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I was wanting to start up a discussion on who the 144,000 are that are stated in Revelations 7 & 14.
I couldnt find a thread already started on this. So here goes.
As, some of you know I like to listen to Doug Batchelor, whom I discovered later that he was a Seventh Day Adventist. I am not saying that he is correct therefore I would love to hear other peoples views on the 144,000 as well.
I have learned, so far, that the 144,000 make up the total of the 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes in Rev 7:5-8. According to Revelations 12 there is a Woman (church) with 12 stars on her head (leaders/apostles). Therefore 12 represents leadership. So, the 12,000 from each 12 tribes are the leaders of Gods (true?) church during the 6000 years. right?
Apparently when these boys were born their mother made a statement. You will also see that the order I have them are the order of what was said in Rev 7. I will show below.
1 Judah = I will praise the Lord (Gen 29:35)
2 Reuben = He has looked on me (Gen 29:32)
3 Gad = Given good fortune (Gen 30:11)
4 Asher = Happy am I (Gen 30:13)
5 Naphtali = My wrestling (Gen 30:8)
6 Manasseh = Making me to forget (Gen 41:51)
7 Simeon = God hears me (Gen 29:33)
8 Levi = Attached to me (married/joined) (Gen 29:34)
9 Issachar = Purchased me (Gen 30:18)
10 Zebulun = Dwelling (Gen 30:20)
11 Joseph = God will add to me (Gen 30:24)
12 Benjamin = Son of his right hand (Gen 35:18)When you line these meanings up it makes a story.. shown below…I have also added the joining words which are shown in italic.
“I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune. I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget. God hears me and is attached to me. He has purchased me a dwelling and will add me to the Son of his Right Hand.”
This is the story of Salvation encapsulated into the very names of the 144,000.
It goes on to say that these 144,000 has a sign in their forehead. It seems everyone in Revelations has a sign to their forehead, ie: Babylon (the Harlot) has a title on her forehead (Rev 17:5)
Exodus 13:9 NIV
9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.Isaiah 8:16 NIV
16 Bind up the testimony and seal up the law among my disciplesThis Law is written in our Minds and our Hearts.
So the sign on the forehead in Revelations is the Seal of God.
According to Doug, Gods Seal contains –
1. His Name
2. His Title
3. His TerritoryExodus 20:11 KJV
For in the 6 days …The Lord (His Name)
Made (His Title (creator))
The Heavens and the Earth (his Territory)And it is the Sabbath that identifies the Creator! (ahh of course Doug) **
7 is evidently an important number in the bible, being the 7th day of the week to be kept Holy, the 7 seals and so on
I wont go any further on the sabbath discussion here.
Anyway, this is what I have learned and I am willing to hear other interpretations of the 144,000.
Hugs
Phoenix** I do not intend to go into a Sabbath debate here. Lets do it in the Ten Commandments thread.
Information from Doug Batchelors Lesson “the truth of the 144,000”
Hi P,
God always keeps a remnant.
Israel is his chosen people.
Few of them accepted his lordship.
The 144,000 are said to be Jews.
Could that be all that are saved from Israel?Hi Nick
Ahhh, so you think the 144k are the fleshly Jews right?
Quote Could that be all that are saved from Israel? Not at all. There are more that are saved in Rev 7:9
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
Do the great multitude in Rev 7.9 include the “OT law abiding ” Jews or are they the rest of the sons of God, those in Christ?Quote Not at all. There are more that are saved in Rev 7:9 Could it be that the great crowd mentioned there are those who inherit the earth, while the 144000 are those who inherit the heavenly kingdom to rule as kings, priests and judges over those who inherit the earth.
A kingdom is a government and God has chosen to have some humans rule in this kingdom so that we are being ruled and judged by those who have experienced similar trials to us and understand human life.Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2007,18:51) Quote Not at all. There are more that are saved in Rev 7:9 Could it be that the great crowd mentioned there are those who inherit the earth, while the 144000 are those who inherit the heavenly kingdom to rule as kings, priests and judges over those who inherit the earth.
A kingdom is a government and God has chosen to have some humans rule in this kingdom so that we are being ruled and judged by those who have experienced similar trials to us and understand human life.
Hi david,
This is JW dogma, pure and simple.
Why would God take some to heaven and some not and why is this not stated in scripture?
In what way would those in authority in heaven exert that authority over those on earth? Perhaps I should not encourage you to wander further into speculative folly.Quote Quote
Not at all. There are more that are saved in Rev 7:9Could it be that the great crowd mentioned there are those who inherit the earth, while the 144000 are those who inherit the heavenly kingdom to rule as kings, priests and judges over those who inherit the earth.
A kingdom is a government and God has chosen to have some humans rule in this kingdom so that we are being ruled and judged by those who have experienced similar trials to us and understand human life.Good Point David… hence the sign of Leadership.
Hugs
PhoenixHi Nick
Quote This is JW dogma, pure and simple. Dont be so judgemental LOL.
Lets take everyones views and interpretation of the Book of Revelations and combine it together. I believe every church has its truth.
Quote Hi P,
Do the great multitude in Rev 7.9 include the “OT law abiding ” Jews or are they the rest of the sons of God, those in Christ?I'm not sure Nick. I am hoping you might be able to explain your view on this and tell us how you see it or interpret it.
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
JW doctrine deserves to be derided as human folly. That in no way is an attack on the people trapped inside that prison who we love and want set free.Rev 7
” 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Two groups.
See Lk 15
One identified as Jews-the older brother?A much larger crowd of folk from all around the world with no identification as Jew or Gentile as are those in Christ-The prodigal son?
psLk 16
16The law and the prophets were until John:[first covenant and chosen people]since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.[second covenant-all welcome]
Hi Nick
Ok let me see if I am understanding you right. You think that the 144,000 are those chosen during the OT times? and the NT times are those of a great multitude right?
Hugs
PhoenixHi Nick
Ok I will take that as a Yes for your answer.
Well, I think thats a possibility. If that were the case then we must be in the Tribulation period now or it has already been.
Hugs
PhoenixHi Nick
Why i think we are in the Tribulation period? Because it says in Rev 7 that the angels were told not to harm the land and seas until all the 144,000 were sealed. So if the 144,000 were those in the OT then the Tribulation should be now or was back then. Right?
Just my thought on that
Hugs
PhoenixHi P,
Good point. So could they be the Jews chosen from this generation while the rest wait under the altar?Hi Nick
Im not sure yet. Till I hear others views on this or until i learn some more then we may come up with a better understanding.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote Why would God take some to heaven and some not
You Nick, could also ask why God created some as angels in heaven and some as physical beings on earth.Quote Two groups.
See Lk 15
One identified as Jews-the older brother?
This, my friend, is human folly, as you say. Your question mark indicates your concerns with this belief. Yes, there are two groups.
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