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George: I tend to agree that was work climbing that mountain. But Abraham was declared righteous at the bottom of the hill. There is where it takes faith to connect to God. You can't be righteous by any works you do! Yet you can be righteous by faith in God and have no works! TK
You said…..[That was WORK, done BY faith]…..No, that was work done by a mans effort to climb up a mountain….his righteousness was by faith in God!
Quote (ftk @ Jan. 08 2012,01:35) George: I tend to agree that was work climbing that mountain. But Abraham was declared righteous at the bottom of the hill. There is where it takes faith to connect to God. You can't be righteous by any works you do! Yet you can be righteous by faith in God and have no works! TK You said…..[That was WORK, done BY faith]…..No, that was work done by a mans effort to climb up a mountain….his righteousness was by faith in God!
Hab 2:13 Behold, [is it] not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
Georg
An interesting bit about Abraham, that after God had accepted Abraham's faith, then God gave Abraham the sign of circumcision.
I believe that directly applies to this day. We pray to the Lord and tell Jesus that we believe in Him and want to follow and obey Him. And when He accepts that faith, then and only then does He come into us with His Holy Spirit….
In the beginning He is with us and He will be in us, if we continue in the faith….
Most people have been taught that you receive the Holy Ghost WHEN you believe… The TRUTH is you receive the Holy Ghost AFTER you believe and continue in the Lord.
God Bless
MarlinQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 06 2012,05:14) Quote (Marlin1 @ Jan. 05 2012,04:35) Brother Pierre, We are saved by the blood of God.
God Bless
Marlin
Hi Marlin, I wish to elaborate more on this point that you make.Science has surmised that the blood in the fetus is from the father.
“Jesus“(74), therefore had “God blood“(74) running through his veins.
This idea is confirmed in Acts 20:28, tracing it's origin back to Lev.11:17.Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar
to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the HolySpirit
hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own [God blood].2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us “The word”(HolySpirit) of reconciliation.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
(LINK to the thread THAT PROVES GOD’s EXISTENCE)
edjyou are not supplying any truth to this,God is spirit and so has no Blood,But Christ his son that existed in heaven as the “the Word of God” was the one that God send how he did it is anyone guess,
so stick with what you know from scriptures
Pierre
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 07 2012,22:54) Tim, Once again, works are a result of salvation, not, salvation a result of works.
Hi Wm,MANY OF US have been telling Tim this all important point
(myself, Pierre, TheodoreJ, and the list goes on),
but he seems to keep missing the point!
wanting to believe the opposite!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd: You can pop out little lies or part truths any time you want to, and you do, but it changes nothing. Jesus provide a “package” deal of a complete salvation for mankind in his relationship to God. Jesus provided the truth and the works and efforts to cleanse and make whole all mankind who would accept and believe his completed task for God.
Mankind according to the New Covenant has the opportunity to enter in to the perfection Jesus provided unto God, by faith, believing that what Jesus did cleansed man forever. Jesus provided all the necessities including lay down his life as a final sacrifice for sin forever. This package gift of salvation is given to “whosoever'' will accept and believe as truth for themselves unto God. In the salvation package is mans perfection unto God. Perfect union. No blemish. No sin. No darkness. Purified light forever……NOT BASED ON ONE THING ANY MAN BESIDE JESUS, HAS EVER DONE!!
Any man who feels he must add works or deeds or efforts or trying or obeying or doing….ANYTHING…to aid, help, or somehow make better or more complete ones perfection in God through Christ Jesus is a liar and deceiver!!
NO WORKS OR DEEDS BUY YOUR SALVATION UNTO GOD NOR DO THEY PUT AWAY YOUR SALVATION. MAN IS SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. This is what I know to be truth to me. TK
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 08 2012,19:53) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 07 2012,22:54) Tim, Once again, works are a result of salvation, not, salvation a result of works.
Hi Wm,MANY OF US have been telling Tim this all important point
(myself, Pierre, TheodoreJ, and the list goes on),
but he seems to keep missing the point!
wanting to believe the opposite!God bless
Ed JQuote (ftk @ Jan. 08 2012,21:00)
Ed: You can pop out little lies or part truths any time you want to, and you do, but it changes nothing.
Hi Tim,Is it not true that you keep telling us 'over and over' about working towards salvation?
Yet not one of us here at H-net ever told you that we believe this.
This point is TRUE, no matter if you claim it as a lie or part truth or anything else.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (ftk @ Jan. 08 2012,21:00) Ed: You can pop out little lies or part truths any time you want to, and you do, but it changes nothing. Jesus provide a “package” deal of a complete salvation for mankind in his relationship to God. Jesus provided the truth and the works and efforts to cleanse and make whole all mankind who would accept and believe his completed task for God. Mankind according to the New Covenant has the opportunity to enter in to the perfection Jesus provided unto God, by faith, believing that what Jesus did cleansed man forever. Jesus provided all the necessities including lay down his life as a final sacrifice for sin forever. This package gift of salvation is given to “whosoever'' will accept and believe as truth for themselves unto God. In the salvation package is mans perfection unto God. Perfect union. No blemish. No sin. No darkness. Purified light forever……NOT BASED ON ONE THING ANY MAN BESIDE JESUS, HAS EVER DONE!!
Any man who feels he must add works or deeds or efforts or trying or obeying or doing….ANYTHING…to aid, help, or somehow make better or more complete ones perfection in God through Christ Jesus is a liar and deceiver!!
NO WORKS OR DEEDS BUY YOUR SALVATION UNTO GOD NOR DO THEY PUT AWAY YOUR SALVATION. MAN IS SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. This is what I know to be truth to me. TK
Hi Tim,Here's the very proof (of what I say) in 'this post'.
(It is the large highlighted part at the bottom)NO-ONE here has ever said they believe this way?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd:
It would be great if what you are saying is true. The problem is you are actually saying that words and/or deeds do effect your salvation whether good or bad! You contradict yourself when you say there are righteous works or deeds. You contradict yourself the same way with sin. If there is still sin then Jesus didn't take away our sin.
Works or deeds do not produce righteousness, goodness or help connect one to God.Neither do works or deeds take away your righteousness because it is by faith not works or deeds! Works and/or deeds are individually man made efforts which have not one thing to do with salvation through Jesus. Righteousness is a part of salvation. Righteousness is by faith alone, in the salvation package bought and given by Jesus.
Its the same thing with “sin”! You say doing things/works/deeds/bad things is sin! You say there are good Christians and bad Christians. Or, do you? Is any Christian better than another? What would make one better than the other? I say you either believe your are in sin or don't believe you are in sin. No action can purify you unto God but believing Jesus. No action can separate you from God except not believing what Jesus say's we are. Christ made us what we are in God.What we do or not do on this earth is not a gauge of Godliness! There is no gauge or judgment…or line to follow.
I believe religion has lied to us over the years. There is nothing left to do for perfection unto God, just believe Jesus. Jesus did it all and gave it to us with freedom. TK
Quote (ftk @ Jan. 09 2012,01:04) Ed: (1)It would be great if what you are saying is true. (2)The problem is you are actually saying that words and/or deeds do effect your salvation whether good or bad! (3)You contradict yourself when you say there are righteous works or deeds. (4)You contradict yourself the same way with sin. (5)If there is still sin then Jesus didn't take away our sin.
(6)Works or deeds do not produce righteousness, goodness or help connect one to God.Neither do works or deeds take away your righteousness because it is by faith not works or deeds! Works and/or deeds are individually man made efforts which have not one thing to do with salvation through Jesus. Righteousness is a part of salvation. Righteousness is by faith alone, in the salvation package bought and given by Jesus.
(7)Its the same thing with “sin”! You say doing things/works/deeds/bad things is sin! You say there are good Christians and bad Christians. Or, do you? Is any Christian better than another? What would make one better than the other? I say you either believe your are in sin or don't believe you are in sin. No action can purify you unto God but believing Jesus. No action can separate you from God except not believing what Jesus say's we are. Christ made us what we are in God.What we do or not do on this earth is not a gauge of Godliness! There is no gauge or judgment…or line to follow.
I believe religion has lied to us over the years. There is nothing left to do for perfection unto God, just believe Jesus. Jesus did it all and gave it to us with freedom. TK
Hi Tim,I will break it down for you once again, perhaps you may get it? …but then again, perhaps not?
1) Thank you, it is!
2) NO, now pay attention here: Works affect your rewards or punishments.
3) How so?
4) Please explain?
5) Sinful acts 'can' be reintroduced, has this somehow slipped your mind?
6) Spin, spin, and more spin.
7) Still more spin.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Tim,
There you go again: only understanding
by the spin that you put to what others say.Both you and Mark (Mikeangel) do this continually,
that is why we have trouble conversing with you both here.
Because neither of you pay attention to what others say to you!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgtk
Quote I believe religion has lied to us over the years. There is nothing left to do for perfection unto God, just believe Jesus. Jesus did it all and gave it to us with freedom. TK what is a new heaven ? what is a new earth ?? is that some thing in your head or is it real so that on earth there is no more dead ,sickness,pain,and everlasting live is their for everyone who as been judged and approved by God ,
if the above is real then you are unreal,and I believe that it is real to scriptures,
Pierre
Quote (Marlin1 @ Dec. 19 2011,15:29) Journey42 & Georg, I take it from above that you both believe that the 144,000 are the bride? Do I have that correct?
Marlin
Hi marlin1.No ; the 144000 they are the FIRST FRIUTS OF THE RESURECTION.They will be resurected first,then the rest; only after they have made the right decision,by rejecting the mark of the beast,but they will go trough the fire of persecution by the beast(false prophet as their king).
The bride of christ is holy jerusalem,coming down from HEAVEN.rev 21.The new jerusalem.The new perfect city.
This will only happen after the earth is melted and a new earth created.The heavens also will be renewed(sun,moon, planets,the solar system)Then God himself will come down to earth,and dwell amongst us and we will see him face to face.rev.22:4.
God bless.
wakeup.
Quote (Marlin1 @ Dec. 22 2011,14:46) Wakeup, I agree with some of what you wrote, Tell me, who are they that are spoke of in 1 Thes 4:15-17
Who will raise?
Which Resurrection 1 or 2?
Who are they that are still alive and will be changed in a split second of time?Marlin
Hi Marlin1.Good honest question.
Dont forget that 1thess 15–17, is not describing the resurections in detail; It was just the overall.(the summing up)
We know that there is the first fruits,the first that will meet the Lord in the air; then all the dead in christ;they that died in christ in time past,and they that have been killed by the beast,because of refusing the mark; but there will be some that are in prison,but still alive,they also will be changed in a twinkling, and meet the Lord in the air.There is a gap between the resurection of the first fruits and the resurection of the ones that have gone through the tribulation and persecution.It is just a matter of +and-3 1/2 yrs.
All that is the first resurection:
The second resurection happens after the 1000yrs; after satan and his followers(gog and magog)are cast into the lake of fire.
The second resurection consist of ALLTHE DEAD;PAST,PRESENT, AND FUTURE; ALL TYPES OF RELIGIONS.They will be judged by the books.according to their works.rev.20.
God bless.
wakeup.
Brother ftk,
Quote ACTS 14:22 † ……………, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Quote ROMANS 5:3 † And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 † And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 † And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.Quote I THES 3:4 † For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. Do you believe that all Christians will be tempted and suffer tribulation?
Quote JAMES 2:17 † Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 † Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 † Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 † But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?Does that mean that devils are saved too, they know who Christ is, they believe?
Do you believe that faith will produce works?
Quote JOHN 14:23 † Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 † He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.Some of Jesus Words, Lustfully look at a woman, Do not swear, Love thy neighbor as thyself.
What did Jesus mean, when He said 'he will keep my Words'?Quote ROMANS 9:20 † Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 † Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 † What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 † And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,Doesn't this mean that all will not be saved.
You talk a lot about faith, as if we could have the right kind of faith. what did God say.
Quote ROMANS 12:3 † For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. So it is not our faith is it, for if we have faith as small as a mustard seed, we could say to the mountain move and it would obey.
You say we should trust in the finished work of Christ and I totally agree. I also believe that to truly trust in the finished work of Christ requires His Spirit in us. And if His Spirit is in us then we will do our very best to live right and do right and love our neighbor. And you see, that is WORKS, not our works, but His Works that lives in us.
God Bless
MarlinQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 09 2012,13:05) Quote (Marlin1 @ Dec. 22 2011,14:46) Wakeup, I agree with some of what you wrote, Tell me, who are they that are spoke of in 1 Thes 4:15-17
Who will raise?
Which Resurrection 1 or 2?
Who are they that are still alive and will be changed in a split second of time?Marlin
Hi Marlin1.Good honest question.
Dont forget that 1thess 15–17, is not describing the resurections in detail; It was just the overall.(the summing up)
We know that there is the first fruits,the first that will meet the Lord in the air; then all the dead in christ;they that died in christ in time past,and they that have been killed by the beast,because of refusing the mark; but there will be some that are in prison,but still alive,they also will be changed in a twinkling, and meet the Lord in the air.There is a gap between the resurection of the first fruits and the resurection of the ones that have gone through the tribulation and persecution.It is just a matter of +and-3 1/2 yrs.
All that is the first resurection:
The second resurection happens after the 1000yrs; after satan and his followers(gog and magog)are cast into the lake of fire.
The second resurection consist of ALLTHE DEAD;PAST,PRESENT, AND FUTURE; ALL TYPES OF RELIGIONS.They will be judged by the books.according to their works.rev.20.
God bless.
wakeup.
Hi WakeupCan you please explain this part a little more,
There is a gap between the resurection of the first fruits and the resurection of the ones that have gone through the tribulation and persecution.It is just a matter of +and-3 1/2 yrs.
Brother Wakeup,
you said,
Quote Dont forget that 1thess 15–17, is not describing the resurections in detail; It was just the overall.(the summing up)
We know that there is the first fruits,the first that will meet the Lord in the air; then all the dead in christ;they that died in christ in time past,and they that have been killed by the beast,because of refusing the mark; but there will be some that are in prison,but still alive,they also will be changed in a twinkling, and meet the Lord in the air.Are you saying here that those in Christ, both past dead and alive will be raise together?
You said,
Quote There is a gap between the resurection of the first fruits and the resurection of the ones that have gone through the tribulation and persecution.It is just a matter of +and-3 1/2 yrs. Now are you saying there is another resurrection of the dead?
God Bless
MarlinQuote (Wakeup @ Jan. 09 2012,19:18) Quote (Marlin1 @ Dec. 19 2011,15:29) Journey42 & Georg, I take it from above that you both believe that the 144,000 are the bride? Do I have that correct?
Marlin
Hi marlin1.No ; the 144000 they are the FIRST FRIUTS OF THE RESURECTION.They will be resurected first,then the rest; only after they have made the right decision,by rejecting the mark of the beast,but they will go trough the fire of persecution by the beast(false prophet as their king).
The bride of christ is holy jerusalem,coming down from HEAVEN.rev 21.The new jerusalem.The new perfect city.
This will only happen after the earth is melted and a new earth created.The heavens also will be renewed(sun,moon, planets,the solar system)Then God himself will come down to earth,and dwell amongst us and we will see him face to face.rev.22:4.
God bless.
wakeup.
wakeupsorry but J42 and Georg are right the first fruits are the ones that wen their number is complete will become the bride of Christ ,and so be the new Jerusalem,that is the promise that Christ told his apostles,that they will be with him at his table,and the full number is 144000 redeemed
Pierre
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 09 2012,12:18) Quote (Marlin1 @ Dec. 19 2011,15:29) Journey42 & Georg, I take it from above that you both believe that the 144,000 are the bride? Do I have that correct?
Marlin
Hi marlin1.No ; the 144000 they are the FIRST FRIUTS OF THE RESURECTION.They will be resurected first,then the rest; only after they have made the right decision,by rejecting the mark of the beast,but they will go trough the fire of persecution by the beast(false prophet as their king).
The bride of christ is holy jerusalem,coming down from HEAVEN.rev 21.The new jerusalem.The new perfect city.
This will only happen after the earth is melted and a new earth created.The heavens also will be renewed(sun,moon, planets,the solar system)Then God himself will come down to earth,and dwell amongst us and we will see him face to face.rev.22:4.
God bless.
wakeup.
Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.They are the adopted sons of God; an adopted son will take on the name of the Father (man) who adopted him; they will rule as kings with Christ.
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
These are all the rest of the saints, from all nations, they have “all” come out of “great” tribulation; they will serve as “priests”. These are “ALL” the saints that will come up in the first resurrection. They make up the bride of Christ.
2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
Ecc 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Where do you read about the second 1000 years?
What will Christ do in the first 1000 years?
“””The heavens also will be renewed(sun,moon, planets,the solar system)”””
Is this a scene from Stephen Spielberg's new movie?Just what is your purpose of coming up with these wild stories?
Georg
Ed: I knew there was a key misunderstanding that placed a barrier between your doctrines and mine. You said…..2) NO, now pay attention here: Works affect your rewards or punishments.!!……FOR ME THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS PERFORMANCE BY MAN FOR EITHER PUNISHMENTS OR REWARDS!!
For me that would be self-created religion to attempt to appease or please God. Mankind has always been sons of God. Man is the great creation of God. The prophet said,….what is man that thou are mindful of him?….for thou hast made him a little lower than…”elohim''… and has crowned him with glory and honour…thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands and put all things under his feet….Psalms8;4!!
Man is created from love. What kind of shallow thinking would conjure up ideas that Sons of God would get rewards for being sons of God! TOTAL RELIGIOUS BULS__T! That ridiculous! It is the nature of a Son of God to love and be loved. Man has only been diluted in his thinking as to what he is and always was. Man was in mental darkness/wrong thinking with a powerful mind that would create for him any situation and circumstances necessary to live the life the mind was creating.
And punishment…comon man…think a little! Do you think sons of God will be put in hell for stealing a sandwich to eat? How about for their family? What if you steal a car…is it worse punishment…like the lake of fire or what else. What can be greater torture than fire for suffering. And its eternal torture forever! I think I passed that childish mentality about 30years ago!
The necessity of mans salvation was that man lost God in his mind. Sin and death thinking were dominating the mind of man as he moved further and further away from God in his mind. Creating sins or reasons in his mind of why God is unhappy with him and angry with him. Man became so steeped in religion he could not find the truth of God. There was no man on earth that had the pure truth and could back it up with sign and wonders. So, Jesus came with the truth. Showing mankind the way to the Father. By faith! Believing is the unseen connection of the heart/mind of God/Man! The return of God/Man came with the truth of Jesus. THOSE WHO WERE ABLE TO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE…RETURNED TO GOD….THOSE WHO WERE DUPED BY RELIGION WITH RITUALS, NEW MOONS, SABBATHS, RULES, LAWS, WORKS TO BE GOOD OR WORKS THAT MAKE ONE BAD!
Your cleanliness and purity and total salvation…. provided by Jesus…..pertaining to your salvation unto God has nothing whatsoever to do with your works, performance, deeds, efforts, attempts or anything of any kind. Anything you even think might improve your position in God can effect your faith.
You come to God and connect to God by faith in what Jesus did and gave to us! ONLY!If you think or reason just a little you could see that whatever is in your power to perform is from you. Whatever is totally in Gods power or Jesus power….only they could do and apart from you!!
Works or deeds do not produce righteousness, goodness or even help connect one to God. If they did it would mean they earned their righteousness by effort. Neither do works or deeds take away your righteousness because it is by faith not works or deeds! Works and/or deeds are individually man made efforts which have not one thing to do with salvation through Jesus. Righteousness is a part of salvation. Righteousness is by faith alone, in the salvation package bought and given by Jesus.
You can call it your cute little word “spin” if you want to but I think you recognize the truth even if it doesn't fit all doctrines! TK
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