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Wow Nick,
That IS fascinating!
John 5.18: For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making Himself equal with God. (emphasis mine)
John said the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He made himself EQUAL with God by calling God His Father!
Here John proves that to be the case:
John 10.33: “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
To the Jews and apostles the claim to be the “Son of God” was one of equality with the Father.
Do you say this is not true? Should we believe you or the bible, the inspired word of God?
All the other scriptures and Christ's quotes that prove His equality you still deny?
Are we to jump on this ship of misunderstanding with you?
Hi FYI,
Do you agree with the accusers of Jesus Christ? That is what those who would stone him said. Would you have picked up stones too?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2005,23:42) Hi FYI,
Do you agree with the accusers of Jesus Christ? That is what those who would stone him said. Would you have picked up stones too?
I believe John:John 5.18: For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2005,23:42) Hi FYI,
Do you agree with the accusers of Jesus Christ? That is what those who would stone him said. Would you have picked up stones too?
Nick,I rejoice in His equality – your the one with the stones in hand.
The Pharisees were NOT unlearned men – they and Jesus's Disciples KNEW Jesus was claiming EQUALITY – The Pharisees did not believe, the Disciples did, as well as the rest of the TRUE Christian Church.
————————
Where did you learn this stuff? (it wasn't from the Spirit of God!)
Did you learn it from a man? From someone here on Heaven Net?
Did you espouse this doctrine 'cause it “made sense”? Were you once a JW?
HI FYI,
I certainly did not learn it from the Pharisees or the Sadducees or other fools whose words are faithfully recorded in the Word or God. Surely you do not either?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2005,00:10) HI FYI,
I certainly did not learn it from the Pharisees or the Sadducees or other fools whose words are faithfully recorded in the Word or God. Surely you do not either?
C'mon Nick,Where did you learn this stuff?
Did you learn it from a man? From someone here on Heaven Net?
Did you espouse this doctrine 'cause it “made sense”? Were you once a JW?
Did you get it from JW?
Here's some of their history:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2005,00:22) Hi FYI,
The bible.
Let's test that. The Christian bible does NOT deny the incarnation or the deity, neither does the “true” Christian.The reason is scripture, and lots of it:
“I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.” Isaiah 42:8
Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
—————–
I know you will claim He is JUST the “image” of the Father – but that is the point – He is the Glory of God – the brightness of His image – the Glory of God
That Glory is NOT given to another because another is not EQUAL with God
False religions make “images” to worship – God gave us His Son – His Image – His glory to behold and worship:
John 5:23 – That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Because Christ is YHWH our redeemer who was pierced, for Christ is the visible portion of the invisible God:
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:24 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (YHWH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 47:4 – As for our redeemer, the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:17 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 49:7 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD (YHWH) that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 54:5 – For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Isaiah 54:8 – In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD (YHWH) thy Redeemer.
Isaiah 59:20 – And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD (YHWH).
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 63:16 – Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD (YHWH), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Jeremiah 50:34 – Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
Isaiah 43:3 – For I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isaiah 43:11 – I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15 – Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 – Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Hosea 13:4 – Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
——————————-
His claims to pre-existence:
1) Jesus claimed the have been pre-existent before his birth–he was around before Abraham (Jn 8.58-59)
2) Jesus claimed to have been pre-existent in heaven with glory before His incarnation (Jn 3.13; Jn 6.33; Jn 6.38; Jn 6.62; Jn 8.23; Jn 8.42; Jn 10.30-39; Jn 16.28; Jn 17.5)His claims relative to worship, glorification, exaltation, object of religious faith, title of “God”:
1) Jesus promised to come in 'the glory of the Father' (Mark 8.38)
2) Jesus held himself out as a legitimate object for religious faith (Mark 9.42; Jn 3.15; Jn 9.35f) even to the same extent as the Father (Jn 14.1)
3) He NEVER corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to God (Mr 2.5ff; Jn 5.17ff; Jn 8.58-59; Jn 10:30-39) nor those who called him “GOD” (Jn 20.28).
4) He claims loyalty greater than ALL human loyalties (Mt 10.37)
5) Jesus claims that he should be honored co-extensively with the Father! (Jn 5.17f)
6) He claims the Father is seeking Jesus' glory (Jn 8.50 with 8.54b; Jn 13.31) and that the two are linked (Jn 11.4)
7) He uses the divine epithet “I AM” (Jn 8.58-59, 24, 28)
8) He accepts worship without rebuke, and even with commendation (Jn 9.35-38)His claims to authority:
1) Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins (Mark 2.5ff; Lk 7.48f)
2) Jesus had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2.28; Mt 12.8)
3) Jesus claims that the elect are his, and that the angels are his (Mr 13.26f)–either in possession or authority over
4) He implied that he had the ability/authority to abolish the law (Mt 5.21)
5) He implied by his “but I say to you…” passages a divine authority (Mt 5)
6) He had the authority to give authority over evil to others (Lk 10.19)
7) He claims to have universal authority (Jn 17.2)
8) He has authority to confer a kingdom–in the SAME MANNER that the Father does (Lk 22.29f)
9) He claims to have authority to send/give the Holy Spirit of God! (Lk 24.49; Jn 4.10 with 7.37-39; Jn 15.26; Jn 16.7)His claims to IDENTITY/EQUALITY with the Father :
1) Jesus claims that one's response to Jesus is equated to one's response to God (Jn 15.23).
2) Jesus claims that to see Him is to see the Father! (Jn 14.9)
3) He claims to be, and is repeatedly called, the potentially blasphemous title “Son of God” (Mr 14.62 et. al. )
4) He NEVER corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to God (Mr 2.5ff; Jn 5.17ff;
Jn 8.58-59; Jn 10:30-39) nor those who called him “GOD” (Jn 20.28).
5) He claims to be on a par with the Father and the Holy Spirit (Mt 28.19)
6) He claims that his coming was the same as God's coming (Lk 19.43ff)
7) He claims to operate co-extensively with the Spirit (Mk 21.14-15 with Mt 10 and Mr 13)
8) He claims to operate co-extensively with the Father (Jn 5.17ff; Jn 10.30-39; Jn 15.9)———————-
But you will claim God gave His glory to Christ – that is in direct opposition to scripture.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Here Christ laid the Glory down:
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
And upon His resurrection He took it back:
John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
—————————-
Now, knowing that the disciples and the Pharisees believed Christ claims of EQUALITY with God by being called the “Son of God” – I wholeheartedly agree!
The Pharisees and those that denied Christ did NOT believe……
Those that believed were saved:
John 8: 23 and he said to them, 'Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world; 24 I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I Am, ye shall die in your sins…
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God…
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Quote (Guest @ June 19 2005,03:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2005,00:22) Hi FYI,
The bible.
Let's test that. The Christian bible does NOT deny the incarnation or the deity, neither does the “true” Christian.The reason is scripture, and lots of it:
“I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.” Isaiah 42:8
Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Nice post FYI, I think you have many many excellent points.
Nick, can you see a very big contradiction between these two sets of passages:YHWH does not give His glory to another
Isaiah 42
8I am the LORD; that is my name; glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.”Isaiah 48:11,12
“For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.”The Father gives His glory to Jesus
Daniel 7
14And there was given him [the messiah] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.Mark 8
38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.I would be interested to know how you explain this?
Hi FYI,
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.The Son is not also the Father.
No one has seen God. God has no visible part.
Look at the Daniel scripture you quoted.
How many beings do you see there?There are two.
Why do you not believe what Jesus taught about himself and his Father?Hi DVD,
Is 42 8
” I am the Lord, that is my name;I will not give MY glory to another”
Is 48.11
“For My own sake ,for my own sake, I will act;For how can My name be prophaned? And MY glory I will not give to another”That speaks of the glory of the Father.
Jn 1.14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw HIS GLORY, Glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about him and cried out saying
'This was he of whom I said
“He who comes after me has ahigher rank than I, for he existed before me”
Of his fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth were realised through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time;the only begotten God who is isn the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him”This speaks of the glory of the Son of God.
He was not the Father who was his Father.
He was in the bosom of the Father and the Father was at his right hand in power.
He was filled with the Spirit of the Father and showed the character of God to the world.
John the Baptist testified as to his high ranking.
He also said he preexisted him though John was born first.So the Father is separate and has His own amazing Glory which He does not share with another. The Son has his own glory and was given greater glory and authority after his selfless service to his Father, not to himself.
So Nick, does the Son have a lesser glory than the Father? Can you prove that with scripture?
Here is a good verse on the Sons glory:
Is 24.23: Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.Hi DVD,
In the knowledge that your only reason to ever ask is to mock and try to tear down I offer these verses for the sake of others who read here too.
Heb 1.3 about Jesus
“and he is the Radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”
No image can be as great as what it reflects. The source is greater than the object of that energy. The Moon is a pale relection of the Sun.
2 Peter 1.16
“For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we are eyewitnesses of HIS MAJESTY. For when he received HONOR AND GLORY FROM GOD THE FATHER, such an utterance as this was made to him by THE MAJESTIC GLORY
'This is MY BELOVED SON with whom I am well pleased'
and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain”Here the Father [and Peter] attest to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet men would argue with God and make their own speculations more important than such evidence. Is there any greater witness possible to this truth? Jn 1 speaks of the glory of the Son[and many other places].Here Jesus is said to have majesty but God, his Father, is said to BE the Majestic Glory.
All glory comes from God and goes back to God.
I have never mocked you Nick. I occasionally get frustrated when you run away from scripture and my frustration does manifests itself in my Posts. Sorry. My aim is not to tear you down personally, but your flawed and dangerous christology.
I will ask my question again. Does Jesus have a lesser glory than the Father and if so can you back that up with scripture?
I would appreciate a direct answer, thanks.Grace.
Also, for the record. Not once has myself or FYI ever:
1. denied that Jesus is the Son of God (nor is this antithetical to being God), or
2. claimed that Jesus is the Father.
As soon as you answer my question DVD as to whether Jesus Christ has a deity of his own separate from the Father. Then we can move on.
You seem to need all things just so and right now from scripture. Your school headmaster approach is not inclusive enough for dialogue.
Why don't you search yourself? How do you show your own love of scripture by getting others to do your work? Or are your really just itching to show your contrary verses. Be positive DVD. It does help.
Quote (Guest @ June 19 2005,06:47) Also, for the record. Not once has myself or FYI ever: 1. denied that Jesus is the Son of God (nor is this antithetical to being God), or
2. claimed that Jesus is the Father.
OK DVD,
Let me try to get this straight from your perspective.
You believe:The Father is God.
The Son is God
The Spirit is God
The Father and Son and Spirit are God who is Yahweh[though I have not seen you write the Spirit is Yahweh]
The Father and Son and Spirit are individuals as well[persons]
They have never been separate though.
They have this unity from the beginning.
They also do not have their own will but are one in every way.
They are all equal and have no authority over one another.
When Jesus came it was Yahweh who came in His human part.
Jesus was not a true human being like us as he was not separate from God ever.
God wants us to worship Him as Himself and His Son and His Spirit.
All men can worship God in this way.Is thsi your Christology and theology or have I misunderstood you? I need you to put all your cards on the table so I can knw exactly where you are coming from. Can you please correct any misconceptions here. Thank you.
He was God in flesh.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2005,05:24) Hi DVD, In the knowledge that your only reason to ever ask is to mock and try to tear down I offer these verses for the sake of others who read here too.
Heb 1.3 about Jesus
“and he is the Radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature”
No image can be as great as what it reflects. The source is greater than the object of that energy. The Moon is a pale relection of the Sun.
2 Peter 1.16
“For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we are eyewitnesses of HIS MAJESTY. For when he received HONOR AND GLORY FROM GOD THE FATHER, such an utterance as this was made to him by THE MAJESTIC GLORY
'This is MY BELOVED SON with whom I am well pleased'
and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain”Here the Father [and Peter] attest to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet men would argue with God and make their own speculations more important than such evidence. Is there any greater witness possible to this truth? Jn 1 speaks of the glory of the Son[and many other places].Here Jesus is said to have majesty but God, his Father, is said to BE the Majestic Glory.
All glory comes from God and goes back to God.
So Nick,Tell me your not pinning your entire theology on the improper translation of one word in one verse. Because the word in the greek for brightness is NOT “reflect”.
Heb 1:3
who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might-through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000362
“a shining forth” (apo, “from,” auge, “brightness”), of a light coming from a luminous body, is said of Christ in Heb. 1:3, AV, “brightness,” RV, “effulgence,” i.e., shining forth (a more probable meaning than reflected brightness).Webster:
Main Entry: bright·ness
Function: noun
1 a : the quality or state of being bright; also : an instance of such a quality or state b : LUMINANCE
2 : the attribute of light-source colors by which emitted light is ordered continuously from light to dark in correlation with its intensityWebster:
Main Entry: ef·ful·gence
Pronunciation: i-'ful-j&n(t)s, e-, -'f&l-
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin effulgentia, from Latin effulgent-, effulgens, present participle of effulgEre to shine forth, from ex- + fulgEre to shine — more at FULGENT
: radiant splendor : BRILLIANCEMatthew 16:27 – For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father (not reflection of), and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
Matthew 25:31 – “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. (His Glory, not the flection of)
Mark 8:38 – For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” (the Glory of His Father, not the flection of)
Luke 2:9 – And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. (whose glory – no reflection here)
Luke 9:26 – For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. (whose glory – no reflection here)
Luke 9:32 – Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, and when they wakened they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. (whose glory – no reflection here)
Luke 19:38 – saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” (worship, praise, adoration – no reflection)
Luke 21:27 – And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (whose glory – no reflection here)
Luke 24:26 – Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” (whose glory – no reflection here)
John 1:14 – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (whose glory – no reflection here)
John 2:11 – This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him. (whose glory – no reflection here)
John 12:41 – Isaiah said this because he saw his glory and spoke of Him. (Isaiah saw the glory of God, Christ – no reflection here)
John 17:5 – and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made. (remember, He laid His glory down at His incarnation and took it up upon His resurrection – no reflection here)
Romans 1:23 – and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. (here Christ is pictured as the glory/image of God that the heathens replaced with “images of creation” to worship – no reflection here)
I can keep going if necessary, the abundance of scripture on this subject is again overwhelming.
In fact, the proper analogy was given of the sun and moon to be that of God/YHWH (the sun) and the moon (man):
180 AD Theophilus of Antioch
180 AD Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day. “On the fourth day the luminaries were made; because God, who possesses foreknowledge, knew the follies of the vain philosophers, that they were going to say, that the things which grow on the earth are produced from the heavenly bodies, so as to exclude God. In order, therefore, that the truth might be obvious, the plants and seeds were produced prior to the heavenly bodies, for what is posterior cannot produce that which is prior. And these contain the pattern and type of a great mystery. For the sun is a type of God, and the moon of man. And as the sun far surpasses the moon in power and glory, so far does God surpass man. And as the sun remains ever full, never becoming less, so does God always abide perfect, being full of all power, and understanding, and wisdom, and immortality, and all good. But the moon wanes monthly, and in a manner dies, being a type of man; then it is born again, and is crescent, for a pattern of the future resurrection. In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity,. of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.” [Triavdo” The earliest use of this word “Trinity.” It seems to have been used by this writer in his lost works, also; and, as a learned friends suggests, the use he makes of it is familiar. He does not lug it in as something novel: “types of the Trinity,” he says, illustrating an accepted word, not introducing a new one.] “And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made. The disposition of the stars, too, contains a type of the arrangement and order of the righteous and pious, and of those who keep the law and commandments of God. For the brilliant and bright stars are an imitation of the prophets, and therefore they remain fixed, not declining, nor passing from place to place. A
nd those which hold the second place in brightness, are types of the people of the righteous. And those, again, which change their position, and flee from place to place, which also are cared planets, they too are a type of the men who have wandered from God, abandoning His law and commandments.” (180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day, To Autolycus 2:15)And this quote is some 150 years prior to the Council of Nicea, about 85 years after the “Revelation” of John!
So to true Christendom – your arguments are weak and unsubstantiatable.
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