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Up until about 3 months ago, if you had asked me, I'd have said without hesitation, YHWH is the Most High God, meaning by that that he is the Father of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Now I am not entirely sure of this so I am willing to suspend my prior opinion and go back to the board (it's a terminology we use at my house. We put things on the board—I have a literal board on the mantel), to learn afresh.
If the evidence confirms my prior understanding, then wonderful. If not, what have I lost but a clearer knowledge and understanding of God. It is a win-win situation.
OT: The Messiah is promised and expected, but we don't see him as clearly, walking in the flesh as we do in NT.
We see YHWH mentioned throughout, along with titles like LORD of Hosts, etc.
We see Jesus presented prophetically in passages like Is 9.
Two are clearly presented in OT, eg. Psalm 45. “Therefore God, thy God,…” But this doesn't help. It only shows that there are clearly Father and son, which confirms NT teachings.Ancient of Days and Son of Man = two persons.
NT: We see YESHUA. We are told his name is a derivitive of YHWH and some theologies hold that that proves 3 in 1, etc.
***I could be wrong but the Father's name is not mentioned in NT to my knowledge–please correct me if I am wrong. It would solve the mystery!.
Father and son are presented throughout the new testament. We know Jesus' name but not the Father's name in these writings.Father and Son = two persons.
This is the problem: Do we have scripture passages that indicate YHWH and YESHUA? I can't think of any. If there is one like that, it would indicate that YHWH is the Father and Jesus the Son. If not, then we have to consider that YHWH is YESHUA in the OT (while the Father remained unseen), so that as in NT, the son was dealing with mankind.
This does not nullify that the Father and Son are still two persons, it just says that Jesus was present in OT in proxy though not fleshly manifested as in the NT, and represented the father who is so invisible and dwelling in unapproachable light.
Why didn't the name YHWH transition over to the NT along with Jesus? The apostles clearly differentiated b/n Father and Son as two persons, so why do we have one name and not the other name?
It should be two persons, two names. Hard to express my intent, but hope you understood anyway.
Am I off the wall? Talk to you later.
Hi cubes,
The Father does not have a name.
He does not need one.
Only we and archangels need names as there are more than one of us.
God is absolutely unique.
What we use for Him are descriptive terms.Jesus came to present His wonderful loving nature to us and to join us in the same relationship that he has with the Father.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2005,19:31) Hi cubes,
The Father does not have a name.
He does not need one.
Only we and archangels need names as there are more than one of us.
God is absolutely unique.
What we use for Him are descriptive terms.Jesus came to present His wonderful loving nature to us and to join us in the same relationship that he has with the Father.
I agree. So then, YHWH is not the father? We need to determine that conclusively scripturally. It would seem that NT doesn't make that claim!If it was written, [YHWH said to YESHUA, sit at my right hand….] then we can conclude that YHWH is not YESHUA, but without such a comparative scripture, YWHH can be the same literal person. (Not a modalist view).
Cubes, Good on you for questioning all things regarding your faith. Here are some verses that we can start with.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”Is the word LORD translated from YHWH?
I also think that the term 'LORD God' is 'YHWH elohiym' in Hebrew. I don't have time to check this right now.I think that YHWH is exclusively the Father and I just assumed it was his name.
I also offer the following verse:
Exodus 3:13-14, says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”God told Moses to say that 'I AM' sent him. I am not sure if God was saying this was his name, a name, or a title, but that he should say that 'I AM' sent him.
Hang on t8, none of these scriptures say that the Father and Sons have different names.
Nick,
The Father has more than one name: YHWH (generally used in a covenental and redemptive context), Elohim (creator), El (emphasising his might)……Sorry MM,
Perhaps I should explain.None of the names are personal names like John or Henry or Yeshua. They always denote his authority or role or nature.
all im saying Nick is that in the OT the Father and Son appear to share this name YHWH.
Can someone explain this verse to me?
Exodus 6:2,3
2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD . 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.Hi MM,
The reference is to Gen 17.1
” Now when Abram was 99 years old the Lord [YHWH 3068]appeared to Abram and said to him
'I am God Almighty”[[Shadday 7707]Both are names that belong to the Father alone.
God is not a God of confusion but of peace MM.you havent really explained the verse Nick.
Sorry Nick. I meant that can you explain this verse with regard to the “No one has ever seen God” (Jn 1:18) verses. They seem to contradict do they not?
Fair enough MM,
OK . I would say God meant.'I am the same being that appeared to Abram.
The name I gave myself to explain my nature and power was 'God Almighty” because I am The God above all other gods you may have thought existed.I am in the process of revealing myself to men and we have reached the next stage. What I have shown about myself so far is true but I wish to add to that through my names. Names are given by parents but I have no parent so I describe myself by symbolic names.
Now I want to give you another name to know me by that shows more of My nature. I am Lord of all. I have complete authority over everything in creation. No being has any authority over Me and I give all other authority as I wish to my creation.'
Does that help?
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 25 2005,23:42) Sorry Nick. I meant that can you explain this verse with regard to the “No one has ever seen God” (Jn 1:18) verses. They seem to contradict do they not?
Fair enough MM,The verse in John is true. Man cannot approach God. God is mightier than his Sun, a puny creation by his standards and no man could even come anywhere near the Sun.
No one has ever seen God. There have been many times when men have had visions of God such as in Is 6 and Daniel 7.This too would have been another vision or dream.
Hope this helps.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2005,00:20) The verse in John is true. Man cannot approach God. God is mightier than his Sun, a puny creation by his standards and no man could even come anywhere near the Sun. No one has ever seen God. There have been many times when men have had visions of God such as in Is 6 and Daniel 7.This too would have been another vision or dream.
Hope this helps.
Not really Nick, no.
Compare these scriptures:Exodus 6
2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD . 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.Jn 1
No one has seen GodIf you check these appearances by God in Genesis you will see that they were most certainly NOT visions. Genesis 17, 18 for example.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 25 2005,20:26) Cubes, Good on you for questioning all things regarding your faith. Here are some verses that we can start with. Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”Is the word LORD tranlated from YHWH?
I also think that the term 'LORD God' is 'YHWH elohiym' in Hebrew. I don't have time to check this right now.I think that YHWH is excusively the Father and I just assumed it was his name.
I also offer the following verse:
Exodus 3:13-14, says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, `What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”God told Moses to say that 'I AM' sent him. I am not sure if God was saying this was his name, a name, or a title, but that he should say that 'I AM' sent him.
Hi t8,Great opening scripture Proverb 30:4. But it is Psalm 2:7 that addresses the question best. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. It shows that YHWH has a Son, and therefore, is the Father. I believe we can all agree that Jesus is the one being begotten here.
Whew!
As we continue to study, let's please post other related verses in this thread. Thank you all.
Quote Exodus 6
2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD . 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.In these verses God says that he appeared to the some of the patriachs. If you read about these appearances you will see that He indeed did do this, and not in a vision.
Quote Jn 1:18
No one has seen GodThis verse says that no-one has seen God. No-one.
God has been seen.
God has not been seen.Which one is true.
I cannot be clearer than this.
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