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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2007,16:49) Help us understand what your interpretation is of the “Monogenes Son of God” and the Son of man. *******************
Yes.
Just what I thought!
WJ, yes it does.
You interpret that passage to mean Jesus is the second person of the One true God, and as such he had “glory' with God, as God.
I do not share the same belief OR interpretation.
Just what I thought!
**********************
Glad I could clear that up for you
Hey, I read on your profile that you play the guitar. Another thing we have in common, besides our sarcastic/defensive ways
See, WJ, I know it's hard for you to believe that any of us so-called Unitarians love Jesus and give him glory and honor. But we do. I know I do. So, don't be sad for me……I know Jesus, and I follow him. I live knowing he died for me. I am fully aware of his sacrifice for me. I look forward to resting in him when I breathe my last. I look forward to seeing him when I am resurrected on that Day.
Jesus changes me. He is working with me. He cares for me, and loves me (believe it or not – ha). So, don't be sad. I know him. And he knows me.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2007,17:34) WJ, yes it does. You interpret that passage to mean Jesus is the second person of the One true God, and as such he had “glory' with God, as God.
I do not share the same belief OR interpretation.
Not3Oh so you just disregard Jn 17:5 that says he had Glory with the Father before the world was.
I came across this board in a pursuit of whether or not the Trinity was real. I have been a follower of Christ (some call this Christian but that word has lost its meaning) for 20 years and have always been bothered by the doctrine, but it has not really been an issue until recently. In any case, after reading many, many verses, Websites, posts on Google Groups, and the like, I'm still not convinced that at least much of the Trinity is correct. I will not say I feel all of it is, and therefore it must be incorrect in and of itself, but there is much that is true. Yet a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
However, I think most of the arguments for or against the Trinity have used the wrong approach. One tries to prove or disprove the other and I think this just leaves both sides with at least some animosity towards the other — something God does not want. He wants the body to be in one accord: “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.”
That aside, I think the approach should be to ascertain just who Jesus is. I have posted this thread in this forum and not in the “Truth or Tradition” one because I want us to approach this scripturally, with no traditional filters in place. I know that can be hard but we must if we are to get to the truth. Once we can come to the truth of who Jesus is, then we can apply this to the truth or fallacy of the Trinity.
To keep the premise and “rules separate, I will start off with my observations in the next post.
IMHO This is who Jesus is:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word was in the beginning, not the Son, but God's Word.
Joh 1:4 In him [the Word] was life; and the life was the light of men.Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the Power of the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she became pregnant with the Word that God used to create.Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
A new creation had begun. This new flesh was made of God's Word not of man. Was Jesus the Word, NO! The Word was Jesus.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jesus the Word of God does not create, or even do, it is the Father who speaks the Word that creates, and performs His will through the Word that became flesh.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jesus the son of man (like you and I) had a choice, a will of His own. He could do the will of the Father, or do His will and bow out, Jesus as the son of man had His own spirit; but He also had the Spirit of Truth to guide Him, no other human had the Spirit of God dwelling in them, the sacrifice for sin had not been paid. The day of Pentecost could not be fulfilled until sin had been abolished. The Holy Spirit had not been poured upon all flesh. Only through the sacrifice of Jesus was God's plan of His New Creation going to be completed…the family of the Father, Jesus being the first born.Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Jesus fulfilled the law of the sacrifice for sins, He completed the will of the Father. All who accept that sacrifice were made clean having their sins paid for thus allowing God's plan of the new creation…the family of the Father to continue.
After Jesus' resurrection a new kingdom formed those born again not of flesh but of the Spirit of the Father.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Jesus bought us by our will to accept His sacrifice. We belong to Jesus, He is the head of the body the new kingdom. Therefore Jesus is God of this kingdom that He paid for:
*********************************************
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
“Above thy fellows” above His brethren; the children of God.Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.**The Father anointed Jesus~God~ of this new creation the kingdom for which He paid.**
But this is not the end. Their is even a happier ending!
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom [His kingdom] to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This to me puts a whole new meaning to “honor thy Father”.
*********************************************
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
THE BEGINNING! AMEN!
BTW I AGREE! I know we must get past this in order to be one as Jesus prayed.
There are many NT verses that are straightforward so I will not be using them just yet. I think most can agree with many of the obvious ones. But I'd like to start from the beginning, and this will not be so direct, but I think it will lend some insight and give us some direction. All verses will be from NASB unless noted.
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Many have speculated that the “Us” in verse 26 was the Father and Jesus, in whatever form he was in at the time. They do this in accordance with John 1:1 and other verses that lend to the idea that all things were created by God through Christ. Simple, eh?
Notice one part is missing in verse 27 that was in 26? Look at it. In verse 27 it says He created Man in His image rather than using Us again. Why? But I think it is vital that you note that verse 27 also does not speak of the “likeness” component of Man. Is this important?
God is spirit, He has no form. Yet Man does, so I assert that is where the “likeness” component, as applied to “our likeness” comes into play. So did Jesus then pre-exist in human form even before he came to earth? Who was the pattern for Man in fleshly form?
There can be another explanation, one that I believe holds merit but very hard to prove or disprove. Angels often appeared to men, and with a few exceptions, it appears that they took on the form of Man here on earth. The were often recognized for who they were, but one must wonder why they so often took the shape of Man. Could it not be possible that Man's fleshly form was not patterned after angels? This would help explain Genesis 1:26 in both image and likeness — the image of God, the likeness of angels. The image would be our spiritual component, the likeness the bodily form.
Of course this is speculation. But can it be disproved? These verses lend some credence to this hypothesis:
Judges 13:6 – Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name.
Genesis 6:1-4 – Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 – Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Here, at least, it appears that the sons of God were angels. And according to Genesis 6, they could actually mate with humans, producing a mighty race of men.
What does this have to do with Jesus? I'll be working towards that but please understand that I do not believe that Jesus was/is and angel. There are many verses that would squash that idea. But I wanted to show that the “Us” in Genesis 1:26 might not be simply just Yahweh and the Word, but the heavenly host as well.
Quote
Of course this is speculation. But can it be disproved? These verses lend some credence to this hypothesis:While we are speculating
The Mormons believe God IS flesh but no blood. How's that for explaining how we are created in His image Quote (kenrch @ July 01 2007,05:29) Quote
Of course this is speculation. But can it be disproved? These verses lend some credence to this hypothesis:While we are speculating
The Mormons believe God IS flesh but no blood. How's that for explaining how we are created in His image
Well, this smashes that one, I even quoted it above:Genesis 6:3 – Then the LORD said, ” My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Good luck with that, Mormons…
Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,05:47) Quote (kenrch @ July 01 2007,05:29) Quote
Of course this is speculation. But can it be disproved? These verses lend some credence to this hypothesis:While we are speculating
The Mormons believe God IS flesh but no blood. How's that for explaining how we are created in His image
Well, this smashes that one, I even quoted it above:Genesis 6:3 – Then the LORD said, ” My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Good luck with that, Mormons…
Gee lighten up!Lighten up? I didn't know I was being harsh. I was just showing, with scripture, that God having flesh is a false belief. If someone has a belief that can be easily disprove biblically then it is good to show them so the truth can be known.
Sorry if I seemingly offended someone
.Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,05:08) There are many NT verses that are straightforward so I will not be using them just yet. I think most can agree with many of the obvious ones. But I'd like to start from the beginning, and this will not be so direct, but I think it will lend some insight and give us some direction. All verses will be from NASB unless noted. Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Many have speculated that the “Us” in verse 26 was the Father and Jesus, in whatever form he was in at the time. They do this in accordance with John 1:1 and other verses that lend to the idea that all things were created by God through Christ. Simple, eh?
Notice one part is missing in verse 27 that was in 26? Look at it. In verse 27 it says He created Man in His image rather than using Us again. Why? But I think it is vital that you note that verse 27 also does not speak of the “likeness” component of Man. Is this important?
God is spirit, He has no form. Yet Man does, so I assert that is where the “likeness” component, as applied to “our likeness” comes into play. So did Jesus then pre-exist in human form even before he came to earth? Who was the pattern for Man in fleshly form?
There can be another explanation, one that I believe holds merit but very hard to prove or disprove. Angels often appeared to men, and with a few exceptions, it appears that they took on the form of Man here on earth. The were often recognized for who they were, but one must wonder why they so often took the shape of Man. Could it not be possible that Man's fleshly form was not patterned after angels? This would help explain Genesis 1:26 in both image and likeness — the image of God, the likeness of angels. The image would be our spiritual component, the likeness the bodily form.
Of course this is speculation. But can it be disproved? These verses lend some credence to this hypothesis:
Judges 13:6 – Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name.
Genesis 6:1-4 – Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 – Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Here, at least, it appears that the sons of God were angels. And according to Genesis 6, they could actually mate with humans, producing a mighty race of men.
What does this have to do with Jesus? I'll be working towards that but please understand that I do not believe that Jesus was/is and angel. There are many verses that would squash that idea. But I wanted to show that the “Us” in Genesis 1:26 might not be simply just Yahweh and the Word, but the heavenly host as well.
Hi kj,
I agree.
But another thought is that man is spoken of in two ways in scripture as
outer man-flesh/tent-such as Gen 3
an inner man-soul/spirit as in Rom 7.I believe man is as spirit beings -angels- as inner man, and since God too is a spirit being of soul/spirit, also made in God's image.
Then there is the scripture that says the sons of the resurrection-so with the new heavenly body-will be like to the angels. Do angels now have imperishable heavenly bodies?
Hi kj,
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”One thing is plain.
That at the time of the creation of life on earth God was not alone.
Life on earth was a relatively late aspect of the creation of God and Genesis 1 is not the beginning.Jb 38
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
God was not alone but was alone responsible for creation, creating through his Son.
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
First the Father brouth forth the Son, who then was the Word. Then He created everything. It says in verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth……….All things were created through Him and for Him.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,03:30) I came across this board in a pursuit of whether or not the Trinity was real. I have been a follower of Christ (some call this Christian but that word has lost its meaning) for 20 years and have always been bothered by the doctrine, but it has not really been an issue until recently. In any case, after reading many, many verses, Websites, posts on Google Groups, and the like, I'm still not convinced that at least much of the Trinity is correct. I will not say I feel all of it is, and therefore it must be incorrect in and of itself, but there is much that is true. Yet a little leaven leavens the whole lump. However, I think most of the arguments for or against the Trinity have used the wrong approach. One tries to prove or disprove the other and I think this just leaves both sides with at least some animosity towards the other — something God does not want. He wants the body to be in one accord: “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.”
That aside, I think the approach should be to ascertain just who Jesus is. I have posted this thread in this forum and not in the “Truth or Tradition” one because I want us to approach this scripturally, with no traditional filters in place. I know that can be hard but we must if we are to get to the truth. Once we can come to the truth of who Jesus is, then we can apply this to the truth or fallacy of the Trinity.
To keep the premise and “rules separate, I will start off with my observations in the next post.
Hi Kj,
Are you still in the undivided kingdom or did a false leaven confuse you?LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)JOHN 1:49
“Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)JOHN 1:34
“I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.” (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)
MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
MARK 3:11
“Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)
MATTHEW 26:63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)
LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)
MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)JOHN 10:36
“do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)
MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
The one of these that I find the most interesting is the Jewish leaders who were accusing him of being the son of God, saying: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“
Obviously, these ones were not concerned with following the rules:
MATTHEW 26:59-60
“Meantime the chief priests and the entire San′he·drin were looking for false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death, but they found none, although many false witnesses came forward. Later on two came forward”And they were not following standard procedures at all. Given this, given that it appeared they were willing to do anything to have Jesus done away with, it is interesting to me that they only accused him of claiming to be the son of God and not God. Had they had any reason at all to accuse him of the larger crime, they would have without question done so.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2008,15:07) Quote (kejonn @ July 01 2007,03:30) I came across this board in a pursuit of whether or not the Trinity was real. I have been a follower of Christ (some call this Christian but that word has lost its meaning) for 20 years and have always been bothered by the doctrine, but it has not really been an issue until recently. In any case, after reading many, many verses, Websites, posts on Google Groups, and the like, I'm still not convinced that at least much of the Trinity is correct. I will not say I feel all of it is, and therefore it must be incorrect in and of itself, but there is much that is true. Yet a little leaven leavens the whole lump. However, I think most of the arguments for or against the Trinity have used the wrong approach. One tries to prove or disprove the other and I think this just leaves both sides with at least some animosity towards the other — something God does not want. He wants the body to be in one accord: “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.”
That aside, I think the approach should be to ascertain just who Jesus is. I have posted this thread in this forum and not in the “Truth or Tradition” one because I want us to approach this scripturally, with no traditional filters in place. I know that can be hard but we must if we are to get to the truth. Once we can come to the truth of who Jesus is, then we can apply this to the truth or fallacy of the Trinity.
To keep the premise and “rules separate, I will start off with my observations in the next post.
Hi Kj,
Are you still in the undivided kingdom or did a false leaven confuse you?
The simple truth is that I don't allow a set of writings recorded 1800-1900 years ago determine my life any more. People say they seek truth but if they TRULY do so they might very well end up chunking mythology.
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