of the will of GOD. Think about it MAN!.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 17 2010,02:17) Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,01:00) All the goble dee Goop posted and to my knowledge no preexister has yet to answer the original questions about fruit. How does the teaching of the pre-existence help me on my journey to become more like Christ?
Are you telling that pre-existence is God's word and yet it is coming back void?
yes, I have answered that…. The fruit is that God needed someone with Him. Don't you want Children? We did when Georg and I got married, and I think that God wanted it too…. So He created His Son. How? That is not revealed….
That is what I think God wanted…. the fruit is a Son. Except it or deny it, it is up to you. Since it is rather a controversial question to begin with…It should not matter to us if there is a fruit or not, God created His Son and it is according to Scripture, and that is what matters………Also God is no respecter of man…… if it says in Scripture, I don't need any explanation if it helps me or not or you for that matter… You might not even know the hidden fact why…..Irene
Irene,
We have a history. A history I do not want to repeat. I am still getting used to your new forum name. Had I realized it was you I would not have posted back to you. I will leave you in peace with what you believe. I hope you will show me the same curtesy.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09) Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am” and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham?
If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones).That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist.
e.g., are you Barley?
If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley.
I believe hat you ae making the same mistake as Mike. It is not possible to read a 2,000 y/o document from another language and culture in an English translation and just form an opinion. You must study the language, the culture even sometimes the geographic location to come up with an accurate answer. The percentages are very low that an opinion baed solely on reading an English translation can be accurate. Don't you want to be right about God's word? Don't you want to increase the odds that your conclusions are right through good honest study?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,15:32) Quote (martian @ Aug. 16 2010,08:09) Secondly – I find your appeal to scriptural proof a little funny since you do not show any process by which you form your conclusions. As I have said time and time again I will not yield to your opinion of a translation written in English of a document 2.000 years old in another land, culture and language.
I take it then that you fluently read both Hebrew and Koine Greek?mike
This is typical and frustrating about you Mike. You would rather make a snied comment then deal with the real issue of the thread. Go backi to your scripture threads if you want to argue scripture. stop hijacking my threads. This thread requires no real scripture backup. What are the fruits of the pre=existence doctrine.
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