Who is this Jesus?

[dirtyknections]

Hey nick..

I agree

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:56)

Did John Really question? Or was it a momentary lapse in faith? The experiences Jesus felt during and after his baptism..would only be felt and experienced by him… when the holy spirit works on you..although I may be present..I can not truly feel and experience what you are experiening….likewise John had no idea what Jesus felt or experienced…all John saw was a dove and he heard a voice…Jesus experienced way more.. If my understanding of the “heavens being opened up” verse is incorrect..what do you suggest that scripture is referrring to?

The dove had to get out some way, didn't it?

[Not3in1]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,17:01)

lol @ transgender issues You are a delight..i love your posts

Thanks, bro.

It's good to have new blood around here….

[dirtyknections]

Quote

The dove had to get out some way, didn't it?

hahahaha

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,16:54)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:51) Hey 3in1… Cool…i'll do that.. What about Proverbs 8…wisdom personified..referencing JEsus? Wisdom is refered to as a women.  Unless Jesus had transgender issues in the transporting/incarnation process?

You are right that wisdom is referred to as a woman and therefore is wisdom as a characteristic or trait. But then wisdom becomes a man if you read on.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:56)

when the holy spirit works on you..although I may be present..I can not truly feel and experience what you are experiening….likewise John had no idea what Jesus felt or experienced…all John saw was a dove and he heard a voice…Jesus experienced way more..

Hi DK.

Actually I am not sure that they saw a dove, but the Spirit decended like a dove. The description of the dove descending is maybe how the Spirit descended.

I am not sure if God would use an animal to represent his Spirit. Maybe he would maybe he wouldn't, but the scripture can be read as “descending like”.

BTW, I am enjoying your posts so far.

[Proclaimer]

Hi DK.

I tend to agree with you regarding Wisdom.

Wisdom is referred to as a woman and therefore wisdom as a characteristic or trait. But then wisdom becomes a man.

Proverbs 8:22….30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;

………..

30 THEN I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

It does sound suspiciously like Christ because God created all things through him and Christ as the Word was with God in the beginning. Christ also was glorified with the glory he had with the Father before the world began.

Many of the early fathers believed that Christ was Wisdom and as you pointed out we are told that he is wisdom from God in the New Testament.

[Is 1:18]

Quote

Knowledge of what? I think to some degree we are filling in the blanks according to our own peculiar dogmas. I'm sure God told Jesus he was his Father. After all, every kid has the right to know who is father is. I'm sure Mary confirmed the whole virgin thing. But other than that, it is pure speculation that God filled Jesus in on the preexisting bit.

Hey Mandy, I don't see to many other Jewish characters in the NT using this sort of language in reference to YHWH. Seems to denote an unusual intimacy of relationship.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,16:54)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:51) Hey 3in1… Cool…i'll do that.. What about Proverbs 8…wisdom personified..referencing JEsus? Wisdom is refered to as a women.  Unless Jesus had transgender issues in the transporting/incarnation process?

I agree. Feminine pronouns are used for Wisdom in Proverbs 8. He he….Is Yeshua the Son of God or the daughter of God t8??

[seek and you will find]

Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,20:58)

Hi DK. I tend to agree with you regarding Wisdom. Wisdom is referred to as a woman and therefore wisdom as a characteristic or trait. But then wisdom becomes a man. Proverbs 8:22….30 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; ……….. 30 THEN I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, It does sound suspiciously like Christ because God created all things through him and Christ as the Word was with God in the beginning. Christ also was glorified with the glory he had with the Father before the world began. Many of the early fathers believed that Christ was Wisdom and as you pointed out we are told that he is wisdom from God in the New Testament.

t8 All this was said before, by Lightenup and myself, but nobody seems to want to belief in that. Is it because God is not letting them know, or why? It is so clear to me, but others want to make it Wisdom as standing by self rather then being Jesus. God send His Son into the world to redeem the world, that through Him all might be saved. So where did God send His Son from? Shows that He was with the Father before the world was. He was the Fathers delight in Psalms 8:30 Genesis also says let us make man in our image. Who is us and who is our? To many Scriptures for me to deny the preexisting of Jesus before He became a man. I also belief that Jesus had to have God's Holy Spirit full strength in order to not sin. Because all mankind has sinned, and if He would not have been so strong, we would be dead forever. Thanks to our Savior and a great big Thanks to our Heavenly Father forever more.
Peace Mrs.

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ June 02 2008,20:50)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,16:54) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:51) Hey 3in1… Cool…i'll do that.. What about Proverbs 8…wisdom personified..referencing JEsus? Wisdom is refered to as a women.  Unless Jesus had transgender issues in the transporting/incarnation process? You are right that wisdom is referred to as a woman and therefore is wisdom as a characteristic or trait. But then wisdom becomes a man if you read on.

I thought this was a great insight, t8.

Wisdom starts out being a women, then becomes a man.

All men come from women, it's scriptural.

*Plus, women always have the best ideas first*

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2008,21:04)

Quote Knowledge of what? I think to some degree we are filling in the blanks according to our own peculiar dogmas. I'm sure God told Jesus he was his Father.  After all, every kid has the right to know who is father is.  I'm sure Mary confirmed the whole virgin thing.  But other than that, it is pure speculation that God filled Jesus in on the preexisting bit. Hey Mandy, I don't see to many other Jewish characters in the NT using this sort of language in reference to YHWH. Seems to denote an unusual intimacy of relationship.

Hey Isaiah,

I have a more intimate relationship with my son than I do the neighbor kid – but I'm still not going to tell him things that either aren't true (like he preexisted), or more information than he can handle at a time. I'm sure the Father told Jesus that he came from him. That he was his Daddy.

I don't see any evidence that Jesus knew, for instance, that he had this glorious life prior to becoming a dude who had to make furniture for a living. We just don't see that in Jesus. But I could be wrong (highly doubtful, but could be).

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 02 2008,21:17)

Who is us and who is our?

Again, look in any Study Bible and you will receive a few ideas other than God was sitting down and having a chat with his spiritual Son.

Believe me, sis, there are other ideas out there. Some of them could be possible. Broaden your view just a tiny bit and you may have some new ideas yourself. Or you may be like my older sister (who is 57) who believes she is too old to question anything she is already convinced of?
Take care,
Mandy

[dirtyknections]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,16:59)

Hey Isa 1:18.. Yeah i have heard that claim before…about wisdom being a women The New Testament authors present several lines of evidence that demonstrate Jesus to be the personified Wisdom of the Old Testament.  The apostle Paul presented one of the more explicit statements to this effect, identifying Christ directly as “the Wisdom of God.”[3]   (1Cor. 1:24)  Christ is not a mere attribute of God, but we understand that the attribute of wisdom dwells within him. (Col. 2:3)  It dwelling in him, he is naturally identified with it because he displays it so perfectly, personifying it. Luke, in recording the words of Jesus, observed an interesting reference to Wisdom.  Jesus stated:  “And because of this, the wisdom of God said, I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and drive out some of them…” (Luk. 11:49)   Jesus attributed the words quoted to “the Wisdom of God,” and yet in Matthew's parallel account the words are ascribed directly to Jesus.  Jesus here is said to attribute these words to “the wisdom of God,” and yet when we view Matthew’s account at Matthew 23:43 the words are are attributed to Jesus directly

Quote

he New Testament authors present several lines of evidence that demonstrate Jesus to be the personified Wisdom of the Old Testament.  The apostle Paul presented one of the more explicit statements to this effect, identifying Christ directly as “the Wisdom of God.”[3]   (1Cor. 1:24)  Christ is not a mere attribute of God, but we understand that the attribute of wisdom dwells within him. (Col. 2:3)  It dwelling in him, he is naturally identified with it because he displays it so perfectly, personifying it. Luke, in recording the words of Jesus, observed an interesting reference to Wisdom.  Jesus stated:  “And because of this, the wisdom of God said, I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and drive out some of them…” (Luk. 11:49)   Jesus attributed the words quoted to “the Wisdom of God,” and yet in Matthew's parallel account the words are ascribed directly to Jesus.  Jesus here is said to attribute these words to “the wisdom of God,” and yet when we view Matthew’s account at Matthew 23:43 the words are are attributed to Jesus directly

I stand by my comments here…Proverbs 8 where wisdom is personified..is referencing Jesus…These verses have always been understood that way….notice also my comments about wisdom in Luke, Matt, Col, and Corinthians

[dirtyknections]

Psalm 2:7 (niv)- 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son [a] ;
today I have become your Father.

Psalm 2:12 (niv)- 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Also scriptures that refer to Jesus BEFORE his earthly birth

[dirtyknections]

Other scriptures that shows Jesus Pre-existence”

Daniel 7:13-14

Obadiah 21

Micah 4:7,8

Malachai 3:1

[gollamudi]

Hi DK,
All those scripture you quoted above are also future events since they are prophetic in nature.
No pre-existence whatsoever as you imagine.
Peace to you
Adam

[dirtyknections]

Prophetic…yes…but taken into context with other scriptures they fit perfectly…

Colossians 1:15

Phillipians 2:7

John 1:1-3

John 1:18

John 13:19

Daniel 3:25

1 Cor 10:4,9

Hebrews 11:24-26

Gen 1:26

John 1:15

Rev 22:16

Micah 5:2

Ephesians 3:8-11

Proverbs 8:1-32…

[gollamudi]

These verses have been debated repeatedly in this forum you can gothrough the posts if you want especially under the topic “pre-existence”. No where these verses prove Jesus' pre-existence as some celestial being as you are thinking.
Peace to you
Adam

[Not3in1]

Hi,
A lurker sent me this in an email. I thought I would post it and see what other's think. Also, I want to encourage this individual to join our group openly and share his ideas.
Thanks,
Mandy

WHO? OR WHAT IS GOD??

THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD ! ! !
OR
GOD SHOWING HIMSELF IN DIFFERENT WAYS ! ! !

1.The Old Testament === WRITTEN …..or spoken word OF GOD.

2 The Gosples …….. === Living …. …… GOD WITH US, JESUS THE BODY OR VESSEL GOD LIVED IN

3. Acts …………………. === Acting ……….. GOD IN ACTION CALLED THE HOLY SPIRIT

4. Epistles ……………. === Explaining…..HOW GOD WORKS IN THE PEOPLE HE HAS ALREADY SAVED..

5. Revalation………… === Revealing ….. JESUS EXPLANING,, WHO HE WAS, IS, AND WILL BE

6. REV………………… === God's new name === THE WORD OF GOD

THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD ! ! !
OR
GOD SHOWING HIMSELF IN DIFFERENT WAYS ! ! !

1.The Old Testament === WRITTEN ….. === WORD = GOD, spoke the word
2. The Gosples …….. === Living …. …… === WORD = Jesus the incarinated word
3. Acts …………………. === Acting ……….. === WORD = Holy Spirit, God in action
4. Epistles ……………. === Explaining….. === WORD == Explaing the word, how to live
5. Revalation………… === Revealing ….. === WORD == Who Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit, Are
6. REV………………… === God's new name === WORD == God's new name= THE WORD OF God

[Author]

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