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Hi TimothyVI.
I will say that such evidence spoken of earlier in this discussion is that there is a God, not necessarily who that God is.
To ask about the evidence regarding who God is, I think that prophecy is one of the the strongest witnesses out there. Scripture told us that Israel would become a nation again and speak their native language. Never before had an ancient language been revived and used as a mainstream language. Yet more than 2000 years later these prophecies came to pass. There were many doubters pre-1948 regarding the nation of Israel being born in one day.
Israel is a great witness as to YHWH being God. He used this nation as a witness to himself. While the other nations worshipped other so-called gods, the Hebrews God delivered them time and time again with great signs and wonders to show that he indeed was the true God. This is actually the theme of the Old Testament. But did such things really happen? Well it happened in 1948 and again in the 6 day war, so that gives a witness that it probably happened back then too as it is written.
Israel continues to see miracles, the 20th century can testify to that. We even have video footage of these times, whereas more than 2000 years ago, we have books which was the technology of that day for recording events.
But what about outside of the nation of Israel? What other witnesses do we have that YHWH is the God that nature demands?
Well I look at my own life. The same God that delivers Israel is the same God that delivers me. In other words we have our testimony too. I know with my testimony that if I were to speak all of it, most here probably wouldn't believe it and would think that I was deluded. But I have seen with my eyes, I have seen things that are not comprehensible to the natural man, and with glory so powerful that I couldn't handle any greater than what I was shown.
I have my testimony and millions of others have their testimony that YHWH is the true God. But in all this, God works through faith. If you have no faith then you have nothing to see with. But even if you have little faith, that is enough.
Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,04:36) I have my testimony and millions of others have their testimony that YHWH is the true God.
Millions of Hindus have a testimony that Brahman is the one true god. Millions of Muslims have a testimony that Allah is the one true god. Millions of Africans have a testimony that their god is the one true one. Millions of Sikh have a testimony that Vāhigurū is the one true god.So is your testimony the truth? Don't forget that many millions of Christians — the majority — say Jesus is a god with his father and the spirit as a trinity. So their version of God does not match yours. Maybe there are indeed millions who believe in God in the way you do, maybe not. But the overwhelming majority of Christians believe in a triune deity, thus lessening the power of your testimony.
Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,21:36) I know with my testimony that if I were to speak all of it, most here probably wouldn't believe it and would think that I was deluded. But I have seen with my eyes, I have seen things that are not comprehensible to the natural man, and with glory so powerful that I couldn't handle any greater than what I was shown.
T8,I believe you here, yet I have likewise have had my own, as you phrase it, testimonies. I have seen things I doubt others would believe and felt directly what I thought was the touch of the divine and the peace it brought. Yet I still see things differently then you. Now you of course can claim I was deceived, wrong, mistaken, etc., and I can counter the same with you.
What it all boils down to is even though we may receive divine revelation, once we take it we view it through our all too human lens and what we relate then is our take or perception of what happened. It may be proof for self but not for others.
Think not that others who see things differently then you have no faith of their own or that your truth by definition denies their truth.
Does it not then come down to whether you have a robust method for determining truth, one that has some power to be objective about susceptibility to illusion?
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 06 2008,17:41) Quote (942767 @ May 06 2008,11:41) Hi Mandy: Perhaps it is because you failed to heed God's warning to you. Please refer to your post here:
Quote https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=Post;CODE=06;f=17;t=1625;p=80421
Hi bro,I don't even need to click on the link because that post has been thrown in my face so many times now that I cannot even count!
As a leader in the church (or potential leader) you better be sure to watch your words – they will come back to bite you! Have you ever been so sure the Lord is telling you something and then found out it was wrong, or maybe not exactly what you believed?
And this is how it goes when you let the “spirit lead”. Everyone who claims to be a Christian has the Spirit in them, bro. And everyone “feels led” by this same Spirit. No, I don't buy it. I've heard some Christians say that the “Spirit” was “leading” them in some pretty crazy directions. I have had folks say things like, “My spirit doesn't bear witness with your spirit.” Hogwash. It's not a good ruler to measure by because everyone is led by this so-called “Spirit of God” and everyone seems to be going in different directions!
I've studied. I've prayed. I've fasted. I've met with God at 3 a.m. in the morning. I've felt the annointing. I've received prophesies that have come true. I've been in leadership. I've dedicated my life to this stuff! I've wanted the truth so bad I would gouge-out my eye for it! So don't tell me that I don't have understanding because I didn't heed a warning that I supposedly thought I received from the Spirit.
Perhaps I don't have understanding because it's nonsense?
Hi Mandy:When I was born again, God revealed the truth to me at that time, and that is that He is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ is true.
You say that you were in leadership in the church at one time. Did you have knowledge of the truth at that time?
I have heard all of these statements about being “led by the Spirit” also, but God has shown me that to be led by the Spirit means that you are striving to obey the Word of God. But there are “gifts of the Spirit” such as “the gift of the word of knowledge” or “the word of wisdom”, and I was referring to the “word of knowledge” that you said that God had given you about Towshab, and that “that word of knowledge” was the truth. You warned us all of what he had come to do.
I am not an overseer here. I am here to learn. I have had to do some research and some praying when people like Kejohn asked some hard questions, and that is good. I cannot teach others if I don't know what I am talking about.
God has shown me where that will be, but He does things in His timing. I am anxious for this to happen so that people will believe what I am saying so that they can be saved.
I love you and want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.
Quote (942767 @ May 10 2008,09:51) When I was born again, God revealed the truth to me at that time, and that is that He is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ is true.
Hi CatoWhat was wrong with your first birth, the one where you emerged into the world, as we all do, with no religious belief, but with a fantastically active and growing human brain and all the potential that brings? How did you swallow the dogmas that there is something inherently wrong with you that requires you to go through other's 'salvation' rituals, including the insult to your heritage that requires your 'rebirth'? Putting aside the nature of the things you are convinced you observed that you take as evidence (for things unseen?), what is the difference between this cult behaviour and scientology, wicca, paganism etc?
This is not a calculated insult; I hope to make my question actually as subjective as I can!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 10 2008,17:53) Quote (942767 @ May 10 2008,09:51) When I was born again, God revealed the truth to me at that time, and that is that He is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus His Only Begotten Son and His Christ is true.
Hi CatoWhat was wrong with your first birth, the one where you emerged into the world, as we all do, with no religious belief, but with a fantastically active and growing human brain and all the potential that brings? How did you swallow the dogmas that there is something inherently wrong with you that requires you to go through other's 'salvation' rituals, including the insult to your heritage that requires your 'rebirth'? Putting aside the nature of the things you are convinced you observed that you take as evidence (for things unseen?), what is the difference between this cult behaviour and scientology, wicca, paganism etc?
This is not a calculated insult; I hope to make my question actually as subjective as I can!
Stuart
Hi Stu:You addressed this to Cato, but obviously, you meant to address this to me.
The biggest thing that was wrong with my first birth is that I did not have a personal relationship with God, and therefore, I could not receive instruction from Him as the Father of my spirit. There was a void in my life that only a personal relationship with Him could fill. Before this, I looked for fulfillment in the various thing that this world had to offer, especially, trying everything that man was saying about sex.
God created man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. The last man is that man whose spirit is perfected as he learns to apply the Word of God to his daily life.
This world is the refining fire where like Jesus we who are born again Christians live our lives not to please ourselves but to please God by obeying His Word that He may glorified in the earth so that others might be reconciled unto God. We live our lives in obedience to Him in spite of the insults or in spite of man saying that we are deluded or in spite anything else that man can say about us or do to to us. Jesus is our example.
Without the personal relationship that I enjoy, there is no real purpose to life. I find that the only way to be genuinely happy is through this personal relationship. I am happy to be just that person that God is making me to be.
As you indicate, potential of the human mind is amazing. Do you believe that this really happened through the process of evolution? Even by this alone, you should know that there has to be a higher power.
I don't know about the other “so called cults” to which you refer. I am speaking about a personal relationship with God through what He has done for me. I know what I teach is true whether or not you believe me. Ultimately, we are all responsible to God for what we believe and teach.
Hi 942767 (part 1)
Quote You addressed this to Cato, but obviously, you meant to address this to me.
My apologies for that. I was under the impression that I had quoted Cato, for some reason. Thank you for your reply.Quote The biggest thing that was wrong with my first birth is that I did not have a personal relationship with God, and therefore, I could not receive instruction from Him as the Father of my spirit. There was a void in my life that only a personal relationship with Him could fill.
OK, so if the void is a missing personal relationship with god, then I suppose a personal relationship with god IS the only thing that can fill it. I guess you will explain below why you would need such a thing so much as to insult your heritage by rejecting your first birth. I suppose it does tie in with Jesus’ supposed requirement for his followers to hate their families.Quote Before this, I looked for fulfillment in the various thing that this world had to offer, especially, trying everything that man was saying about sex.
So reason number one for this rebirth is to come to terms with sexuality? Don’t most (not all, but almost all) non-believers quite satisfactorily manage this transition without a god? What can a ‘born again’ do with regards to learning about human sexuality that a non-believer can’t?Quote God created man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. The last man is that man whose spirit is perfected as he learns to apply the Word of God to his daily life.
So if you were born in god’s image, are you not insulting him that you want to try and improve on that first birth he gave you?Quote This world is the refining fire where like Jesus we who are born again Christians live our lives not to please ourselves but to please God by obeying His Word that He may glorified in the earth so that others might be reconciled unto God.
Why are you motivated to do that? Why not please yourself, and help others to find happiness? Do you think there is some kind of romantic nobility in self-deprivation in the presbyterian manner? Isn’t it god’s job to manage his existence in a way that gives him enjoyment? I know he is not omnipotent, but the rest of us manage OK so why does he need slaves?Quote We live our lives in obedience to Him in spite of the insults or in spite of man saying that we are deluded or in spite anything else that man can say about us or do to to us. Jesus is our example.
Christians just love the self-pitying underdog label, don’t they. If you say absurd things people are justified in calling your pronouncements absurd. As I have said before, being ‘born again’ really looks to my cynical eye like an opportunity to spend the rest of one’s precious life in a suspended adolescence, telling everyone else that ’they just don’t understand’, and ‘one day you’ll be sorry’. Do you understand the feeling amongst non-believers that they would just like to shake such christians and tell them to grow up? Yes I feel better now!Stuart
Hi 942767 (part 2)
Quote Without the personal relationship that I enjoy, there is no real purpose to life.
Is that just more of the not-taking-responsibility thing? We all make our own meaning, even you who has chosen to live the way you do, because you did have the option of choosing meaning in the way others have. Yet you deny the choice you made and defer to someone with whom you have a relationship (which must involve you reading and talking to the air? All I know is relationships with real things). Would you commend someone who has chosen to live a life completely obeying, without question, the commands of another human with whom he had formed a ‘relationship’? I think you would call that dysfunctional, or slavery.Quote I find that the only way to be genuinely happy is through this personal relationship. I am happy to be just that person that God is making me to be.
I am sorry that you can only find happiness this way. Of course it is the ultimate in security blankets to put slavish faith in something that cannot be disproved. No risk, no loss. No gain either, mind you.Quote As you indicate, potential of the human mind is amazing. Do you believe that this really happened through the process of evolution?
Yes. Unquestionably and evidentially yes. There is simply no question that evolution by natural selection is the mechanism that resulted in human brains. There is no other theory and no other explanation that makes any sense.Even by this alone, you should know that there has to be a higher power.
Knowing what I know (and what you should know too) about our origins it is patently clear that if there is a creator it is certainly not the one described in Judeo-christian mythology.Quote I don't know about the other “so called cults” to which you refer. I am speaking about a personal relationship with God through what He has done for me.
Can you tell me one thing that god has unquestionably done for you, that could not possibly have been attained by a non-believer?Quote I know what I teach is true whether or not you believe me.
I know you are wrong. Me asserting that does not make me any more the truth teller than you.Quote Ultimately, we are all responsible to God for what we believe and teach.
You are responsible to your god concept because you choose that meaning for your life. You choose to insult your heritage and follow the command of a man whose existence is of dubious probity who was recorded years after as saying you should hate your family in order to follow him. You will understand that it is a choice that I would not make for myself because I love my family and other humans on this planet and would like to think that I have some credibility in claiming to be devoted to their well-being, not split in some two-way slavery arrangement.Am I being unfair?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 11 2008,14:29) Hi 942767 (part 1) Quote You addressed this to Cato, but obviously, you meant to address this to me.
My apologies for that. I was under the impression that I had quoted Cato, for some reason. Thank you for your reply.Quote The biggest thing that was wrong with my first birth is that I did not have a personal relationship with God, and therefore, I could not receive instruction from Him as the Father of my spirit. There was a void in my life that only a personal relationship with Him could fill.
OK, so if the void is a missing personal relationship with god, then I suppose a personal relationship with god IS the only thing that can fill it. I guess you will explain below why you would need such a thing so much as to insult your heritage by rejecting your first birth. I suppose it does tie in with Jesus’ supposed requirement for his followers to hate their families.Quote Before this, I looked for fulfillment in the various thing that this world had to offer, especially, trying everything that man was saying about sex.
So reason number one for this rebirth is to come to terms with sexuality? Don’t most (not all, but almost all) non-believers quite satisfactorily manage this transition without a god? What can a ‘born again’ do with regards to learning about human sexuality that a non-believer can’t?Quote God created man in His own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. The last man is that man whose spirit is perfected as he learns to apply the Word of God to his daily life.
So if you were born in god’s image, are you not insulting him that you want to try and improve on that first birth he gave you?Quote This world is the refining fire where like Jesus we who are born again Christians live our lives not to please ourselves but to please God by obeying His Word that He may glorified in the earth so that others might be reconciled unto God.
Why are you motivated to do that? Why not please yourself, and help others to find happiness? Do you think there is some kind of romantic nobility in self-deprivation in the presbyterian manner? Isn’t it god’s job to manage his existence in a way that gives him enjoyment? I know he is not omnipotent, but the rest of us manage OK so why does he need slaves?Quote We live our lives in obedience to Him in spite of the insults or in spite of man saying that we are deluded or in spite anything else that man can say about us or do to to us. Jesus is our example.
Christians just love the self-pitying underdog label, don’t they. If you say absurd things people are justified in calling your pronouncements absurd. As I have said before, being ‘born again’ really looks to my cynical eye like an opportunity to spend the rest of one’s precious life in a suspended adolescence, telling everyone else that ’they just don’t understand’, and ‘one day you’ll be sorry’. Do you understand the feeling amongst non-believers that they would just like to shake such christians and tell them to grow up? Yes I feel better now!Stuart
Hi Stu:I am glad that you feel better now. I have answered your questions to the best of my ability. Obviously, there is nothing that I can say that will convince you that I am telling you the truth.
I did, however, happen accross the following web-site that may be of interest to you.
Quote (942767 @ May 11 2008,15:00) I did, however, happen accross the following web-site that may be of interest to you.
Thanks for thinking of me, but why do you think I would be interested in pages of creationist lies? Are the lies told in an entertaining way?I suppose this from the front page: “Ed Davis climbed Mt. Ararat in 1943 and personally saw the Ark” is somwhat amusing. The rest looks pretty brainless. Is there a part in there that you think is of particular merit?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 11 2008,18:16) Quote (942767 @ May 11 2008,15:00) I did, however, happen accross the following web-site that may be of interest to you.
Thanks for thinking of me, but why do you think I would be interested in pages of creationist lies? Are the lies told in an entertaining way?I suppose this from the front page: “Ed Davis climbed Mt. Ararat in 1943 and personally saw the Ark” is somwhat amusing. The rest looks pretty brainless. Is there a part in there that you think is of particular merit?
Stuart
Hi Stu:Whether not they are lies or not I do not know, I'll let you decide that for yourself. I know what I am telling you about God and Jesus is not a lie, even if you think that I am lying.
I thought what Dr. Baugh stated relative to the human brain was pretty impressive. I don't know if what he stated was on this site or not. I heard a sermon by him here: http://www.nlcf.org/#. In this same sermon, he indicates that Jesus is God, and with that I disagree. If the information he has relative to the human brain is true, I don't know how anyone can think that happened through evolution.
I just thought that you would like to be aware of the site if you were not already.
http://www.talkorigins.org is a website that will offer you all the information you need about evolution. There is no need to just wonder, or give the argument from personal incredulity, when the truth of how we came to be the way we are by natural selection is far more straightforward and much more interesting. After all, the bible doesn't actually explain anything, does it.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 12 2008,07:15) http://www.talkorigins.org is a website that will offer you all the information you need about evolution. There is no need to just wonder, or give the argument from personal incredulity, when the truth of how we came to be the way we are by natural selection is far more straightforward and much more interesting. After all, the bible doesn't actually explain anything, does it. Stuart
Hi Stu:I'll take a look at this site. And yes, there are some things that I myself cannot give you an answer by what is written in the bible.
Hi Stu:
It is entirely possible that the days of the creation listed in Genesis 1 may not be literal 24 hour days.
Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. This does indicate when this beginning took place only that there was a beginning and that God created the heavens and the earth.
Quote Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.The foregoing scripture states:
Quote Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven There may have been cellular life in the waters from which God brought forth sea creatures and it says fowl also.
Quote (942767 @ May 12 2008,09:23) Hi Stu: It is entirely possible that the days of the creation listed in Genesis 1 may not be literal 24 hour days.
Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. This does indicate when this beginning took place only that there was a beginning and that God created the heavens and the earth.
Quote Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.The foregoing scripture states:
Quote Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven There may have been cellular life in the waters from which God brought forth sea creatures and it says fowl also.
Given many things seem to be 'entirely possible' in Genesis (I am thinking of David's apologia here as well), is it not entirely possible that the whole thing is mythology that did not actually happen?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 12 2008,18:56) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2008,09:23) Hi Stu: It is entirely possible that the days of the creation listed in Genesis 1 may not be literal 24 hour days.
Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. This does indicate when this beginning took place only that there was a beginning and that God created the heavens and the earth.
Quote Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.The foregoing scripture states:
Quote Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven There may have been cellular life in the waters from which God brought forth sea creatures and it says fowl also.
Given many things seem to be 'entirely possible' in Genesis (I am thinking of David's apologia here as well), is it not entirely possible that the whole thing is mythology that did not actually happen?Stuart
Hi Stu:No, it isn't a myth. Many times I have shared with you that I know without a doubt that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus is true.
That being said, Jesus states:
Quote Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.Quote Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Quote Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me And so, if Jesus referred to the creation of mankind, Noah's ark, and Moses, I know that these thing are true.
But as you say, there are many things that are hard to explain by what is written about these events in the bible. I have been reading some in the site to which you referred me, and I can see that there has been much study done relative to process of evolution by some brilliant men.
I'll continue to study, but because of things that I know to be a fact through personal experience, there is no way that anyone can convince me that man evolved from a chimpanzee or anything else. Notwithstanding, I am sure that there is much that can be learned from the study of evolution.
Of all of God's creatures, only mankind is capable of having a personal relationship with his creator.
94whatever
Quote I'll continue to study, but because of things that I know to be a fact through personal experience, there is no way that anyone can convince me that man evolved from a chimpanzee or anything else. Why bother continuing to study? You already know all the answers.
Stuart
Quote (942767 @ May 10 2008,09:51) You say that you were in leadership in the church at one time. Did you have knowledge of the truth at that time?
I most certainly thought that I did. I believe that I still hold to the majority of that truth. But obviously have given other ideas up.This has been the way of it for a lot of ministers that I have known through the years…. We all start out thinking we hold the truth in a box, and we sell that box for all we are worth!
A fundamentalist view of life tells you that you know everything because you have access to a special safety blanket in the sky that knows everything, and yet you are small and worthless. Others don't have such a miserably narrow and brutal view of humanity and do realise that there are limits to knowledge, but don't point blank deny the things we do know pretty well because of dogmatic adherence to mythology. It takes a special kind of psychology to display this level of blinkered doggedness, I think.
Stuart
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