Who is this Jesus?

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 06 2006,04:42)

Hey Cubes. I get the feeling you think i'm trying to trap you in something here. I'm not. I was simply asking you if you believed Jesus was somehow birthed by The Father pre-incarnation, or if you believe that He became a Son during His earthly life. From what you've written I take it that it's the former. I understand that a lot of people hold to this but I see NO scriptural evidence for this birth event. What have you read that has lead you to the conclusion that Yahshua became a Son pre-incarnation and ALWAYS existed as a Son (in an anthropic context). Quote On the other hand Jesus speaks of his Father as though he's been his Son for more than 33 years.   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I dont see how you can draw the conclusion that “Jesus speaks of his Father as though he's been his Son for more than 33 years” from this verse. If anything it shows that the shared the same glory and that argues against a subordination.

Hi Is,

No I don't feel that you are trying to trap me but I do feel though that we're going off on a rabbit trail and off topic when we focus on WHEN Jesus became a son, rather than the thing that matters to our salvation: that he is the Son of God. That's all I am saying.

Jesus was born of Mary some 2,000 years ago and it may well be that he became God's Son on that day. I am called to believe that he really is the Son of God and I do.

Speculatively, it could be that God called him “my son” about 14 months before the day that he was born on earth. If so, technically, he was a Son 14 months earlier but was revealed to men in the Manger. Some even didn't know about it till some thirty or so years later during his ministry years.
I feel that there is little to be gained by dwelling on this line of thinking.

I have to run but would continue shortly.

[hybrid]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 06 2006,16:18)

Hi Is, No I don't feel that you are trying to trap me but I do feel though that we're going off on a rabbit trail and off topic when we focus on WHEN Jesus became a son, rather than the thing that matters to our salvation:  that he is the Son of God.  That's all I am saying. Jesus was born of Mary some 2,000 years ago and it may well be that he became God's Son on that day.  I am called to believe that he really is the Son of God and I do.   Speculatively, it could be that God called him “my son” about 14 months before the day that he was born on earth.  If so, technically, he was a Son 14 months earlier but was revealed to men in the Manger.  Some even didn't know about it till some thirty or so years later during his ministry years.   I feel that there is little to be gained by dwelling on this line of thinking. I have to run but would continue shortly.

gee cubes,

it's well and good to believe that jesus was the son of the living god.

but john, thomas, paul, hebrewa and peter never stopped there, and went a little further….

Titus 2:13-15
13 while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach.
NIV

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
NIV

John 20:28
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
NIV

John 1:1
and the Word was God.
NIV

Heb 1:8-9
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
NIV

the scriptures were too numerous to ignore….

that jesus christ was indeed god in the flesh.

.

[Cubes]

Hello Hybrid,

No argument there. However the bible also shows that Jesus Christ is a God/god ('elohiym) (John 1:1, Ps 45:5-6), Son of the Most High God/god ('elohiym).
Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Zidonians is also elohiym. 1 Ki 11:5
The angels of Ps 8:5 are also `elohiym.

There are many Gods/gods indeed but as written:

Daniel 11:32
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God ['elohiym] shall be strong, and do [exploits].

As with Elijah and Jesus, those who know who the True God/god is among the many Gods/gods, shall do exploits.

[Cubes]

Hi Is 1:18:

ADDENDUM:    There is no way to determine the specific day WHEN God made the declaration, “you are my son, today I have begotten you.” What we can say is that there was a time WHEN God begat the Lord Jesus as his son and that before that, he had not yet been begotten.

John says that before he became flesh he was the Word that was with God and *–a–* God.    
My insertion:(*–a–*).  
Given all the other scriptures that I have seen regarding Jesus, I know and believe that he is not the only True God and Invisible YHWH we know as our Father.

So Jesus was w/ the Father and had a glory with him before he came on earth and you take that to mean he is the God w/ whom he had glory, that is part of his corporate being.  If so, to a lesser degree, I offer the following scriptures to illustrate that where the Father is Jesus may be since he has been found pleasing to God; where Jesus is his servants may be also; where the Father is glorified, his son may bask in that glory too for sheer proximity and relationship as the apostles basked in the glory of Jesus when they walked w/ him.  It still doesn't make the apostles and Jesus the same entity.

“Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Undoubtedly you would agree that there would be some glory round the throne when the saints are gathered there with Jesus!

[Cubes]

Hi Is

You did set me on a rabbit trail! How did I end up talking about the throne? ha ha ha!

[hybrid]

cubes,

paul and peter clearly did not refer to jesus here as “a” god… but their great god. (mine too)

Titus 2:13-15
13 while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach.
NIV

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
NIV

thinking about jesus as a lesser god than the father has also pagan parallelism (in greek mythology)

also the hundred and so usage of the word theos in NT refers to deity (supreme being), with the exception in cor when it was use to refer to satan as the god of this world.

so i think it is also common sense that the word god refer to jesus was within the general rule of the usage of the word in the whole NT.

if you want to believe that the usage of god that refer to jesus was the exception to the rule, that's your call…

.

[Cubes]

Quote (hybrid @ Mar. 07 2006,04:26)

cubes, paul and peter clearly did not refer to jesus here as “a” god… but their great god. (mine too) Titus 2:13-15 13 while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. 15 These, then, are the things you should teach. NIV 2 Peter 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: NIV thinking about jesus as a lesser god than the father has also pagan parallelism (in greek mythology) also the hundred and so usage of the word theos in NT refers to deity (supreme being), with the exception in cor when it was use to refer to satan as the god of this world. so i think it is also common sense that the word god refer to jesus was within the general rule of the usage of the word in the whole NT. if you want to believe that the usage of god that refer to jesus was the exception to the rule, that's your call… .

Hi Hybrid,

I take the call to say emphatically that Jesus Christ is none other than the Son of the Living God, and not the Living God himself.  I am confident in the countless passages of the holy scriptures and many witnesses that testify to that fact.

That is what it really boils down to, which I believe to be critical in the matters of salvation.

Were there no scriptures like these and so many others by the apostles, I could be persuaded but there are two many clear passages as to leave us with no shadow of doubt that Jesus is not the Most High God for he worships the most high God himself.

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.  

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.  

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and my new name.

Some of these passages refer to Jesus post resurrection and ascension.  If you understand his usage of “My Father and My God” to not just be meaningless roles and titles, then you should be able to see how the chips fall.

We know that:

1.  The Father calls Jesus “`elohiym [God/god]” and “my beloved Son”
2.  He said of men, “ye are `elohiym [Gods/gods] and children of the Most High.”  
3.  The Father refers to himself as God to be compared to no one else, reigning above everyone else.
4.  Jesus says all authority has been given unto him, and that he has a Father and that Father is the True God, his God.  
5.  Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the firstfruits of God's creation, by and through whom God made the worlds.
6.  That all authority has been given to Jesus by the Father, excepting the Father himself, so that Jesus submits to and shall submit to the Father (1 Cor 15).

What we do not see is:

a.  Jesus calling himself God and carrying himself as though he is his own Father.  Yes, he said “if you've seen me you've seen the Father…” but which is more reasonable, that a man be his own father while he keeps talking about his father still, or that by such a comment, he intends others to understand that he rightly represents his father?  I take the latter and knowing Jesus, he'd say that I rightly judged.  There are no trick questions and answers.

b.  No example of the Father ever calling anyone “My Father” or “My God,” nor is he shown in any example receiving from anyone something that he needs, being surbordinate to anyone or being moved or changed or turned from his glorious state as the invisible God and only potentate of all.  

Yes Jesus emptied himself of his glorious form of Godhood but until you can show me a scripture which interpretes John 1:1 to mean he was actually the living God, I shall have to interprete these scriptures by all the other scriptures which at the end of the day, show him to be the Son of God and not the one God being who is the Father. The scriptures that you present are not comparative, in that whenever Jesus is shown in the same scripture with the Father, the utmost esteem is given by the apostles to the Father in recognition that it is He who is the Living God and Jesus is high and exalted Son, our Lord and savior.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Cubes,
Sorry I'm not able to pass comment on the individual points you have made for a little while, I have to travel out of town again. I will say this though, and I hope you won't be offended by my bluntness, but it's apparent to me that you strongly believe that Yahshua Messiah is the “Son of God” (as do I) – but  still have NO CLUE what this means to you. Do you hold that Yahshua was procreated by the Father? If so, when? (before the incarnation or during?). Do you apply an anthropic understanding of the Father/Son relationship to Yahshua and the Father? IYHO do they have different ontology (like human fathers & sons)?

I also would like to ask you if you, like t8, hold to the belief that Yahshua is one of the lords or gods of 1 Cor 8:5?

[Is 1:18]

Edited for clarity:

Hi Cubes,
Sorry I'm not able to pass comment on the individual points you have made for a little while, I have to travel out of town again. I will say this though, and I hope you won't be offended by my bluntness, but it's apparent to me that you strongly believe that Yahshua Messiah is the “Son of God” (as do I) – but I still have NO CLUE what this means to you. Do you hold that Yahshua was procreated by the Father? If so, when? (before the incarnation or during?). Do you apply an anthropic understanding of the Father/Son relationship to Yahshua and the Father? IYHO do they have different ontology (unlike human fathers & sons)?

I also would like to ask you if you, like t8, hold to the belief that Yahshua is one of the lords or gods of 1 Cor 8:5?

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 08 2006,02:55)

Edited for clarity: Hi Cubes, Sorry I'm not able to pass comment on the individual points you have made for a little while, I have to travel out of town again. I will say this though, and I hope you won't be offended by my bluntness, but it's apparent to me that you strongly believe that Yahshua Messiah is the “Son of God” (as do I) – but I still have NO CLUE what this means to you. Do you hold that Yahshua was procreated by the Father? If so, when? (before the incarnation or during?). Do you apply an anthropic understanding of the Father/Son relationship to Yahshua and the Father? IYHO do they have different ontology (unlike human fathers & sons)? I also would like to ask you if you, like t8, hold to the belief that Yahshua is one of the lords or gods of 1 Cor 8:5?

Hi Is 1:18:

What does it typically mean to say someone is someone's son? Yes, it is literal to me of Jesus.  Not as some figure of speech.

Being the son of someone means one is procreated or adopted by another who is chronologically older, he is beloved, a kin, in the family's genealogy naturally or through adoption, an image (through genes and/or attitude), hopefully an heir; a representative of his father as needed; a son is generally shown regard (or the lack of it) by others intended for his father, and a whole host of other subtle things that are too numerous to touch on individually.  

Does one need to know one's date or place of birth to have that matter….especially if by objective proof and reliable sources it is verified that one is the son of his father?  Not at all.  

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] SON, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

If you have questions for me PM me please. I believe Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. Therefore all comments of Who is Jesus will be directed to the Trinty Forum. Thank you

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 08 2006,02:55)

Edited for clarity: Do you apply an anthropic understanding of the Father/Son relationship to Yahshua and the Father? IYHO do they have different ontology (unlike human fathers & sons)? I also would like to ask you if you, like t8, hold to the belief that Yahshua is one of the lords or gods of 1 Cor 8:5?

Hi Is,

Sorry, I forgot to answer the rest…

Anthropic:  Of or relating to humans or the era of human life.

I would have no other understanding to apply or compare it to besides the examples seen on earth unless the Father through his word revealed a different understanding.  Besides, the family relationships are his idea to begin with.

on·tol·o·gy:  The branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of being.

As the only begotten Son of God, I know the Spirit of the Father is in him, which is the highest identity anyone can have which is why we too through Jesus are so privileged to be called the children of God.  1 John 3:1-2.

There is a distinction that sets the Father apart:
one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him.

Similarly the son is set apart by the Father as:

and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

additionally

Hebrews 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?*

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?*

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”*

Jesus, however is still not the same being as the Most High God. I am confident that it is all that t8 wishes to show, for it is necessary to show that there are many Gods/gods since it has become necessary to point out who the Father is from his son, something Jesus spent a lot of time teaching, trying to convince the unbelieving people of the day that he really comes from the Father!  Who would have thought a time would come when people would now sway to the other extreme, and worst still, think that God is a three in one being!  

And we thank God for the holy scriptures which help us clarify, defend and substantiate the gospel of Jesus Christ preached from the beginning.

Your zeal is wonderful and yet like the Lord, I ask, why do you kick against the goads?  I can't help having high expectations for how the Lord shall further use you as he used Paul when he finally believed what Stephen and the apostles were preaching.

Blessings & Love.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 08 2006,23:10)

What does it typically mean to say someone is someone's son? Yes, it is literal to me of Jesus.  Not as some figure of speech.

Hi Cubes,
Tell me what you make of these passages:

LUKE 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 09 2006,02:38)

I am confident that it is all that t8 wishes to show, for it is necessary to show that there are many Gods/gods

Hi Cubes,
I hope to elaborate on what follows in the weekend. But it seems to me that both t8's and your understanding that there are many lords and gods has its basis in 1 Cor 8:5f (which is why I asked you about it). Indeed it is true, there are many lords and gods – to pagans. If you read that chapter carefully you will see that Paul was actually contrasting Yahshua and the Father from the false gods the pagans worship.

[Eliyah]

Ah ha, that's exactly right IS 1:18, and there is ONLY ONE FATHER YAHWEH and YAHSHUA MESSIAH, and all the others and rest of the nation's deities , they worship is devils or demons ( See also 1 Cor.10:19-21) for all the gentiles sacrifice or worship to demons not YAHWEH Elohim.

And Paul said there was ONLY ONE YAHWEH ELOHIM, and only ONE Yahshua Messiah, and all the rest are false idol deities-ie gods.

Paul also said there was NOT THIS KNOWLEDGE IN EVERY MAN EITHER about there being MANY lords and god deities( 1 Cor.8:7), people better stop worshipping idol gods or deities, for there are many ” lords and gods or deities “, Paul writes and says so, but ONLY ONE YAHWEH ELOHIM and Yahshua Messiah.

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi Is 1:18,
I also agree there is only one true God all other Gods are man made or self proclaimed.

Exo 20:23  Ye shall not make with me GODS OF SILVER, neither shall ye make unto you GODS OF GOLD.
Exo 23:13  And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exo 23:14  Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.

Exo 23:32  Thou shalt make NO COVENANT WITH THEM, NOR WITH THEIR GODS.
Exo 23:33  They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: FOR IF THOU SERVE THEIR GODS, IT WILL SURELY BE A SNARE UNTO THEE.

Exo 32:1  And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, MAKE US GODS, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Exo 32:22  And Aaron said, LET NOT THE ANGER OF MY LORD WAX HOT: THOU KNOWEST THE PEOPLE, THAT THEY ARE SET ON MISCHIEF.
Exo 32:23  For they said unto me, MAKE US GODS, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

The above repeated in acts.

Act 7:39  To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Act 7:40  Saying unto Aaron, MAKE US GODS to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Act 7:41  And they made a calf in those days, AND OFFERED SACRIFICE UNTO THE IDOL, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Lev 19:4  Turn ye not unto idols, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the LORD your God.

1Sa 6:5  Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, AND FROM OFF YOUR GODS, and from off your land.

2Sa 7:23  And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you GREAT THINGS AND TERRIBLE, FOR THY LAND, BEFORE THY PEOPLE, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, FROM THE NATIONS AND THEIR GODS?

Jos 23:7  That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; NEITHER MAKE MENTION OF THE NAME OF THEIR GODS, NOR CAUSE TO SWEAR BY THEM, NEITHER SERVE THEM, NOR BOW YOURSELVES UNTO THEM:

Jer 16:20  SHALL A MAN MAKE GODS UNTO HIMSELF, AND THEY ARE NO GODS?

God Bless

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 10 2006,09:10)

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 08 2006,23:10) What does it typically mean to say someone is someone's son? Yes, it is literal to me of Jesus.  Not as some figure of speech. Hi Cubes, Tell me what you make of these passages:

I'll try, Is.

Quote

LUKE 1 (NASB) 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Because it is YHWH who overshadowed the Virgin Mary w/ his power to bring about the conception, the holy child born shall be called YHWH's child.

Quote

ROMANS 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

That God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, reaffirmed Jesus to be his Son…Jesus who was made of the seed of David as a man (flesh).

Quote

ACTS 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

How God promised through the fathers that his son (servant, prophet) Jesus would come. How to the sons the promise was fulfilled when Jesus was born and again when he was resurrected.

Quote

HEBREWS 1 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

That YHWH at a certain point in time or pre-time, on earth or in heaven, begot Jesus and declared him to be his Son. and again, when he BRINGETH THE FIRSTBEGOTTEN INTO THE WORLD, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship him.

1. Since I hold to the belief that YHWH IS and that the Word or the Son proceeds from him and have his being in him and is dependent on him as the whole of the holy scriptures attest, that says that I do not believe in an “eternal son” doctrine if that asserts that YHWH and Yeshua always existed concurrently, as the same being or not. “My Father is Greater.”

2. Again, I cannot say in one way or another WHEN Jesus became the son of God. I can say that he was manifested as the Son of God in the flesh at his advent some 2,000 years ago as is written.

This is where FAITH comes in, for it is written: “Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. “

God made a promise to Abraham that through his SEED the world shall be reconciled to him, when as yet Abraham was old and without child and his wife was past childbearing age, etc.

“Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. ”

of Moses it is written:

Hbr 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Of us, the Father says:

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

That is a sure blessing in which we live for Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father which art in heaven…,” yet Rev 21:7 is a promise to be fulfilled for those who endure and overcome in Jesus.

When God says something, it is, though it takes us humans time… in his own time, to visualize or experience it. But then again, that is faith for he who comes to God must believe that he is and that he is faithful.

For this reason, I cannot give you a when as to the nature or intricacies of prophecy and their fulfilment, what transpires unseen regarding them… but WHEN the prophecy is manifested, everyone beholds it like Thomas, and can say, “my Lord and my God” but Jesus says blessed are they who believe when they have not yet seen.

[Cubes]

Quote (Eliyah @ Mar. 10 2006,11:10)

Ah ha, that's exactly right IS 1:18, and there is ONLY ONE FATHER YAHWEH and YAHSHUA MESSIAH, and all the others and rest of the nation's deities , they worship is devils or demons ( See also 1 Cor.10:19-21) for all the gentiles sacrifice or worship to demons not YAHWEH Elohim. And Paul said there was ONLY ONE YAHWEH ELOHIM, and only ONE Yahshua Messiah, and all the rest are false idol deities-ie gods. Paul also said there was NOT THIS KNOWLEDGE IN EVERY MAN EITHER about there being MANY lords and god deities( 1 Cor.8:7), people better stop worshipping idol gods or deities, for there are many ” lords and gods or deities “, Paul writes and says so, but ONLY ONE YAHWEH ELOHIM and Yahshua Messiah.

You would get no argument from us that YHWH is the One and True God for that is our confession and belief exactly.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 10 2006,09:10)

HEBREWS 1 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hi Is,

Sorry, I missed your emphasis in this verse:

I Will be to him a Father
he shall be to me a son

I restate what I said earlier for an answer:

Quote

Of us, the Father says: Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I WILL BE his God, and HE SHALL BE my son. That is a sure blessing in which we live for Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father which art in heaven…,”

In the here and now YHWH is our God and Father and Yeshua our Lord, of all who abide in the True Vine and yet we know that:

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 11 2006,04:18)

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 09 2006,02:38) I am confident that it is all that t8 wishes to show, for it is necessary to show that there are many Gods/gods Hi Cubes, I hope to elaborate on what follows in the weekend. But it seems to me that both t8's and your understanding that there are many lords and gods has its basis in 1 Cor 8:5f (which is why I asked you about it). Indeed it is true, there are many lords and gods – to pagans. If you read that chapter carefully you will see that Paul was actually contrasting Yahshua and the Father from the false gods the pagans worship.

And the conclusion of that verse is that there is ONE GOD THE FATHER. This is the part you are ignoring. To accept truth we must accept what the scripture actually says, not what we want it to say.

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