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Ed J,
I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
Ed J,
YOU: Jesus was God’s Son according to many, many, Scriptures, not Joseph’s.
ME: We are not debating over whether or not Jesus was God’s Son, good grief. We are debating over the definition of what makes Jesus God’s Son.
You deny God’s promises, you act as if they don’t exist as you do not apply them directly where they are to be applied. There is NO promise that God was going to make a special one of a kind being, a Son by impregnating a woman with His seed, nor by Him sending down an already existing Son to be morphed into a zygote.
Jesus is said to be God’s Son according to a promise given to David, where God would beget David’s son and make him into His own Son.
Why is it so hard for you to apply the FACT that FIRST you have a human of the seed of David, and then you have God making him into His own Son????
You have Jesus, said by Matthew to be of the GENESIS of David and Joseph, tell you that he was born again, born of God’s Spirit!
You have Paul tell you that Jesus is David’s son and is a Son of God according to the Spirit.
You are told that those that are “led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God“.
You are told directly that the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus and he was LED by the Spirit.
The people believed Jesus was the Son of God according to the miracles that he performed, as such was prophesied concerning the son of David, where God would rest His Spirit upon him, and he would go out and heal the blind among many other miracles.
Ed J, you can even read in scripture that the FIRST time we hear God call Jesus His Son is upon the Spirit descending upon Jesus like a dove.
Ed J,
1) I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
YOU: Jesus was God’s Son according to many, many, Scriptures, not Joseph’s.
2) ME: We are not debating over whether or not Jesus was God’s Son, good grief. We are debating over the definition of what makes Jesus God’s Son.
Why is it so hard for you to apply the FACT that FIRST you have a human of the seed of David, and then you have God making him into His own Son????
You have Jesus, said by Matthew to be of the GENESIS of David and Joseph, tell you that he was born again, born of God’s Spirit!
Hi Jodi,
Again you are jumping all over the place trying to establish what’s in your mind.
First thing’s first. First tell me how you account for the different Genealogies,
between the account given in Matthew Chapter 1 and the account given in Luke chapter 3?____________
God bless
Ed JHi Ed J,
What does your family tree look like?
You have a mother who has 2 separate lineages coming from her mother and her father.
You have a father who also has 2 separate lineages coming from his mother and his father.
We have two different lineages that are for Jacob given to us in Matthew and in Luke.
All things being considered the bible could have given us 4 lists of who Jacob descended from.
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Here Ed J you are directly being told that Jesus is in fact the son of Joseph as people did suppose anyway. You have Jesus being of Joseph going all the way to being of Adam.
This goes perfectly with what you are told in Acts 17,
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 For as much then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Jesus is of the blood of Adam, he is a man who God ordained. God raised him to be the firstborn of the dead of many brethren.
Hi Ed J,
In the OT we see many times when a son is being spoken of, there being a point made to list their mother’s father.
Such is what I believe we see in Luke 3, we are being given the lineage of Joseph according to his mother’s father. Heli is the father of Joseph’s mother and in Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through his father.
Here are just a few examples,
1 King 15: 2 Three years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Maachah, the daughter of Abishalom.
Leviticus 24:11 And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.
Hi Jodi,
First thing’s first. First tell me how you account for the different Genealogies,
between the account given in Matthew Chapter 1 and the account given in Luke chapter 3?We have two different lineages that are for Jacob given to us in Matthew and in Luke.
Hi Jodi,
Jacob??? You mean Joseph?
My question is:
The lineage given in Matthew Chapter 1 is who’s lineage?
and
The lineage given in Luke Chapter 3 is who’s lineage?What are you saying??? Please speak clearly, ok?
____________
God bless
Ed JHi Ed J,
In Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s father.
In Luke we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s mother’s father, as it is custom apparently by many examples in the OT that a son’s mother’s father is declared.
Jodi, I don’t share your belief that Joseph was Jesus’ biological father.
And I see you spring-boarding off that assumption, so no I don’t agree!Ed J, I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
Hi Ed J, In Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s father.
Hi Jodi,
Great we agree that the Lineage in Mathew Chapter 1 is of Joseph’s Father.
Now we have something to work with here. Let’s look at how the lineage ends…”16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” (Matt 1:16)
Here in verse 16 it clearly says that Jesus was born of Mary.
It does in NO WAY say that Jesus was born of Joseph as you assume?Do you understand grammar? There would have to be a comma
right after Joseph to say what you assume it is saying.Like this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Meaning this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, of whom was born Jesus
But that is NOT what the text is saying!Instead it says:
Mary, of whom was born JesusDo you understand what I’m telling you?
”Yes” or “No”? (<– Please Answer)Please don’t go into more lengthy explanations of what you believe, and why you believe what you believe.
Instead please stay on topic here: and address my question regarding grammar, about what the verse is and is not saying, ok?Thank You!
____________
God bless
Ed JJodi, I don’t share your belief that Joseph was Jesus’ biological father.
And I see you spring-boarding off that assumption, so no I don’t agree!<Ed J, I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
Hi Ed J, In Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s father.
Hi Jodi,
Great we agree that the Lineage in Mathew Chapter 1 is of Joseph’s Father.
Now we have something to work with here. Let’s look at how the lineage ends…”16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” (Matt 1:16)
Here in verse 16 it clearly says that Jesus was born of Mary.
It does in NO WAY say that Jesus was born of Joseph as you assume?Do you understand grammar? There would have to be a comma
right after Joseph to say what you assume it is saying.Like this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Meaning this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, of whom was born Jesus
But that is NOT what the text is saying!Instead it says:
Mary, of whom was born JesusDo you understand what I’m telling you?
”Yes” or “No”? (<-- Please Answer)Please don't go into more lengthy explanations of what you believe, and why you believe what you believe.
Instead please stay on topic here: and address my question regarding grammar, about what the verse is and is not saying, ok?Thank You!
Jodi, I don’t share your belief that Joseph was Jesus’ biological father.
And I see you spring-boarding off that assumption, so no I don’t agree!Ed J, I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
Hi Ed J, In Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s father.
Hi Jodi,
Great we agree that the Lineage in Mathew Chapter 1 is of Joseph’s Father.
Now we have something to work with here. Let’s look at how the lineage ends…”16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” (Matt 1:16)
Here in verse 16 it clearly says that Jesus was born of Mary.
It does in NO WAY say that Jesus was born of Joseph as you assume?Do you understand grammar? There would have to be a comma
right after Joseph to say what you assume it is saying.Like this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Meaning this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, of whom was born Jesus
But that is NOT what the text is saying!Instead it says:
Mary, of whom was born JesusDo you understand what I’m telling you?
”Yes” or “No”? (<– Please Answer)Please don’t go into more lengthy explanations of what you believe, and why you believe what you believe.
Instead please stay on topic here: and address my question regarding grammar, about what the verse is and is not saying, ok?Thank You!
____________
God bless
Ed JHi Jodi
Jodi, I don’t share your belief that Joseph was Jesus’ biological father.
And I see you spring-boarding off that assumption, so no I don’t agree!Ed J, I never assumed you believed that Joseph was Jesus’s biological father, I knew full well that you didn’t.
Hi Ed J, In Matthew we are given the lineage of Joseph through Joseph’s father.
Hi Jodi,
Great we agree that the Lineage in Mathew Chapter 1 is of Joseph’s Father.
Now we have something to work with here. Let’s look at how the lineage ends…”16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.” (Matt 1:16)
Here in verse 16 it clearly says that Jesus was born of Mary.
It does in NO WAY say that Jesus was born of Joseph as you assume?Do you understand grammar? There would have to be a comma
right after Joseph to say what you assume it is saying.Like this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus
Meaning this…
And Jacob begat Joseph, of whom was born Jesus
But that is NOT what the text is saying!Instead it says:
Mary, of whom was born JesusDo you understand what I’m telling you?
”Yes” or “No”? (Please Answer)Please don’t go into more lengthy explanations of what you believe, and why you believe what you believe.
Instead please stay on topic here: and address my question regarding grammar, about what the verse is and is not saying, ok?Thank You!
Hi Ed J,
COMMAS are added to the text at the translators discretion. The oldest copies of the NT had no punctuation. So the argument you are trying to make is bologna. Actually in you bringing this up serves my argument even better.
The very FACT that we are being given the GENESIS of Jesus that leads all the way up to Joseph and then a summary is given to you of that Genesis at the end, tells you that a comma rightly deserves to be there!
1 The book of the generation (GENESIS) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;..16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
generation GENESIS, source, origin
a book of one’s lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumeratedgenerations Genea, fathered, birth, nativity
that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a familyED J you CANNOT VOID that the passage says this is the GENESIS of Jesus and that it gives you the lineage of Joseph, and even summarizes the GENEA at the end going from Abraham to David, to Christ.
ALSO, the word below translated as “her” is AUTOS which is used as his and their repeatedly throughout the NT, as well as her.
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her (autos, HIS, THEIR) firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
THIS passage can absolutely say correctly, “And knew her not till she had brought forth THEIR firstborn son and he called his name Jesus.”
WHY is that? BECAUSE we are given that the GENESIS of Jesus comes directly from Joseph, we are given directly that Jesus is begotten/of the stock of Joseph.
Hi All
My thoughts on Joseph being the biological Father as Jodi says.
Me:The judgment of death because of Adam’s sin was imputed to the entire human race.
“For as by one man’s disobedience [Adam’s sin] many were made sinners.”
Romans 5:19
It was not their own disobedience that made the many to be reckoned as sinners. Paul said it was Adam’s sin.Jesus Christ had a legal right through Joseph, Jesus Christ was Joseph adopted Son. Jesus Christ was God’s Son when He was conceived by the virgin Mary. The Word became the Son to die for the sins of the world. To put it plainly, Paul taught that all of us are sinful (initially) because we inherited sinful flesh from our first father, Adam.
Jodi to Me you’ll do and say anything to make Jesus Christ just a man, I don’t believe any of us is saying He wasn’t a man, see I believe He took on the form of a man. The Son Of God and The Son of Man speaks of the same person Jesus Christ, you neglect to see that. The Atonement speaks otherwise, that Jesus Christ was a biological son of Joseph or anyone.
The conception of Christ. When the Father caused His conception to occur in the womb of Mary (John 1:14), it was not Mary’s physical ovum that was engendered to cause Christ to become “flesh.” Christ became the seed of Mary (the woman of prophecy) by means of a heavenly-created ovum placed in Mary’s womb, which was then impregnated by the Spirit. Everything about Christ’s conception was spiritual and had nothing to do with the uniting of a human sperm with a human ovum.
The ovum impregnated by the Spirit was not from Mary’s ovum. Mary was actually a surrogate mother to Christ Jesus and neither her ovum nor Joseph’s sperm created Him. The fetus that grew in Mary’s womb was NOT a descendant of Adam and Eve (it would have inherited sin), but from a sinless God in heaven.
Likewise, that fetus of Jesus was sinless, as God in heaven is sinless. The fetus of itself was NOT YET Christ Jesus bearing the sins of the world because that fetus did NOT have sins on it. But as soon as that fetus became a living human being at its birth, a“living soul” breathing air into its lungs, that baby then had all the sins of the world placed on His back.
This means that Christ did not inherit any of Adam’s sins, but He came directly from heaven; the sperm and ovum that created Christ were heavenly in origin, not from Adam or Eve or Joseph or Mary. True, as surrogate parents, Christ was legally Joseph’s and Mary’s son (as far as the world was concerned and as far as prophetic matters require), but His origin was totally heavenly. He came from heaven where He had been for the previous eons reigning with the Father (Philippians 2:6–11). The fact that Christ was considered Joseph’s and Mary’s child (or being David’s progeny) was a legal recognition by God. However, even God’s legal acceptance is a true recognition of Christ’s descent from David. We been through this before Jodi.
God bless
Hi Anthony,
You can create some theory about some special womb all you want. I am going to stick directly to scripture and believe what it says, Jesus is a HUMAN and his GENESIS comes from the stock of Abraham, David, and Joseph. GENESIS and Genea DO NOT equate to “adoption”. Likewise it is God Himself, by His wisdom, who distinguished how a human son is created, which according to God by His design, you need an egg with 23 chromosomes and a sperm with 23 chromosomes.
Adam was given a commandment and the punishment for breaking it was death, that punishment carried over to all of his children, thus to all humans. When there is no law sin is not imputed, but none of the less we were all made mortal, able to die in one way or another, be it a disease, starvation, sword, fire, etc..
Anthony being a mortal able to die equates to having WEAK flesh, it creates enmity in our carnal mind, as by our very nature we are born into bondage by our weak flesh having to serve it in order to survive, just like other living creatures on earth.
God gave the law so that man would know the rules to live by in serving our flesh. The only problem is we can learn what those rules are but of our own self we are not capable of following them. All of history has been God teaching mankind that we need His Spirit working in us in order to be good.
Such is exactly why Jesus said that only God is good, and that he can do nothing of himself, all his words of wisdom and good deeds came from God being in him, God being with him via the fruits of God’s Spirit that God can give to a human. Jesus being able to follow God’s laws, God’s will, God’s directions, is because as the son of Jesse he was the HUMAN prophesied to be called to righteousness, where God would hold his hand and keep him from sin.
The law was given so we would know right from wrong, and God brought Jesus forth to prove to us that without the fruits of God’s Spirit, we cannot achieve righteousness that gives us our eternal life.
Anthony from what you said, totally sounds like that you are in complete denial that Jesus is the firstborn of the dead of many brethren. What I can also gather is that you really have no clue to the great significance of the below passages and what they tell you in relation to who Jesus Christ most assuredly had to be.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are children of God, for as Paul had said in the same chapter “for as many as are LED by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God”.
Anthony, our faith and hope is believing that Jesus was a human just like us, and that by God’s Spirit leading Jesus with a call to righteousness he never missed a mark and thus was not worthy of death. God perfected Jesus and gave him eternal life, our faith and hope is to believe that we are also an heir of God an heir to being fully led by His Spirit that leads us to righteousness, and thus eternal life. If Jesus was not a mortal human like we are your FAITH is of a LIE.
If Jesus was not a human like us, and it was not God’s Spirit leading a human through a calling to righteousness, where he was able to condemn sin in the flesh, than we have no chance for righteousness and eternal life.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Colossains 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn overall creation.
The human who SHED HIS BLOOD and was resurrected is the image of the invisible God, and at Jesus’s second coming we too shall be the image of the invisible God, as Jesus IS the firstborn of many brethren. Jesus entered God’s Kingdom first before all of creation, when he returns we will be a Son of God as he is a Son of God, and animals will also be changed for the lamb will peacefully dwell with the lion.
Anthony, you clearly deny that Jesus is of the FRUIT of David’s loins, you deny God’s word that the offspring of Jesse God would call to righteousness and rest His Spirit upon him so that he could be a covenant. The one who saves us from our sins is a HUMAN, the one returning so that we can be joint heirs with him, being an heir of God as he is, is a HUMAN.
Anthony, does it just go right through your ears that God ANOINTED David with His Spirit, and that God promised David that He would ANOINT his son also?
you have a garbage theory how Jesus is not David’s son, and then you have a garbage theory as to what Christ represents.
You want to explain the below passage? SEED does not equate to “adopted”.
I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Acts 1323 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his PROMISE raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
SEED = SPERMA, you know as in a man’s SPERM.
Anthony you speak nothing but complete lies against direct scripture, it is truly astonishing to see the level of your denial and then read your own reasoning you give through that denial.
The virgin birth was for a sign to the house of David, that God keeps His promise, that promise is the same promise you read in Acts 13.
The virgin birth was given as a SIGN, so that the house of David WOULD KNOW that David’s son of the fruit of his loins, who was to fulfill all of God’s promises written by the prophets, had been born.
The VIRGIN birth has absolutely NOTHING to do with, “heavenly-created ovum placed in Mary’s womb, which was then impregnated by the Spirit.”
Mary became pregnant with Joseph’s SPERM, through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, as the GENSIS of JESUS is said to come from Abraham, to David, to Joseph, where there were 14 generations, then 14 generations, then 14 more generations, ALL to keep God’s DIRECT word true, that Jesus would be begotten/from the stock of Abraham and David.
Hi Jodi
You said: You can create some theory about some special womb all you want. I am going to stick directly to scripture and believe what it says, Jesus is a HUMAN and his GENESIS comes from the stock of Abraham, David, and Joseph. GENESIS and Genea DO NOT equate to “adoption”. Likewise it is God Himself, by His wisdom, who distinguished how a human son is created, which according to God by His design, you need an egg with 23 chromosomes and a sperm with 23 chromosomes.
Me: well if your saying Joseph laid with Mary, it couldn’t have been David He dead in the grave, and He knows nothing, and won’t till the resurrection. I really think your the one creating some False teaching. And if you are going to try to convince me that God got the sperm from David it won’t work, David is dead. What I’m saying is truth and it doesn’t contradict other scriptures, what make you think Jesus Christ inherited sin) is that some kind of blasphemy? What makes the big difference if God got the sprem from David that is dead and brought to life David sprem or if God just created the sprem and His Spirit placed it there along with a ovum. That shouldn’t be that big of a job for God. I never will believe that two humans made Jesus Christ, that’s cult .
God bless 🙏 may God show you the Truth. The Holy Spirit show us the way, Jesus is the way, we need not that man teach us just a whole lot of help from God. He gives us a witness, in our mind, and give us confidence,He is the way maker. Praise Him!
God bless.
Anthony,
Matthew gives you the GENESIS of Jesus where it goes from Abraham to David and from David to Joseph, and then you are told Jesus is Genea of these men, which means begotten/of the stock of. Also as said you are told that Jesus is of the fruit of David’s loins, that he is an anthropos (human), that he is of the seed of Abraham.
This GENESIS of Jesus you are told occurred through the power of God’s Holy Spirit in the womb of virgin Mary. You are telling me Anthony, that it is unreasonable for God in His power, who created DNA, who invented human genes, that He cannot fertilize Mary’s egg so that His promise can be fulfilled, bringing forth a son of David and of Abraham?
FACTs,
God designed and created humans with genes of which get passed down from one generation to the next generation. We see long lineages being given quite a bit in the OT.
God designed and created humans to be able to produce more humans, in that design it takes chromosomes from a male combined with chromosomes from a female, of which those chromosomes hold the human’s genetic makeup.
The Messiah was to be a MAN an ADAM (HUMAN) and this MAN was to COME FROM Abraham, from Israel, from the tribe of Judah, from Jesse, from David, meaning genetically, of the SPERMA, the GENSIS, of the GENEA.
A sign was to be given for the HOUSE of David, so that they would know God keeps His promises, so that they could identify the Christ, the man that was going to sit on David’s throne and be a king and their savior.
Isaiah 7 tells us why the SIGN was given in the first place,
5 Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah’s son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6 “Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.” 7 Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “ ‘It will not take place, it will not happen,
WHY will it not happen? BECAUSE GOD PROMISED otherwise,
2 Samuel 7:12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Luke 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
Acts 13:2 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’ 23 “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.
Anthony CAN YOU DISCUSS these passages?
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