Who is this Jesus?

http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,08:29)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,18:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,00:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,12:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,21:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2013,21:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14)

Hey t

What in my statement about t8 is untrue?

You are showing your bias also!

Quote

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

THIS IS UNTRUE ;we believe in one God but we believe that Christ the “word of God” is a mighty one (god) scriptures are saying this ;LK 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,

Pierre,
You said that it is untrue that you believe in one god the Father and one god the son and then you point out that you believe that there is one God and one god. Isn't your one God…the Father? Is your one god…the Son?

If yes, then what Keith said is true about what you believe.

Kathi

to me their is only one GOD the father that we worship as supreme ALMIGHTY, Christ the son of the father is also a MIGHTY (god) but this is his position ,his glory ,that his father as given to him ,and so he also HIS the WORD OF GOD (SPOKEN PERSON) between God and the rest of creation ,

their are many other mighty ones (gods) what I believe exist does that make me polygamist in my believe in one god I do not think so

Pierre,
You deny that the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning was indeed an eternal life and that leads to your false doctrine, imo.

I believe that the 'Word of the LORD' was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.

Kathi

what you believe is a personal view on what the scriptures do not support ,

MT 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

MT 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

RO 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

were does it say that :THE WORD OF GOD ” is the ETERNAL LIFE

please quote your scriptures

Pierre,
You say that is my personal view that the Son was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning…well, yes, my personal view and also the view of Christians worldwide.

You ask for scriptures to support this before but here goes again:

1 John 1
The Incarnation of the Word of Life

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

If you don't think the Word of Life is the Son, please enlighten Christendom with your personal insight.

Now if you still think that it is my opinion alone, I invite you to read these commentaries on the subject. Who do they think is the Word of Life in John 1, Pierre???

Kathi

The word of God :in John 1:1 his Christ ,the son of God,

But The word of live: that is not Christ,and it is not mention in John 1:1

You are blinded by your ambition to make The son part of his father ,and refuse the words of Paul wen he says that the son his God's first creation,

So I stick to the scriptures ,

August 6, 2013 at 4:49 am#370082

Participant

Pierre,
Are all those commentators in agreement with me or you on who the Word of Life is?

August 6, 2013 at 5:04 am#370081

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,10:49)

Pierre,
Are all those commentators in agreement with me or you on who the Word of Life is?

Kathi

Peter told to Christ he was the only one that has words of live,do you understand that

August 6, 2013 at 2:17 pm#370080

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 05 2013,17:44)

Jesus said to them, 'ye are theos'. He did not say to anyone of them, 'you are a god'. If the Judges were theos, and the Pharisees held the seat of Moses, then they qualify as 'theos'. But that doesn't mean that Nicodemus was a god.

You are right, Jesus never said anyone of them were gods, in fact Jesus never said, “ye are god theos”. That is your assumption.

The scripture says…

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he (the Psalmist) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:35, 36

Jesus is merely quoting the Psalmist and using their own belief against them. Jehovah never said “ye are gods” and neither did Jesus. The Psalmist had called them “gods” and realizes that these wicked rulers and judges would die like men.

Jesus is saying “you believe they were gods then why do you get upset when I claim to be the Son of God”.

The second point is the Hebrew word for gods is plural which means that even if Jesus was saying what you are (ye are theos, which he is not) then it would mean he is saying Nicodemus is “a god”.

August 6, 2013 at 2:19 pm#370079

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,00:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,10:49)

Pierre,
Are all those commentators in agreement with me or you on who the Word of Life is?

Kathi

Peter told to Christ he was the only one that has words of live,do you understand that

Yes, and he was the only one which had the words of life because he is the “Eternal life”.

August 6, 2013 at 2:59 pm#370078

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2013,11:25)

And the scriptures clearly identify Jesus as one of the many lesser gods that Jehovah is the Most High God OF.

Meaning you are a Polytheist or at best a Henotheist.

Where is the scripture that claims Jesus is a “lesser god” along with other so-called gods which are merely idols of men or were worshipped as gods even as satan who rules in the hearts of men today which means he is “a god' to them. But to the Apostles of the scriptures, believers and God himself there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD”.

The Pharaoh of Jesus day was worshipped as god and the Romans calling him Lord meant he was god to them.

Believe the word Mike that there is NO God but ONE!

KJV
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

NKJV
Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.

NLT
So, what about eating meat that has been offered to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God.

NIV
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

ESV
Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

NASB
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

RSV
Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

ASV
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is [anything] in the world, and that there is no God but one.

YLT
Concerning the eating then of the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except one;

DBY
— concerning then the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in [the] world, and that there is no other God save one.
© Info

WEB
Therefore as concerning the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice to idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.

HNV
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one.

Since Jesus claims to be “One” with the Father and that we are in “them” and “they” are in us, put together with the scriptures calling Jesus God, then that means he is One God with the Father!

August 6, 2013 at 3:02 pm#370077

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,21:12)

Good post Keith, not to mention the many times that the definite article IS used with theos in regards to the Son. I think t8 forgets that fact. He can't say he hasn't been shown over and over.

Thanks!

August 6, 2013 at 4:09 pm#370076

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,20:19)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,00:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,10:49)

Pierre,
Are all those commentators in agreement with me or you on who the Word of Life is?

Kathi

Peter told to Christ he was the only one that has words of live,do you understand that

Yes, and he was the only one which had the words of life because he is the “Eternal life”.

show me in all those scriptures ,that CHRIST HIS WHAT HE HIMSELVE GIVES THROUGH HIS FATHER TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN HIM

MT 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
MT 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
MT 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

MK 10:17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
MK 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
LK 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
LK 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
LK 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”
JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
JN 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

JN 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
JN 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

JN 5:39 “ You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
JN 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
JN 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

JN 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
JN 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
JN 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
JN 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
JN 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

JN 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
JN 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
AC 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
AC 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
RO 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
RO 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

RO 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
RO 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

GAL 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
1TI 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
1TI 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
TIT 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
TIT 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1JN 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1JN 2:25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1JN 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1JN 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1JN 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1JN 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
JUDE 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

SINS THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURES THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST THE SON OF GOD IS “THE ETERNAL LIFE” BUT ONLY THAT “THROUGH HIM WE CAN OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE “OR EVERLASTING LIFE, SO AGAIN YOUR TEACHINGS ARE FALSE,

August 6, 2013 at 5:54 pm#370075

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,11:09)

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (the incarnatiion)😉 1John 1:1, 2

How did John as he says “see with his eyes”, “look upon” and “Handle” the word of life which he says was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father if that wasn’t Jesus?

You can't see with your natural eyes or handle with you hands Gods spoken word. So he is speaking of Jesus as the “Eternal life” that was with the Father from the beginning, in whom he says in verse three, we have fellowship with!

August 6, 2013 at 6:09 pm#370074

Participant

Pierre,
The word 'life' can mean different things. You are one life among many here on HN. The Word 'life' in that sentence is another word for living person. Your wife has brought forth new life when she gave birth to your offspring. Here also 'life' is a word for a living person. Pro-choice activists hope to save 'one life at a time.' That is another example where the word 'life' is used for a living person. Life is also something that can be given, which God has given to our lifeless bodies originally and ultimately eternally after these bodies die.

Learn to discern this and you will see more clearly that 'the eternal life' was an eternally living person (the Son) in 1 John 1.

You never answered my question. Do those commentators that I linked you to agree with you or me in understanding that the 'Word of Life' is the Son in 1 John 1?

August 6, 2013 at 7:38 pm#370072

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2013,04:54)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,11:09)

How did John as he says “see with his eyes”, “look upon” and “Handle” the word of life which he says was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father if that wasn’t Jesus?

Hi WJ,

John was talking about the “HolySpirit” in Jesus – remember Jesus died –
and it was God's HolySpirit (in him) that raised him back to life. (Rom 8:11)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 6, 2013 at 7:46 pm#370073

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,09:17)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 05 2013,17:44)

You are right, Jesus never said anyone of them were gods, in fact Jesus never said, “ye are god theos”. That is your assumption.

The scripture says…

Jesus is saying “you believe they were gods then why do you get upset when I claim to be the Son of God”.

The second point is the Hebrew word for gods is plural which means that even if Jesus was saying what you are (ye are theos, which he is not) then it would mean he is saying Nicodemus is “a god”.

Hi Keith,
The subject that says 'ye are gods' is not specified either as Jehovah or the psalmist and perhaps can be read either way, yet it is meant only one way. This video lecture taught by the academic editor of Logos Software, is very enlightening regarding Psalms 82.

You can find the video here (the top video on the page):
http://dawnmarie4.wordpress.com/an-unex….stament

It may not even matter who said 'ye are gods' because there are many elohim but the main thing to realize is that among all other elohim, none compare to Jehovah who is to be OUR God of gods and Lord of lords. No other elohim is to be OUR elohim besides Jehovah, the God of gods and Lord of lords.

I do agree with you that Jesus is not referring to the judges of Israel nor the Pharisees and you will see that the speaker in the video doesn't believe Psalm 82 refers to them either.

I encourage you to watch all of the videos on that page at that link.

August 6, 2013 at 7:58 pm#370071

2besee

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 06 2013,15:15)

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 04 2013,14:55)

WJ,

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

God is not a man.

Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”

James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.

Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?

There is only one God.

Bump for WJ.

This question is being deliberately ignored. If not answered, I will have to take it to the hot seat! Because I would like an answer from a trinitarian, please.

August 6, 2013 at 8:02 pm#370069

Participant

Besee,
I gave you a response to that same question but you did not address it. Did you see it?

August 6, 2013 at 8:03 pm#370070

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2013,19:43)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45)

Regarding Matt 16:16, I am not denying that He is also the Son of God.

But there is no hint of “also” in Matthew 16:16. There is only “THE living God”, and the Son and Messiah OF “THE living God”. Which one of those two is Jesus? Is he THE living God? Or the other one?

They are both living and are both theos and both eternal. It depends on context as to which one is meant.

August 6, 2013 at 8:04 pm#370084

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,11:04)

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 03 2013,20:55)

WJ,

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

God is not a man.

Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”

James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.

Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?

There is only one God.

We know that Jesus did not lie or need to repent either. It seems the message is more about the character of God than His form. The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc. Their character is unchanging.

Yahweh our Righteousness's character is unchanging, no matter the form.

Bumped for 2besee.

August 6, 2013 at 8:05 pm#370068

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,12:54)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,11:09)

How did John as he says “see with his eyes”, “look upon” and “Handle” the word of life which he says was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father if that wasn’t Jesus?

Good post, Keith.

August 6, 2013 at 8:20 pm#370067

Participant

Thanks Kathi!

August 6, 2013 at 9:00 pm#370066

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,02:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,12:54)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,11:09)

How did John as he says “see with his eyes”, “look upon” and “Handle” the word of life which he says was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father if that wasn’t Jesus?

Good post, Keith.

wj and kathi

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.

John does not talk about Jesus being the ETERNAL LIFE ,look what John says next ;

1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1Jn 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1Jn 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

it seems that he says to OBEY GOD'S COMMAND will receive eternal live (everlasting life)

1Jn 2:8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
1Jn 2:9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
1Jn 2:10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

the above scriptures says much about the spirit and mind we should have if we are true believers in Christ

August 6, 2013 at 9:13 pm#370064