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Stu: I gotta know why in the world a person that totally disbelieves the Bible spends so much time and effort on a Bible believing site to degrade other people that are reaching out to find peace. I feel sarcasm, hate, disdain, anger, and destructive intentions from your writings on any part of this site that you respond. Its like a person that hates Chevrolet's always going to a Chevrolet website to tell everyone else how stupid they are! Certainly what you bring to this site is destruction.Why not leave it alone? You have more that stated your mental mastery of all that is. Is this same attitude and anger what you take to the world around you? Ah, now I can see how the world has become so cruel and hateful. Only a few Stu's spreading anger, and hate the way you do could permeate the entire world. So when you look at the world around you be sure the if you see hate, anger and frustration, its just your reflection staring back at you. May what you sow be totally what you reap. Count on it! TK (just one of the fools)
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2009,21:02) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,18:51) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2009,17:19) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,08:24) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 26 2009,07:56) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,05:19) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 25 2009,16:57) The concept of covenant is meaningless to me, it appears to be a one-sided contract. How is Paulianity better than Judaism? Stuart
Paul is better because he abolished all the external codes and regulations. If the theocracy was re-instituted as Con wants we would have to keep it terms. So it would have meaning for you if you were forced to live under it. It's a no-brainer that you would rather be free to be an athiest under the gospel age than forced to be a servant under the OC theocracy.thinker
How can you claim that we are in a 'gospel age'? We are in a secular age. Look at what happened to people during the dark ages and medieval centuries that were the “gospel age”. People WERE forced to follow religious mythology as fact on pain of death in many cases. Are you saying that was a great time for humanity?Stuart
So if there is a gospel age you would prefer it over the OC theocracy?thinker
Are you suggesting we compare a theocracy based on the OT with a theocracy based on the gospels?Stuart
What gospel “mandates” are you under? Please list them.thinker
You asked me whether I would prefer an OT theocracy or to “live under the gospel age”. You need to tell me how this would affect me, not ask me. Otherwise I have no idea what you mean. If your “gospel age” is NOT a theocracy then what you are really asking is whether I would like to live in a theocracy or not.
Stuart
Stu,
You know what I am talking about. You continue to be evasive and so I will drop this.thinker
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 26 2009,22:12) Stu: I gotta know why in the world a person that totally disbelieves the Bible spends so much time and effort on a Bible believing site to degrade other people that are reaching out to find peace. I feel sarcasm, hate, disdain, anger, and destructive intentions from your writings on any part of this site that you respond. Its like a person that hates Chevrolet's always going to a Chevrolet website to tell everyone else how stupid they are! Certainly what you bring to this site is destruction.Why not leave it alone? You have more that stated your mental mastery of all that is. Is this same attitude and anger what you take to the world around you? Ah, now I can see how the world has become so cruel and hateful. Only a few Stu's spreading anger, and hate the way you do could permeate the entire world. So when you look at the world around you be sure the if you see hate, anger and frustration, its just your reflection staring back at you. May what you sow be totally what you reap. Count on it! TK (just one of the fools)
Hi Tim,I disagree with you. Stu is a pretty decent human being/ape guy.
I've had several conversations with him that have been pretty thought provoking. I've spent too many years only hearing one side of the story. It's refreshing to me to hear another view…..Love,
MandyQuote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 26 2009,22:12) Stu: I gotta know why in the world a person that totally disbelieves the Bible spends so much time and effort on a Bible believing site to degrade other people that are reaching out to find peace. I feel sarcasm, hate, disdain, anger, and destructive intentions from your writings on any part of this site that you respond. Its like a person that hates Chevrolet's always going to a Chevrolet website to tell everyone else how stupid they are! Certainly what you bring to this site is destruction.Why not leave it alone? You have more that stated your mental mastery of all that is. Is this same attitude and anger what you take to the world around you? Ah, now I can see how the world has become so cruel and hateful. Only a few Stu's spreading anger, and hate the way you do could permeate the entire world. So when you look at the world around you be sure the if you see hate, anger and frustration, its just your reflection staring back at you. May what you sow be totally what you reap. Count on it! TK (just one of the fools)
Didn't notice Stu made a point of stirring up all those negative emotions you seem to think he does.Did notice that he usually has a rational and reasonable point of view and has at least some grounding in science (a good thing in my opinion at least). He's actually pretty open minded compared to a lot of people here, going by his responses to some of the posts I've made (on topics most here won't confront at all).
I'm pretty sure if you came up with a solid proof (proof as opposed to simply insisting it's the truth) for God and/or the veracity of the Bible he'd consider it and if it were solid enough quite possibly accept it.
If believe in the absolute truth of the Bible is a requirement of this site – you may as well accuse me of the same things. I only put credence in the Bible inasmuch as sometimes there is an ability to correlate with more scientific data sources, and many myths and legends have at least some basis in truth.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 26 2009,22:12) Stu: I gotta know why in the world a person that totally disbelieves the Bible spends so much time and effort on a Bible believing site to degrade other people that are reaching out to find peace. I feel sarcasm, hate, disdain, anger, and destructive intentions from your writings on any part of this site that you respond. Its like a person that hates Chevrolet's always going to a Chevrolet website to tell everyone else how stupid they are! Certainly what you bring to this site is destruction.Why not leave it alone? You have more that stated your mental mastery of all that is. Is this same attitude and anger what you take to the world around you? Ah, now I can see how the world has become so cruel and hateful. Only a few Stu's spreading anger, and hate the way you do could permeate the entire world. So when you look at the world around you be sure the if you see hate, anger and frustration, its just your reflection staring back at you. May what you sow be totally what you reap. Count on it! TK (just one of the fools)
I assume you are not a 'fool' in the sense that Ps 14:1 calls me. How am I suposed to feel about that? Respectful? How do you think cancer sufferers should feel when they read your lame nonsense about sin being a cause of cancer?None of what I write is aimed at you personally, I aim to challenge you on the ideas you carry in your head, just as I hope to be challenged on any ideas I have in mine that do not stack up. That is something I feel you have not achieved.
If your set of doctrines is not something you can defend from my fairly simple challenges then I'm not sure what value it has.
You don't know me at all, how do you presume to judge my wider view of the world? I rather think if you bothered to stop and think about what I write you will find that it is not me that has the pessimistic and miserable view of my fellow humans. How ridiculous would it be for me to be genuinely angry at gods that do not exist? I do get worked up about what the christian delusion makes humans say.
Love the christian but point out the nonsense that he believes. That is the point. It could be that christianity brings out the worst in both of us.
Stuart
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 27 2009,03:48) Stu,
You know what I am talking about. You continue to be evasive and so I will drop this.thinker
No I do not know what you are talking about. It seems to me you are playing a game of he who is not my enemy is my friend.Stuart
Thanks Douglas and Not3.
I have no choice but to reserve a tiny sliver of possibiliy that the christian worldview (even a literalist one) is what is actually going on in the universe. My chief interest that brought me here originally was creationism. I have come to have confirmed my prejudice that fundamentalists do not care about the best model of the universe, they only promote the story that they think most closely matches their own version of christianity, and I'm afraid to say that for many it seems to necessitate either cultivated ignorance or lies.
That tiny sliver of possibility that anyone committed to a scientific method of epistemology must reserve for a religious worldview is no bigger than when I first posted here. I would not deny that people could feel a perception of some kind of personal benefit from such a belief system as christianity, but I am no closer to being convinced that it represents anything more than placebo.
In the absence of any unambiguous evidence for the god described in Judeo-christian scripture, I think the agnosticism common to all can be interpreted from an atheist point of view with no inconsistency at all.
Stuart
Stu: I apologize for my previous post. I was having a bad day and took some of it out on you. Thats not a good excuse but it is my excuse! Sorry, TK
TK do you actually believe that a person with cancer has necessarily been ethically negligent in some way? I don't just mean that he has smoked knowing that there is a causal link between smoking and lung cancer, but are you saying that he has committed acts that are morally wrong by the torah or are against the supposed teaching of Jesus and as a result has contracted cancer?
Stuart
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 27 2009,21:32) Stu: I apologize for my previous post. I was having a bad day and took some of it out on you. Thats not a good excuse but it is my excuse! Sorry, TK
TK,
You should not have apologized. Stu is not “reasonable” and would never concede a point to a Christian even if he knew he should. He is totally antagonistic toward Christianity and is without any objectivity whatsoever.thinker
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 28 2009,02:27) TK do you actually believe that a person with cancer has necessarily been ethically negligent in some way? I don't just mean that he has smoked knowing that there is a causal link between smoking and lung cancer, but are you saying that he has committed acts that are morally wrong by the torah or are against the supposed teaching of Jesus and as a result has contracted cancer? Stuart
Stu: No not by a long shot! I am the last one on this site that you will hear say that works of any kind make you better or worse in Gods eyes or physically speaking either. Even back then the religious Jews had all kinds of cleansings of hands, and washings and many ritualistic practice's to keep from disease. Jesus told them, it is not what goes into the body that defiles it or makes is unclean or sick—its what comes out of the man that causes his inner illness. From within our minds we formulate and speak out things we feel and believe. We are constantly forming the person that we are by the exchange of information and what we accept as truth and what we reject.Much frustration. Lashing out at others. The world around us is telling us multiple things that we choose to either accept as truth to us or reject as lies. I knew when Jesus came to earth part of his mission to save mankind was by healing their sicknesses and diseases. Yet even Jesus power was bound when people were in unbelief. Like in his home town he could do no mighty works because of their unbelief. They thought hey this is just ol' Jesus the carpenters son.
Sickness and disease IMO comes from energies that flow through our bodies constantly. When there is love in the energy it flows freely but if there is dark energy like strife, anxiousness, fear, hate, resentment and such the energy is blocked up and cannot flow freely. Hence, dis-ease! There is far to much to go into right now but I believe that sowing love in this world was not just a cute little idea that God came up with. It has to do with how we are made.We are from love and we are made out of love/God. Our energy fields (aura's) are affected by what we, as Jesus said, build our spiritual house's/bodies with. I believe that there are sicknesses and cancers and aids type disease's flowing in and around us constantly. Its only when they slow down, and swell up (like energy attracts like energy) in an area of the body, that sickness begins to eat away at life. Positive attitude alone can help heal, I have heard of people laughing away a sickness. (kinda hard to do, huh) As far as the Bible
I don't believe that anything anyone could do could be good enough to make them acceptible to God and I don't believe that they could do anything bad enough to be rejected by God. Do's and don'ts in this life are choices you make freely. The very idea that we are trying to get to Heaven is not true and cannot be found in the Scriptures. IMO you and everyone else is a birthright born a child of God with an opportunity to experience this amazing earth realm that God made for us to enjoy and do things that cannot be done in any other world. Religion has robbed mankind for thousands of years with lies to control the masses and live high with lots of money. It has paralyzed the truth for years. I've spent over 20years in my office at home, before 5am every day learning the truth for myself with no outside influence from churches or preachers. Now most of them won't talk to me! I write so poorly you probably won't get what I wish I could say. I hope somewhere in this letter there is an answer to your question. I would like to send you some of my writings about the Bible if you have any desire.—– [email protected]— God Bless you, sorry again, TKQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,03:00) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 27 2009,21:32) Stu: I apologize for my previous post. I was having a bad day and took some of it out on you. Thats not a good excuse but it is my excuse! Sorry, TK
TK,
You should not have apologized. Stu is not “reasonable” and would never concede a point to a Christian even if he knew he should. He is totally antagonistic toward Christianity and is without any objectivity whatsoever.thinker
Hmmm. Good point!Stuart
TK
If you are a fan of the KJV (which I am!) then you get this extra little bit of medical mysticism:
John 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
The old “angel-troubled water” cure!
Of course the troubling thing from the point of view of the subject of sin bringing cancer is Jesus saying this to the man he had healed:
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
So while I am pleased to see you deny that you ascribe disease to sin, and have a mystical Eastern cause (Reiki?) in mind instead, christian mythology DOES attribute disease to sin.
Stuart
Stu: I know that everybody says that the Bible is only truth and every word is the truth and God inspired the writers and on and on but what I have found after looking up over ten thousand words that the translators had much latitude as to what the orator was intending to say. One example that strikes me in the KJV where Jesus said,— heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away—The greek word that was translated “pass” can equally mean, go away or come near! Same word, opposite directions. All the conjunctions used in the Bible are put in by the translators. Hebrew and Greek languages do not have conjunctions. Go and sin no more could rightly be go (in) sin no more. She was law minded and believed she was in sin. Jesus was more accurately saying live you life and stop thinking you are in sin. IMO sin has always been an error in thinking that you are separated from God. Whether something said or done sin is believing that God is upset, mad, angry or just flat went away from you. Thinking incorrectly,Adam believed in good and evil.Then Adam felt fear for the first time and hid from God. He never asked for forgiveness. God never said Adam you sinned. God never said to Adam that is would be a sin to choose evil. God told him, if you do choose evil, you will eventually die! At that time there was only good in the garden. Evil was a thought lie. A deceiving thought. A devil doctrine. If we are Gods children and the life/force spirit of God dwells within us and we have the mind of Christ then we are gods! You might say why then do we not see the power of God work in our lives? I think we are,thats why things are so messed up. We predominately think and speak negatively. The problem is we have not paid attention to clearing and cleaning our minds of destructive energy. Some of the deceiving thoughts we have swallowed are, you are unworthy, you are a sinner, you have no power, your not good enough, you must do this, or do that to cleanse yourself. Actually, thinking you are unclean is what makes you unclean. There is so much religion wrapped around what Jesus came to say and do that if I took it all away at one time no one would listen. Few do now.
Keep pressing these people on this site as to what sin is. Did God declare something as sin. Is there a list of sins? Didn't Jesus take away our sin? By telling us the truth! One last scripture I thought of, John 9:3—-they brought a blind man to Jesus and ask this question: WHO DID SIN, THIS MAN OR HIS PARENTS that he was born blind!! Which one, the man or his parents. Which sinned? Jesus said, NEITHER HATH THIS MAN SINNED NOR HIS PARENTS: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him I must work the works of God—he was healed no doubt. Must go, talk later, TKTK
Quote Stu: I know that everybody says that the Bible is only truth and every word is the truth and God inspired the writers
Not me!Quote and on and on but what I have found after looking up over ten thousand words that the translators had much latitude as to what the orator was intending to say. One example that strikes me in the KJV where Jesus said,— heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away—The greek word that was translated “pass” can equally mean, go away or come near! Same word, opposite directions. All the conjunctions used in the Bible are put in by the translators. Hebrew and Greek languages do not have conjunctions. Go and sin no more could rightly be go (in) sin no more. She was law minded and believed she was in sin. Jesus was more accurately saying live you life and stop thinking you are in sin. IMO sin has always been an error in thinking that you are separated from God. Whether something said or done sin is believing that God is upset, mad, angry or just flat went away from you.
So things went wrong for god at the Tower of Babel then. He passed his words on in useless languages that fail to communicate his exact meaning, when he could have avoided the whole business by not petulantly losing his temper in Genesis 11. Bit of an own goal, don’t you think? Unless his goal is actually to carry on confusing humans for his own amusement.Quote Thinking incorrectly,Adam believed in good and evil.Then Adam felt fear for the first time and hid from God.
So not omniscient either then!Quote He never asked for forgiveness. God never said Adam you sinned. God never said to Adam that is would be a sin to choose evil. God told him, if you do choose evil, you will eventually die!
Is “eventually” another of the words that isn’t in there but should be?Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die
Doesn’t say ‘eventually’. Surely the serpent was right!
Quote At that time there was only good in the garden. Evil was a thought lie. A deceiving thought. A devil doctrine. If we are Gods children and the life/force spirit of God dwells within us and we have the mind of Christ then we are gods! You might say why then do we not see the power of God work in our lives? I think we are,thats why things are so messed up. We predominately think and speak negatively. The problem is we have not paid attention to clearing and cleaning our minds of destructive energy. Some of the deceiving thoughts we have swallowed are, you are unworthy, you are a sinner, you have no power, your not good enough, you must do this, or do that to cleanse yourself. Actually, thinking you are unclean is what makes you unclean. There is so much religion wrapped around what Jesus came to say and do that if I took it all away at one time no one would listen. Few do now.
Keep pressing these people on this site as to what sin is. Did God declare something as sin. Is there a list of sins? Didn't Jesus take away our sin? By telling us the truth! One last scripture I thought of, John 9:3—-they brought a blind man to Jesus and ask this question: WHO DID SIN, THIS MAN OR HIS PARENTS that he was born blind!! Which one, the man or his parents. Which sinned? Jesus said, NEITHER HATH THIS MAN SINNED NOR HIS PARENTS: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him I must work the works of God—he was healed no doubt. Must go, talk later, TK
I would agree with you if you are saying that sin is a nonsense concept invented by the Abrahamic religions, but I am struggling a bit to see how you can dismiss it from their point of view. I love the way Jesus has to be asked the John 9:3 question twice! It is an interesting counter to John 5:14 though.Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
The “original” sin was to disobey god… is that a law that still applies?
Stuart
Hey Stu: IMO man never disobeyed God because God (later revealed by Jesus as love) does not command or control or tell one what to do or not do. Love is not self seeking. Love seeketh not for itself. In the same way if I told my child don't touch that burner or you will get burned, if she takes it upon herself to see and experience that, she will get burned. The burn was enough punishment I'm sure not going to spank her to. God had gone to great lengths to create a world for man and give him the total freedom of choice. Here is a key thought. Jesus said God is ONE! In ONE there can be no choice. If God encompasses everything and is everywhere then there is no outside of God/source. So if God is one and God is truth then there is only truth, in God. Any information outside of the truth is an illusion of truth. There cannot be truth outside of the one truth/God. Yet man was given total control of his life to believe and create just like his father/God. Evil (live backwards) was a created illusion of there being an opposite to God. It was a lie.It is un-truth. This illusive thinking is what is called in religion, the devil. Thoughts against life and peace in a man,when expressed, begin to create death and frustration. God is absoulte therefore no opposite exists in him. This illusion of man was everything reversed from the truth. God/life, evil/death! From that point on Adam had separated himself from oneness or union with God. Everything became split into opposing forces. Two sides of each energy force. Adam split God in his mind!Not in truth. Adam began to grade everything as good and bad, right and wrong etc.. Adam created the idea of sin. For me positive is the opposite of negative but one is not good or better than the other. When they are brought back into balance/oneness/united they are perfect. From the perspective of One/God then sin cannot exist. Sin is an error. There may be choices you make that you like or don't like but they are not right or wrong unless they enter into another mans space. Man created ideas (religion) about how to get back to God or get into his good graces. This is the beginning of religion which started perverted and went downhill. I believe the gods and lords of the old testament were man created identities mixed with the true God of all. I used to believe it all until I saw what Jesus said, that God is love. I follow Jesus because of his power works and loving truth. To me, what he says goes! I believe he is the truth to be with God. He sealed his authenticity by supernatural power works far above natural man. Since the old covenant is done, finished, superseded by a new covenant I have spent very little time there.
I probably should not even post this. This is obviously my thoughts and they are yet incomplete. Im short of time, I will try again, thanks,TKQuote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 29 2009,23:33) I think we should all join in fellowship at Stu's church. Whats for dinner Stu? 
What about TK's church?Stuart
TK you have transferred your allegiance from the mythology of OT characters giving credit to their god for wartime victories and the like to the mythology of Jesus, who might have existed, and might have said the things you think he did, but surely did not walk on the surface of water or walk again after death. It has been determined that virgin birth (in the form of parthenogenesis) is not possible in humans, making that another Jesus myth.
He wasn't 'raised from the dead', he didn't perform miracles and you actually don't know what he really said, for exactly the same reasons that you rejected the other stuff.
What myth would be next?
Stuart
Hey Stu: Everything in your brain/mind that you have garnered and put away in your memory has happened by choosing to accept the information or reject the information as it came your way. If you did not personally experience the information it is all mythical! All information that is not first hand experienced by an individual leaves the possibility of un-truth, error, out right lies, mis-communication, mis-understanding, mis-perception etc.! On every level we choose what we believe to be truth. All of it. If Jesus didn't live or do the things written then probably Washington didn't cross the delaware and Columbus didn't discover America and so on. Truth is what you decide is truth for you, unless it is a first hand experience. If one did decides to follow Jesus the myth and he ruled his life by believing that whatever you sow in life that is what you will reap and do unto others as you would have them do for you, things would be a bit better in this world. Never condemning anyone for anything they do, that doesn't affect your space or somebody elses, is rather peaceful. Believing you are a perfect creation with a loving heart does tend to make one feel better and help others. Knowing that love is creative and positive and ever moving up and creating more of itself and knowing that hate, anger, stress, lies and deceptions do bring down and kill and smother life. Religion mixes the two by saying God loves you but watch out on a bad day he might wipe out your entire neighborhood! One will move on eternally one will destroy itself. Whether it is truth or myth we don't know. Whether it would be a better way to live we probably agree. Bless you, TK
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