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Dear Gene,no I wasn’t confused about what you call the doctrine of separation and perhaps I should’ve put those words in quotes.
I ask you again quite simply,do you believe in Jesus virgin birth or in the church’s teaching of original sin? That is was Jesus born of a virgin and without original sin? For if he was then he is separate from us for we are not born of virgins and have original sin,whether he preexisted or not.Therefore some of your brethren, that is conservative unitarians, have denied these doctrines to make Jesus fully human like us.
And as far as what you say about 2 Thess, it’s a strange interpretation or plainly twisting the words to make them fit your preconceived notions.
And the book of Hebrews,Colossians and the Gospel of St John plainly declare Jesus to be the “image of God”,which you claim breaks a commandment.Can you honestly say that if someone has seen you they have seen the Father? if not then maybe you’re not a Christian if you are supposed to be just like him.Or maybe Jesus wasn’t just like us or the Jesus of St John was deluded and confused when he said that,along with many other statements in St John’s gospel.
AndrewAD…….why thedidJESUS IN PRAYER SAY TO God the Father this, “YOU ARE THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”. SO if what you believe is true that Jesus was and is a GOS, Then Jesus wad lying when he said that right? The reason Jesus said ifthwy have seen him they have seen the FATHER, is because Jesus was notdoing his own will but the will of him that sent him, just as he said. We must either believe WHAT Jesus said or not when he said clearly ” HE COULD DO “NOTHING” OF HIMSELF”. That does not sound like a God if you ask me. You cannot produce one scripture that shows any activity, performed by Jesus, before his berth on this earth. You doing what all trinitarians do you pick and chose certian scriptures that can be taken many different ways, just check out the words used, like “through” or “by” . The scriptures Where Jesus said to the Father, to give him the glory, he had with him before the foundations of the earth, that simply means JESUS KNEW WHAT HIS PREPLANNED DESTINEY WAS BY GOD THE FATHER, BEFOR GOD CREATED THE WORLD, he was just claiming the position affored him.
What i have told you is the truth, if you understood it ,you could easely see what Paul was saying in 2 Ths 2. This whole world lies in deception of who JESUS actually is, but when he returns he will bolish that “LIE” ABOUT HIM BEING A GOD, as well as THOSE WHO ARE DESPLAYING HIM AS A GOD, JUST AS IT SAYS. READ IT AGAIN, AN CONSIDER IT, COMMON SENSE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THERE IS “ONLY” ONE WHO NOW SITS IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD AND IS BEING DESPLAYED AS A GOD, and that is THE MAN JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………………gene
Gene , How is it you totally ignore what I ask you about major Christian doctrines? the VIRGIN BIRTH !!! or ORIGINAL SIN !!!!! I said nothing about Jesus being God or Trinity! The point is was Jesus a human like us or not? Can you understand that? Do you deny the virgin birth and original sin? If you don’t deny it then your Jesus in not like us whether he be God?god or not!
Have I ever been tempted to turn stones to bread? no! Have I ever been tempted to throw myself off a building with the faith God would save me with his angels? Thank God and the devil -no! Have I been tempted to worship the devil in order to become a world ruler -no! I guess I’m just not much like Christ am I. How about you Gene,are you like Christ?
AndrewAD,
Jesus was born of a virgin just as testified in Scripture and from what I remember Gene also holds that is true.
I think the most likely way is that God took a part of Mary and made Jesus of that part just as Eve was made of a part of Adam. The only difference except for gender is that Jesus was formed as a conceptus and not as an adult.
I do not know what Gene’s thoughts are on this.
Today we humans have the ability to do much the same as we clone animals and manipulate genes. A time may come when virgin birth are common.
AndrewAD,
Some of the tenets of original sin are nonsense. I have no idea what Gene holds but I hold the tenet of total depravity which some claim is derived from a teaching of Augustine of Hippo. I do not know what he teaches but I do know Jesus teaches that we are all slaves of sin unless the Son sets us free. It is a version of the original sin teaching.
If Gene does not answer then try a thread on each one.
Dear Kerwin,
Is Jesus separate from sinners? Did he sin? did he have original sin? did he have sinful thoughts so as to be tempted in all ways like us? If he had sinful thoughts does that make him a sinner like us?
As for the verse you ask it’s Heb 7:26 and please look at any translation of it. And why would you even question it since if Jesus was sinless then of course he’s separate from sinners regardless of the supposed sympathy. Are you still a sinner Kerwin? even after your proper baptism that merits eternal life? if so maybe your proper religious baptism is hogwash.
AndrewAD……Do you actually believe, that because GOD THE FATHER, SUPPLIED JESUS HIS MALE DNA in MARY, THAT THAT MAKES HIM DIFFEREN THEN WE ARE? , THAT WAS NOT EVEN AS GREAT A MIRCALE AS HE DID WITH ADAM, who by the way is also called the “son of God” ALSO. Even EVE’S creation was a greater achievement. JESUS” miraculous conception, did not make him any different then we are as humam beings. Kerwin answered you right that is how i believe it.
As far as sinless is concerned, not child who is born is born a sinner, we all have the potential to sin, even as Jesus had, but he was able to overcome it, by the power of GOD which was with him, we must also master sin by that same power to. What part of this you fail to understand, ” untill we “all” come to the measure, AND “FULL” STATURE OF CHRIST”. Jesus was EXACTLY as we are in every way, he had to be in order to be our example, he had tobe tempted as we are also ,but he overcame by the holy spirit which he recieved at his baptizm in the JORDAN RIVER, and then he was led out and tempted, but not before he recieved the spirit of GOD INTO HIM. HE OVERCAME by the power of God,notb y his own strength , we must also. “He that overcomes “even” as i have”. Do you actually believe you can overcome “even” as he did, if you do then JESUS IS THE SAME AS YOU ARE.
ALL WHO HAVE bought into the ‘LIE”, the “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, will not believe they can “TRULY” OVERCOME, “EVEN” AS HE DID, they have moved JESUS’ exact idenity away from themselves, denying his whole “purpose” of existence. What they are saying is, i can’t overcome as he did because he really was not truly like me, and that is exactly what SATAN wants people to believe. Jesus said about 80 times he was a “son of man”. That meant he wasaborn human being, not a “morphed” being, from another existence. AndrewAD, you simply do not realize the destortion of our text that has taken place over the last two thousand years, by Greek trinitarian influenced translators who have corrupted our texts we have. Remember what PAUL said, that we should beas the breans, and look in s riptures to see if those things said are true or not, and the scriptures he was talking about was the OLD HEBREW TESTEMENT, THEY HAD AT THAT TIME, so if you can substan what you believe from the OLD HEBREW TEXT THEN IT IS TRUE, and that text says this.
GOD SAID HE CREATED THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT,”ALONE” AND BY “HIMSELF”, you either believe him or not. He also said, there is “no” GOD BUT HIM. And we were not to make “ANY IMAGE” of him, in heaven or earth, so the “IMAGE” OF JESUS BEING A GOD IS A “LIE”, IT TURNS OUR IMAGE OF JESUS INTO A “MAN OF SIN”. And all the rest that goes along with that teaching, like his prexistence and him creating everything is also a LIE. IT ALL WAS DESIGNED BY SATAN HIMSELF TO “SEPERATE” JESUS’ BROTHERS AND SISTERS FROM HIM, AND DESTORY THE WORK OF GOD IN HUMANITY. IF YOU DON’T SEE JESUS AS A PURE HUMAN BEING, WHO CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH, YOU SIMPLY DO NOT TRULY SEE HIM. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
AndrewAD,
According to the doctrine of total depravity I hear from Scripture humanity is a slave of sin because they have the flesh to live by but the Spirit. Jesus also had the flesh, aka sinful nature, but he was the first one given the Spirit. He walked by the Spirit through his faith in God as it is written “the righteous live by faith”. We know he had the animal nature of humanity because he was tempted even as we are and we know he had and lived by the Spirit because he did not sin even though tempted by God.
Jesus was tempted but did not have sinful fantasies. Both are thoughts.
I already had pointed out that Jesus had not sinned though tempted as common to humanity so I was unsure what you meant. I also missed Hebrews 7:26 in my search so thank you for the address. So yes, Jesus is separate because he did not sin even though tempted as is common to man.
I have learned much since the last time I was immersed. I cannot say I had heard the true teachings of Christ before making that commitment. I can say I pledged to follow God at that time. I also testify that I am not fully mature in Christ. Faith is to believe you can and will accomplish your goal before you have reached it. So I am confident that I will both receive and live by the Spirit and so do only right if I obey all the teachings of Christ. All things are possible with God. He is not hogwash!
Dear Gene,
So I take it you don’t believe in “original sin’ or that we are born sinners because of Adam’s sin,but we all have the mere potential to sin with no natural inclination to that?That’s fine but what is Paul’s point about through one man’s sin condemnation came to all men.
And what is the point of Jesus’ virgin birth? “how can he be clean that is born of a woman?” virgin birth maybe? And nowhere does the bible say God supplied Jesus his male DNA-that is certainly a rather modern interpretation.
And was Jesus never tempted until he was thirty years old? I sure wish that would’ve been the case with me.
And are you saying the NT is all corrupt by man but somehow God has preserved the OT from corruption?
Gene,
Some teach that humanity bears the guilt of Adam’s sin which is absurd. From what I read you agree with that statement. You also stated that each human has the potential to sin which I agree with. It is unclear whether or not you believe all human beings without the Spirit will sin. Could you please clarify that point for me. Thank you.
Dear Kerwin,
As a former Calvinist myself I understand what you call “total depravity” and it’s no wonder to me that you are such a legalist if you accept all that.But if Jesus had a sinful nature then he must’ve been totally depraved like us right? If he had a totally depraved nature that makes him a sinner like us by default. And do you really think he was never tempted until he was baptized at the age of thirty? The whole point of baptism was repentance of sins which made his baptism by John controversial to begin with.The gospel of Peter has Jesus refusing to be baptized for he had done no sins and the gospel of John never claims he was baptized though it speaks about John the Baptist.
So why be so legalistic about what you think the proper form of baptism is if you still sin afterward? Does your legalistic religious baptism merit eternal life if you’re still a sinner afterward and still require repentance? And did I say “he” was hogwash,whoever he might be? no I said your legalistic baptism might be hogwash if you’re not perfect afterward.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God-thus all will sin by default with the Spirit or not. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb according to Luke so maybe he was the real sinless one.
Dear Kerwin,
“Some teach that humanity bears the guilt of Adam’s sin which is absurd.’ you clearly don’t believe in total depravity with such a statement as this so maybe you should research where the term”total depravity” came from and what it means according to reformed theology.
AddrewAD,
The name of the doctrine of total depravity can be misunderstood by those that lack knowledge. This is so well known that the Wikipedia article addresses the fallacy.
Wikipedia article on total depravity under theology.
The term “total depravity”, as understood in colloquial English, obscures the theological issues involved. Reformed and Lutheran theologians have never considered humans to be absent of goodness or unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. People retain the imago Dei, though it has been distorted.[15]
We do not share the guilt of Adam’s sin though we do the effect in that we are separate from God’s Spirit.
AndrewAD,
Jesus was totally depraved as of the flesh but he was totally pure as of the Spirit. That is why he prayed not “my will but thine”. (Luke 22:42) It also why he told the man who called him good teacher that no one was good but God. (Luke 18:18-19) Jesus lived by the Spirit and not by the desires of the flesh and so did not sin.
Kerwin,yes I know “total depravity” doesn’t mean we are as evil as we can be or the image of God is obliterated in us.It does mean we can’t approach God or Jesus and be saved unless we are chosen/predestined.It’s not our choosing or freewill but Gods’-“no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” and so many others. Total depravity can also be called total inability-that is we can’t be saved through our own natural abilities/freewill but only through the grace of God who calls us. Most Lutherans,Presbyterians,Baptists and others no longer adhere to these doctrines but they were the prominent beliefs of the reformation.Luther and Calvin quoted scripture and St Augustine extensively in defense of this against the RCC and others.
But no Jesus was not totally depraved according to scripture unless he was a sinner too.You may hold to an Arminian idea of original sin but that is not total depravity and even Arminians won’t say Jesus was a sinner or had sinful flesh.
But Dear Kerwin,I do understand what you say in regard to Jesus saying “why do you call me good? there is none good but God” that is a problem verse for many Christians and of course there are many explanations/apologies for that.The Jesus of St John would never say such a thing nor would Pauls’ risen Christ which are the Christs we worship.
AndrewAD,
Certain individuals do have trouble because they do not want to believe Jesus Christ is a human being that had the flesh nature of humanity. His example is too much of a challenge for them to except it is possible as they do not believe all things are possible with God.
Jesus once told his student-followers ” If ye then, being evil,…” (Luke 11:12) which reveals that humanity is evil in its Spiritless state. Only God is good and angels and human can only do all that is good if they walk according to the Spirit and not according to their bestial natures.
Paul and John both speak of the total depravity of humanity as Paul teaches how a believer is set free from slavery to sin (Romans 6:16-22) and John writes of Jesus’ promise that Son will set believers free from sin. (John 8:31-34)
I am tired so I haven’t looked at what the two said about Jesus having a flesh nature.
“is it possible to sin or not after becoming a Christian?” …[b](Post ref.)[/b]
Hi AndrewAD,
2Tim.3:5 and 1John 5:18 suggests you can.
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God bless
Ed J
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