Who is this Jesus?

[Not3in1]

Tim, the simple truth is, it takes great inference for you to proclaim what Jesus meant when he said , “I am.” You don't really know, for sure, do you? How can you? Were you there? Did you ask Jesus after he made that statement what he meant? Of course you didn't. It COULD mean something different. In fact, we have heard a lot of other ideas about what that statement means from other believers, and there ideas are just as likely. You see, your theory proves nothing. It's a theory (a guess).

Were you a person prior to your birth? Why should Jesus be then?

Are you a combination of your mother and father? Why should Jesus not be? These are fair questions, I believe.

[Not3in1]

WJ,

Son of God. Son of Man.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 14 2007,18:29)

Tim, the simple truth is, it takes great inference for you to proclaim what Jesus meant when he said , “I am.”  You don't really know, for sure, do you?  How can you?  Were you there?  Did you ask Jesus after he made that statement what he meant?  Of course you didn't.  It COULD mean something different.  In fact, we have heard a lot of other ideas about what that statement means from other believers, and there ideas are just as likely.  You see, your theory proves nothing.  It's a theory (a guess).   Were you a person prior to your birth?  Why should Jesus be then? Are you a combination of your mother and father?  Why should Jesus not be?  These are fair questions, I believe.

Not3in1

How do you explain these scriptures…

Jn 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 14 2007,18:30)

WJ, Son of God.  Son of Man.

not3in1

Those scriptures do not say he is “part” God.

We are sons of God but we are not part God.

Jesus is not 50% God and 50% man my sister.

He is the Lord from heaven. God in the flesh!

Blessings

[Not3in1]

WJ, I have some excellent answers for you! But it's nearly mid-night here, and I'm starting to lose concentration. Let me give you some answers that will make more sense if I am fully awake I will post tomorrow.

But you must agree that Jesus is BOTH Son of Man, and Son of God?

Thanks and goodnight!

[Not3in1]

WJ,
There are a number of verses that refer to Jesus coming “from heaven,” “from above,” “sent from God,” etc., and these are all found in the gospel of John.

John's baptism was “from heaven” because God was the source of the inspiration. So, too, Jesus “came from heaven” because God was the source of the seed created in Mary. It would be an intrusion on the language and the culture of the time to insist that the bible teaches an incarnation when there is evidence that the woreds used to “prove” it have an entirely different meaning.

James 1:17 says that good and perfect gifts are “from above” and “come down” from the Father. Obviously, this verse is saying that God is the source of the wondeful things spoken of. No one believes that unless something literally drops from the sky it is not from God.

But we are wondering away from the topic at hand: Jesus is the Son of God ***AND*** the Son of Man.

WJ, question: If Jesus is not 50% man, in what way is he man? And, is your answer possible considering “true” conception, pregnancy, and birth?

[Not3in1]

What I am clearly contending for, and fighting for, is Jesus' right to be a true, begotten Son of God.

Jesus is not an incarnation – a “second person” of God Almighty – but his own person. Not God.

Given the fact that the bible says Jesus was conceived, and birthed (and provided we use our minds to know what these things mean, and not twist their simple meanings), the natural conclusion GOD WANTS us to come to is that Jesus is his Son. A true Son.

It's this Son – that God wants us to believe in.

It's this Son – that a child could understand and put their trust in.

1 John 5:11, emphasis mine:
And this is the testimony (God has given): God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

If Jesus was the “second person” of God, God would have given us testimony to such a foriegn idea (and clear teaching). He did not. God has led us to believe through the OT, and all the way through the NT, that his Son is a true, begotten Son. Men have twisted this. They have made Jesus an incarnation. Which in and of itself, sounds spooky. And ultimately so sad.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,05:21)

WJ, There are a number of verses that refer to Jesus coming “from heaven,” “from above,” “sent from God,” etc., and these are all found in the gospel of John.   John's baptism was “from heaven” because God was the source of the inspiration.  So, too, Jesus “came from heaven” because God was the source of the seed created in Mary.  It would be an intrusion on the language and the culture of the time to insist that the bible teaches an incarnation when there is evidence that the woreds used to “prove” it have an entirely different meaning. James 1:17 says that good and perfect gifts are “from above” and “come down” from the Father.  Obviously, this verse is saying that God is the source of the wondeful things spoken of.  No one believes that unless something literally drops from the sky it is not from God. But we are wondering away from the topic at hand:  Jesus is the Son of God ***AND*** the Son of Man. WJ, question:  If Jesus is not 50% man, in what way is he man?  And, is your answer possible considering “true” conception, pregnancy, and birth?

not3in1

That is pure speculation. Why dont you believe what the Lord said.

He didnt say I was a seed from God out of heaven. Why would he say “*I* came down from heaven” and not mean just that?

1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was *with the Father*, and was manifested unto us;)

Who is the above scriptures speaking of? Gods Sperm?

And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory?

This is pure speculation sister and heretical in my opinion.

[Not3in1]

WJ wrote:
That is pure speculation. Why dont you believe what the Lord said.
****************************

God also said that Jesus is his only begotten Son (born of Mary), why don't you believe that? You don't, really, believe that do you? You believe in the incarnation. So, I'll turn your words back on you and ask you why you don't simply believe what the Lord is saying?

WJ wrote:
He didnt say I was a seed from God out of heaven. Why would he say “*I* came down from heaven” and not mean just that?
*******************************
Again, I disagree with your *opinion* Jesus DID say he was a seed from God when he said he was the Son of God.

See, it's simple. Not complex.

To be a son to anyone……………..you begin with a seed.

[Not3in1]

The truth of the matter is – and if you'll be honest here – you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
You believe Jesus is an incarnation.
Two very different beliefs.
Which one does the bible CLEARLY teach?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,06:07)

And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory?

Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following:
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Of Jeremiah, the LORD said:
Jer 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Are each of these scriptures proof that we pre-existed with God?

Tim

[Not3in1]

No. Not pre-existing in a physical sense. Tim, are you saying you believe that YOU pre-existed your birth? No one did, not even Christ. We were foreknown to God, just as Jesus was.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,09:40)

No.  Not pre-existing in a physical sense.  Tim, are you saying you believe that YOU pre-existed your birth?  No one did, not even Christ.  We were foreknown to God, just as Jesus was.

Absolutely not. WorshippingJesus infered that when Jesus said
“Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”
Proved that Jesus pre-existed his birth.

I merely pointed out that the other verses that I quoted would prove the same thing then.

I don't believe that they prove anything other than that God knows us all before we are ever born.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Hi Not3in1,

We are saying the same thing. I just wasn't clear because I ended my comment with a question to WorshippingJesus
about whether the verses I quoted proved pre-existence.

Didn't you hear my voice go up at the end?

Tim

[Not3in1]

Ha – Tim – I'm so glad you have a sense of humor! That is a nice thing around here Thanks for the clarification.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,09:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,06:07) And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory? Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Are each of these scriptures proof that we pre-existed with God? Tim

Tim

Show me how these verses say “We shared” anything with God before the foundation of the world.

You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures.

Sad!  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,10:41)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,09:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,06:07) And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory? Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Are each of these scriptures proof that we pre-existed with God? Tim Tim Show me how these verses say “We shared” anything with God before the foundation of the world. You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures. Sad!

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which **I had** with thee before the world was.

Greek Had, 'echo'…

1) to have, i.e. to hold

a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as

2) to have i.e. own, possess

a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.

b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship

3) to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition

4) to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to

a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing

Do you remember having anything before you were born?

Is there a scripture that says you existed before you were born?

 

[Not3in1]

WJ, just exactly HOW did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,16:15)

WJ, just exactly HOW did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was?

not3in1

Because he was the Word that was with God and was God.

And was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Jn 1:1 and Jn 1:14

All the translations render these verses the same.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,10:41)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,09:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,06:07) And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory? Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Are each of these scriptures proof that we pre-existed with God? Tim Tim Show me how these verses say “We shared” anything with God before the foundation of the world. You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures. Sad!

Hi WorshippingJesus,

You said “You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures.”

All I did was copy and paste the actual scriptures.
I didn't alter anything.

God knew and sanctified Jeremiah before he was even formed in the belly, just as He glorified Jesus before He was born.
Neither verse proves pre-existence. Just fore-knowledge.
That is not too difficult to understand.

A person shouldn't have to pick one verse to prove their doctrine and then deny the others.

Tim

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