Who is this Jesus?

[Proclaimer]

John 1:1 says that the Word was god. That the Word had divine nature. Then we are told that the Word became flesh, i.e., that the Word partook of the flesh nature.
It seems from this that the Word swapped divine nature for the flesh and this hypothesis could be backed up by verses that say that he humbled himself when he came to earth and was glorified with the glory he had before, when he returned to heaven.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11 is interesting in that it says that he had the nature of God (divine nature) and then he made himself nothing by taking the nature of a servant, being made in “human” likeness. After this he was exhalted to the highest place by God.

We also know that Jesus is called the Word of God (Logos) in the beginning, and that he is called the Word of God after his resurrection. So he was and now is the Logos of God.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

[kenrch]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 30 2006,10:06)

John 1:1 says that the Word was god. That the Word had divine nature. Then we are told that the Word became flesh, i.e., that the Word partook of the flesh nature. It seems from this that the Word swapped divine nature for the flesh and this hypothesis could be backed up by verses that say that he humbled himself when he came to earth and was glorified with the glory he had before, when he returned to heaven. John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Philippians 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 is interesting in that it says that he had the nature of God (divine nature) and then he made himself nothing by taking the nature of a servant, being made in “human” likeness. After this he was exhalted to the highest place by God. We also know that Jesus is called the Word of God (Logos) in the beginning, and that he is called the Word of God after his resurrection. So he was and now is the Logos of God. Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Ok we know that the Word had the nature of God. Emptied Himself and became flesh. So what was the Word like before flesh? Was He angelic like an archangel

By the way did everyone read all the posts? Their is some good stuff in there.

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 31 2006,04:24)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 30 2006,10:06) John 1:1 says that the Word was god. That the Word had divine nature. Then we are told that the Word became flesh, i.e., that the Word partook of the flesh nature. It seems from this that the Word swapped divine nature for the flesh and this hypothesis could be backed up by verses that say that he humbled himself when he came to earth and was glorified with the glory he had before, when he returned to heaven. John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Philippians 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 is interesting in that it says that he had the nature of God (divine nature) and then he made himself nothing by taking the nature of a servant, being made in “human” likeness. After this he was exhalted to the highest place by God. We also know that Jesus is called the Word of God (Logos) in the beginning, and that he is called the Word of God after his resurrection. So he was and now is the Logos of God. Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. Ok we know that the Word had the nature of God.  Emptied Himself and became flesh.  So what was the Word like before flesh?  Was He angelic like an archangel By the way did everyone read all the posts?  Their is some good stuff in there.

Welcome seekingtruth. Praise God another brother my family keeps getting bigger! Like you I was plesantly surprised to find this fourm. Fasten your seat belt and enjoy the ride

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 31 2006,23:24)

Ok we know that the Word had the nature of God. Emptied Himself and became flesh. So what was the Word like before flesh? Was He angelic like an archangel By the way did everyone read all the posts? Their is some good stuff in there.

Hi kenrch.

Some food for thought:
If we read Proverbs 8:22-30 and John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

————–
John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Compare with Proverbs 8 22-23
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.
————–
Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

Compare with Proverbs 8:24
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.
————–
Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Compare with Proverbs 8:30
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.
————–

Whatever Christ was like as the Word, we know that he is called the Word of God now and that he has a body. But we do not have a lot to go on as far as the pre-existence of Christ. Perhaps the following verses say it best:

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Colossians 1:26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:4
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

[david]

Hey T8, Now that Nick is gone, will you be on here more? Will there be a replacement?

Why he is called “the Word.”
The name (or, perhaps, title) “the Word” (Joh 1:1) apparently identifies the function that God’s firstborn Son performed after other intelligent creatures were formed.
A similar expression is found at Exodus 4:16, where Jehovah says to Moses concerning his brother Aaron: “And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.” As spokesman for God’s chief representative on earth, Aaron served as “a mouth” for Moses. Likewise with the Word, or Logos, who became Jesus Christ. Jehovah evidently used his Son to convey information and instructions to others of his family of spirit sons, even as he used that Son to deliver his message to humans on earth. Showing that he was God’s Word, or Spokesman, Jesus said to his Jewish listeners: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.”—Joh 7:16, 17; compare Joh 12:50; 18:37.

[david]

Doubtless on many occasions during his prehuman existence as the Word, Jesus acted as Jehovah’s Spokesman to persons on earth. While certain texts refer to Jehovah as though directly speaking to humans, other texts make clear that he did so through an angelic representative. (Compare Ex 3:2-4 with Ac 7:30, 35; also Ge 16:7-11, 13; 22:1, 11, 12, 15-18.) Reasonably, in the majority of such cases God spoke through the Word. He likely did so in Eden, for on two of the three occasions where mention is made of God’s speaking there, the record specifically shows someone was with Him, undoubtedly his Son. (Ge 1:26-30; 2:16, 17; 3:8-19, 22) The angel who guided Israel through the wilderness and whose voice the Israelites were strictly to obey because ‘Jehovah’s name was within him,’ may therefore have been God’s Son, the Word.—Ex 23:20-23; compare Jos 5:13-15.

This does not mean that the Word is the only angelic representative through whom Jehovah has spoken. The inspired statements at Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19, and Hebrews 2:2, 3 make clear that the Law covenant was transmitted to Moses by angelic sons of God other than his Firstborn.

As t8 points out, Jesus continues to bear the name “The Word of God” since his return to heavenly glory.—Re 19:13, 16.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Feb. 01 2006,00:03)

Hey T8,  Now that Nick is gone, will you be on here more?  Will there be a replacement?

I will be here more as I have more time now. Things got hectic for a while, but that season seems to have ended.
I am not sure what Nick is doing at this stage.

[Scripture Seeker]

Friends, please take some time and harden not your hearts.

Doesn't Scripture make it extremely clear?
Doesn't the Early Church make it very clear?

Scripture

1) Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son
2) Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God
3) Jesus Christ Claims to be God
4) Jesus' Miracles testify that He is God
5) Jesus Christ is worshiped

The Early Church

a) Jesus is God the Son
b) God is One in Three Divine Persons

Be VERY VERY careful what you say about JESUS.
I know I don't have to explain why.

God Bless

Scripture

[Scripture Seeker]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 31 2006,00:04)

Doubtless on many occasions during his prehuman existence as the Word, Jesus acted as Jehovah’s Spokesman to persons on earth. While certain texts refer to Jehovah as though directly speaking to humans, other texts make clear that he did so through an angelic representative. (Compare Ex 3:2-4 with Ac 7:30, 35; also Ge 16:7-11, 13; 22:1, 11, 12, 15-18.) Reasonably, in the majority of such cases God spoke through the Word. He likely did so in Eden, for on two of the three occasions where mention is made of God’s speaking there, the record specifically shows someone was with Him, undoubtedly his Son. (Ge 1:26-30; 2:16, 17; 3:8-19, 22) The angel who guided Israel through the wilderness and whose voice the Israelites were strictly to obey because ‘Jehovah’s name was within him,’ may therefore have been God’s Son, the Word.—Ex 23:20-23; compare Jos 5:13-15. This does not mean that the Word is the only angelic representative through whom Jehovah has spoken. The inspired statements at Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19, and Hebrews 2:2, 3 make clear that the Law covenant was transmitted to Moses by angelic sons of God other than his Firstborn. As t8 points out, Jesus continues to bear the name “The Word of God” since his return to heavenly glory.—Re 19:13, 16.

David,
How do you like my new avatar ? We know that the Logos was more than angelic representation, it was also God's creative power. God through His Logos made all that was made. So we have a three fold witness (oops did I say three ). The creation, the Word made flesh, and the written Word (Bible).

[Sultan]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,02:57)

Friends, please take some time and harden not your hearts. Doesn't Scripture make it extremely clear? Doesn't the Early Church make it very clear? Scripture 1) Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son 2) Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God 3) Jesus Christ Claims to be God 4) Jesus' Miracles testify that He is God 5) Jesus Christ is worshiped The Early Church a) Jesus is God the Son b) God is One in Three Divine Persons Be VERY VERY careful what you say about JESUS. I know I don't have to explain why. God Bless Scripture

Scriptureseeker,
Welcome. The Bible makes it extremely clear, but no the so- called church fathers do not. For instance you call them church fathers, but Jesus says, ” Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.” (Matt. 23:9). No man is the Father of God's Church. Just as God was Jesus' Father, He is alos the Father of the Church, not man.

[Sammo]

I appreciate your attitude, but I think you need to be a little more critical of the website you posted.

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,07:57)

Doesn't Scripture make it extremely clear?

Absolutely not. If you had never heard of Christianity before and picked up a Bible, do you honestly believe that you would come to the same conclusion as the creeds? Why would the most fundumental Christian doctrine never be taught within scripture?

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,07:57)

Doesn't the Early Church make it very clear?

So far as I'm concerned, what the early church said counts for no more than what the modern church says. Don't forget, the 'in between' church used to burn Bibles…

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,07:57)

1) Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son 2) Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God 3) Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Most of the quotes for these on the website you posted are painfully poorly reasoned – honestly, please have a second look…

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,07:57)

4) Jesus' Miracles testify that He is God

Did the apostles' miracles testify that they were God?

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 31 2006,07:57)

5) Jesus Christ is worshiped

When the apostles were worshipped, did that make them God? Excellent article here: http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1526

The bottom line is: the trinity is never taught in the Bible – certainly not in any of the verses that your website lists.

[david]

Quote

1) Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son 2) Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God 3) Jesus Christ Claims to be God 4) Jesus' Miracles testify that He is God 5) Jesus Christ is worshiped

are you joking?

[liljon]

The apostles worshippped? When. If someone tried to worship them they wouldnt allow it and would say worship only God.

[Sammo]

It's all in the article I linked to. The usage of the word “worship” has changed over time.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Feb. 01 2006,02:57)

Friends, please take some time and harden not your hearts. Doesn't Scripture make it extremely clear? Doesn't the Early Church make it very clear? Scripture 1) Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son 2) Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God 3) Jesus Christ Claims to be God 4) Jesus' Miracles testify that He is God 5) Jesus Christ is worshiped The Early Church a) Jesus is God the Son b) God is One in Three Divine Persons Be VERY VERY careful what you say about JESUS. I know I don't have to explain why. God Bless Scripture

Be VERY VERY careful what you say about JESUS.
I know I don't have to explain why.

It appears that if we speak the truth about Jesus we become heretics for most denominations. Let it be so that if I speak and teach the truth about Jesus that I be considered by man as a heretic. It is what God says about us that matters and that is my only concern.

Fear God, not man.

[Woutlaw]

Right on T8

[Proclaimer]

Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb. Not as God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

[hybrid]

hi guys,

i have a question then about christ's being.

was he begotten or created?

.

[Sultan]

Quote (hybrid @ Feb. 01 2006,11:12)

hi guys, i have a question then about christ's being. was he begotten or created? .

What do you mean”Christ's being”?

[Author]

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