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TT,
How can you be saying against me. I am congratulating you.
I know it is not something that happens a lot to you (The praise of men is like a foreign woman to you – not quite sure how to receive it/her)
You spoke a truth – did I not say that we should acknowledge truth – even from our adversaries?
How is what I said saying anything about the “Ceasing to Exist”?
This is what I warned: the game of “Yes, no” – do you understand what it is?
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 04 2010,00:36) TT, How can you be saying against me. I am congratulating you.
I know it is not something that happens a lot to you (The praise of men is like a foreign woman to you – not quite sure how to receive it/her)
You spoke a truth – did I not say that we should acknowledge truth – even from our adversaries?
How is what I said saying anything about the “Ceasing to Exist”?
This is what I warned: the game of “Yes, no” – do you understand what it is?
JA,Since when is the belief in the substitutionary death of Christ exclusively anti-trinitarian? In fact, a little research of this forum will show that it is anti-trinitarians who stumble because of this truth.
You were being sarcastic for sure.
thinker
TT wrote concerning Jesus in the grave:
Quote His spirit left His body. Then it went down to hades (the abyss according to Paul, Rom. 10:7). Then He ascended from the abyss on the third day. His consciuos life was uninterrupted the whole time.
TT,
Did not Jesus' spirit go 'up' to God: “Into thy hands I commit my Spirit”.
Was God then in the abyss.Further, (typical…) Romans 10:7 is part of a longer verse that when taken at it's length reads other than what you try to make it out to be:
Quote
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring
Christ down from above)
7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will
be saved.The extract is concerning the seeking of righteousness:
Is Verse 6 (which you slyly avoided quoting!) claiming that Jesus was in Heaven
Is Verse 7 claiming that Jesus was in the abyss
Was jesus BOTH in Heaven And in the Abyss?Verses 6 and 7 are sying things NOT to do.
Verse 8 and 9 say what we ARE supposed to do: “…confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,[and] you will be saved.
How do you pick Romans 10… to quote as proof of Jesus 'being in the abyss when this clearly alludes to nothing of the kind.
“Do not seek righteousness from Christ in Heaven nor in Hell because it it right here with you now in what we preach”
“What is heaven or hell are you talking about”?Georg said:
Quote So then after he died God forgave him his sins and resurrected him in his human body, is that the way you see it? I said that Jesus bore OUR sins. He had no sin of His own. You twist my words as you do the words of God.
thinker
JustAskin said:
Quote Did not Jesus' spirit go 'up' to God: “Into thy hands I commit my Spirit”.
Jesus did not say he was going to God. He committed His spirit to God's will (hand).If He went up to God then how is it that you say that He “ceased to exist?” You guys like to confuse everything. Paul said that Jesus was raised up from the ABYSS (Rom. 10:7)
The abyss is where the devil was cast, or will be cast if you are a futurist.
1And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
3and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.Young's Literal Translation
Again, Jesus simply said, “To your WILL (hand) I commend my spirit.” The statement has no reference to where Jesus went.
JA:
Quote Verses 6 and 7 are sying things NOT to do.
Paul explained what he meant:7or, `Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up. Young's Literal Translation
The “that is” is the explanation.
You don't need to keep pointing out that God raised Him from among the dead. Trinitarians do not take issue with that. But Peter said that God raised Him from the dead “BECAUSE” it was not possible that death should hold Him.
Death had no power over Him. He subjected Himself to it and had full power over it.
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 03 2010,08:36) TT, How can you be saying against me. I am congratulating you.
I know it is not something that happens a lot to you (The praise of men is like a foreign woman to you – not quite sure how to receive it/her)
You spoke a truth – did I not say that we should acknowledge truth – even from our adversaries?
How is what I said saying anything about the “Ceasing to Exist”?
This is what I warned: the game of “Yes, no” – do you understand what it is?
Hi AllThis is the normal response when someone cannot answer a point.
Attacking, Patronizing, accusing, slandering remarks.
Is this the Spirit of a true believer in Christ?
WJ
Wow – you guys are amazing.
I complement TT and i get slated. Guess you guys just not used to it.
Sarcasticly delivered – maybe – a complement is a complement. And it was well meant.Have I not said that we should acknowledge truth? So I add: dispute wrong – acknowledge truth.
Lighten up guys.
Oh and WJ,
When have I run away from a question? I let you off the hook.
One question sprouts two more, those two sprout another two – unless some things are dropped tangential numbers of questions result.
Even when I ask for a truce on an unresolveble point TT claims that this is running away. What are you after TT – Blood? Do you not understnd rules of engagement – and rules of DIS-Engagement?
TT,
You cannot read. Romans 10:7 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus was raised from the abyss.
you wrote:
Quote Jesus did not say he was going to God. He committed His spirit to God's will (hand). If He went up to God then how is it that you say that He “ceased to exist?” You guys like to confuse everything. Paul said that Jesus was raised up from the ABYSS (Rom. 10:7)
The abyss is where the devil was cast, or will be cast if you are a futurist.
When did I say that Jesus 'ceased to exist” – search the forum and find me a quote where I said that. “You guys” – yeah – talk to who ya talkin' to – it's easy to pick-and-mix!
And you are saying that Jesus went down to the abyss: For what reason – you already going on about the Rich man – Why would Jesus go to the abyss – did he do wrong.
What did the poor man do to gain comfort in the bosom of Abraham – any more than Jesus.Clearly mix metaphors – nut you insist that Jonah in the belly of the great fish crying out to his God(?) was directly the same as jesus in the grave. Since when did Jesus cry out from the grave
– Jonah did not die – Jesus did?
-Jesus' spirit went UP to God – into the hands of God almighty(I did not and have never said that he ceased to exist – am I mad – you try to make me something you want to make me – sly one!)My stance is that all spirit is from God and returns to God at death. It is the Soul that dies.
Spirit cannot ordinarily be destroyed – All spirits belongs to God Almighty but the wicked spirits will be destroyed at the end of time – you know I wirte that before.Romans 10:7 was not even talking about what you talking about – you just hijacked that verse from amongst its brothers and sisters – you begot it – for you own abyss – er – I meant 'Abuse'. It means don't look for Righteousness is Heaven or Hell – it is right here amongst you by the words that we preach.
JustAskin said:
Quote You cannot read. Romans 10:7 DOES NOT SAY that Jesus was raised from the abyss.
JA,Look at it again Bub! Paul said that men should not aspire to accomplish salvation by bringing Christ up from the abyss. God raised Him up from the abyss! The abyss was the “deep parts of the earth” where the departed spirits went. Paul said that Christ descended into the deeps parts of the earth.
Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:9
Before He ascended into heaven He first went down to the “lower parts of the earth” (the abyss or hades). His resurrection was from hades which is called “the deep” or “sheol” in the old testament.
He was in the lower parts of the earth BEFORE He ascended into heaven. This was during the three days. Jesus Himself said so:
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the HEART of the earth. Matthew 12:40
See Strong's# 2588. Christ was in the “middle” of the earth. This cannot be a reference to the tomb where His body laid. The tomb was not in the “middle” of the earth.
Peter CLEARLY said that Christ's soul would not be left in “sheol” (the deep, abyss, hades).
JA:
Quote And you are saying that Jesus went down to the abyss: For what reason – you already going on about the Rich man – Why would Jesus go to the abyss – did he do wrong.
Peter said that He preached to the spirits in prison.JA:
Quote Clearly mix metaphors – nut you insist that Jonah in the belly of the great fish crying out to his God(?) was directly the same as Jesus in the grave. Since when did Jesus cry out from the grave
I never said that Jonah's being in the belly of the fish was “exactly the same.” I simply pointed out that Jesus said that His death was likened to Jonah's being in the belly of the fish. Neither did I say that Jesus cried out like Jonah. I was simply trying to show that the crying out meant that Jonah was ALIVE in the fish. So if Jesus' being in the heart of the earth was like Jonah's being in the fish, then Jesus was ALIVE in the earth like Jonah was ALIVE in the fish. That is all I was trying to say.JA:
Quote -Jesus' spirit went UP to God – into the hands of God almighty(I did not and have never said that he ceased to exist –
Jesus did NOT say that His spirit went up to God. He said, “Into your HANDS I commit my spirit.” It meant ONLY that He had yielded His spirit to the WILL OF GOD.He told the thief, “TODAY you shall be with me in paradise.” Paradise meant “the garden” and it was that section of hades where the spirits of the righteous went. The spirits of wicked men went to that section called “the pit.”
Again, Jesus said to the thief that he would be with Him in “the garden” (paradise). Jesus did not go up to God and neither did He say He went up to God. He simply said, “To your hands (or will) I commit my spirit.”
JA:
Quote I did not and have never said that he ceased to exist
Okay I will take your word for it. But when I denied that Jesus “ceased to exist” you accused me of saying that Christ “pretended” to be dead. What's going on?JA:
Quote My stance is that all spirit is from God and returns to God at death. It is the Soul that dies.
The soul and the spirit are the same thing and are used interchangeably.JA:
Quote Romans 10:7 was not even talking about what you talking about – you just hijacked that verse from amongst its brothers and sisters – you begot it – for you own abyss – er – I meant 'Abuse'. It means don't look for Righteousness is Heaven or Hell – it is right here amongst you by the words that we preach.
Paul was saying that salvation has been completed because God raised Christ out of the abyss from among the dead. Men could not bring Christ up from the abyss. God did that!Albert Barnes on Romans 10:7:
The word abyss here, therefore, answers to hades, or the dark regions of departed spirits, Commmentary on Romans, p. 231
Did you get that? The abyss was the “dark regions of the departed spirits.” God raised Jesus up from the abyss.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2010,01:08) Georg said: Quote So then after he died God forgave him his sins and resurrected him in his human body, is that the way you see it? I said that Jesus bore OUR sins. He had no sin of His own. You twist my words as you do the words of God.
thinker
thinkerI know Jesus had no sin of his own, but, by bearing our sins he became sin for us. He took on our sins, that freed us from our sins, but what about Jesus, how did he get rid of the sins to be bodily resurrected? Does not Paul say, “the wages of sin is death?”
That's what I want to know from you. I don't twist anybody's words, especially God's words I only quote them; is accusing me of doing that your way of avoiding my question?Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 04 2010,08:51) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2010,01:08) Georg said: Quote So then after he died God forgave him his sins and resurrected him in his human body, is that the way you see it? I said that Jesus bore OUR sins. He had no sin of His own. You twist my words as you do the words of God.
thinker
thinkerI know Jesus had no sin of his own, but, by bearing our sins he became sin for us. He took on our sins, that freed us from our sins, but what about Jesus, how did he get rid of the sins to be bodily resurrected? Does not Paul say, “the wages of sin is death?”
That's what I want to know from you. I don't twist anybody's words, especially God's words I only quote them; is accusing me of doing that your way of avoiding my question?Georg
For thinker againQuote Sheer nonsense! The scripture does NOT teach that “death” means to “cease to exist.” The Jesus that came forth from hades and from the tomb is the EXACT SAME Jesus who was born of Mary and who suffered and died and who bore our sins. A newly, re-created Jesus did not bear our sins. IT WAS THE HISTORICAL JESUS WHO BORE OUR SINS. A newly created Jesus is not the Historical Jesus! It's that simple! A soul that “ceases to exist” cannot rise. And a newly created soul is not the same soul that died. Jesus died but He did not cease to exist. Death does not mean “cease to exist.”
Thinker, you have to start injecting some Bible thoughts into your philosophy, to at least give the appearance of something scriptural.
Thinker, you do know that you are not “the exact same you” that existed a few years ago, or even a few weeks ago.
I had always thought that Jesus gave up his life as a ransom sacrifice for us. I didn't know he took it back. What effect would that have on the ransom? (A ransom is a price paid to buy something back.)
Quote So my points stand unanswered and unrefuted: If Jesus “ceased to exist,” then who took over during the three days? And after the three days it must have been another “Son” who picked up where the first Son who “ceased to exist” left off. First, your points do not stand.
Your first point is based on assumptions and many of them and none of which you have any way of knowing. I could easily tie a boatload of assumptions together to come up with the opposite conclusion.
“Who took over for those 3 days?”
Well, The Father didn't die, the Son did. Someone had to resurrect the Son. If the Son resurrected himself, then in what sense was he dead? And if he didn't actually give up his life, then how was the Ransom paid?
As for recreating a persons life with their memories intact and discussing whether that person who has the exact same memories is indeed the same person….it's more of a discussion on philosophy and paradox then for the Bible.
Might I recommend: “There are Two errors in the the Title of this book.”*
I think it has a chapter on the idea of replacing one piece of a boat at a time and wondering if what you have at the end is the same boat.
*It is a great book. Of course the first error is that there are 2 “the's.” It's the second error that will hurt your head for a very very long time.
David said:
Quote Well, The Father didn't die, the Son did. Someone had to resurrect the Son. If the Son resurrected himself, then in what sense was he dead? And if he didn't actually give up his life, then how was the Ransom paid?
David,See the thread I started “Did Jesus raise Himself from the dead?” In that thread I discuss the sense inwhich Jesus died. Your point about “Ransom” is not valid. It is the blood ALONE that paid the ransom.
David:
Quote As for recreating a persons life with their memories intact and discussing whether that person who has the exact same memories is indeed the same person….it's more of a discussion on philosophy and paradox then for the Bible.
The Bible EXPLICTILY declares that the Jesus who bodily appeared after the resurrection was the SAME Jesus who was crucified. Even if memories could be re-created history cannot be recreated. The Jesus who was crucified was the historical Jesus. If the historical Jesus “ceased to exist,” then the Jesus who appeared after the resurrection was not the historical Jesus. A “re-created memory” cannot make Him the historical Jesus. This freak Jesus you speak of would have the memory of suffering without having actually suffered.This is altogether foolishness!
David:
Quote Might I recommend: “There are Two errors in the the Title of this book.”* I think it has a chapter on the idea of replacing one piece of a boat at a time and wondering if what you have at the end is the same boat.
*It is a great book. Of course the first error is that there are 2 “the's.” It's the second error that will hurt your head for a very very long time
I am interested only in the biblical and the historical facts.thinker
David:
Quote Thinker, you do know that you are not “the exact same you” that existed a few years ago, or even a few weeks ago.
I used to be a member of an infamous Chicago street gang back in the 1960's. I am not the same person I was back then.But I still have both the memories and the scars in my body from gangbanging. I did not mystically and magically lose my history. I am indeed the SAME person historically.
The Jesus who appeared after the resurrection was the SAME Jesus who suffered in history. He did not “cease to exist.”
David:
Quote I had always thought that Jesus gave up his life as a ransom sacrifice for us. I didn't know he took it back. What effect would that have on the ransom? (A ransom is a price paid to buy something back.)
You should have known that He took His life back again. He explicitly said that He would take His life back by the COMMANDMENT of the Father:“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
David:
Quote What effect would that have on the ransom? (A ransom is a price paid to buy something back.)
It is the blood that paid the ransom and not the death.These days you appear to be more of a philosopher than a student of biblical theology.
thinker
Hi TT,
You have no scriptural basis and rely on greek logic so why would you call others philosophers?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2010,05:34) Hi TT,
You have no scriptural basis and rely on greek logic so why would you call others philosophers?
Nick,So you reject that John 10:17-18 is scripture? Are you saying that you believe that the Jesus who appeared after the resurrection is not the SAME Jesus that was crucified?
thinker
TT
so the scriptures lie ,the person who as written that part in scriptures is lying ,or Christ is lying wen he says he give his live up,this means dead no ??“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2010,07:40) TT so the scriptures lie ,the person who as written that part in scriptures is lying ,or Christ is lying wen he says he give his live up,this means dead no ??“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again
t,We have already been over these things and I will not repeat them to you. How can Jesus take up His life again if “dead” means what you say it means?
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
thinker
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