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Kathi,
What Scripture verse says that Jesus has the EXACT NATURE as his Father?
An d what is “ETERNAL NATURE” (Eternal is a State – Nature is Feature/Characteristic. For instance: You can't 'SEE' that the Nature of that someone is ETERNAL)
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:30) Kathi, The Creed is MANMADE… And you know that it has been messed around with over time …
How can they be “Co-Eternal” if one was “BEGOTTEN”.
Kathi, explain to me what “BEGOTTEN” means in this context, to you.
And explain how Jesus is “ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN” (What on earth or in Heaven does that means anyway…!) if he DIED…!!!
Istari,
I put the creed up to show you that Christians believe that the Son was begotten before the ages because you said:Quote Even the Trinitarians (as exampled by WJ and Trinis are by far the largest group of “Eternal Son” believers) do not believe that Jesus was Begotten before time. If the Christians believe the creed, therefore they believe that the Son was begotten before time.
The creed has been adjusted. The term 'eternally begotten' is in some of the newer versions and I think that was a bad move. I have found from reading the church father's writings that there are different understandings on this. I agree with those who believe it means that the Son was begotten during eternity, hence 'eternally begotten.' Then there are those like Keith that say He wasn't begotten at some point during eternity but was always begotten which I think causes great confusion and people say that they do not understand it but believe it anyway, it's a mystery. So, I think that there is another term 'eternal generation' which I have come to understand and fits with what I am saying that the Son was always present within the Father.
Quote And explain how Jesus is “ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN” (What on earth or in Heaven does that means anyway…!) if he DIED…!!! Like I said, only His flesh died, that which pre-existed His flesh did not die but returned to the Father and three days later was reunited with His flesh and then glorified.
Kathi
Kathi,
you say “and then was begotten…possibly begotten by the Father's word, not necessarily through some labor and delivery process.”
but earlier you said “I don't believe that God willed a Son into existence with His thoughts.”
Word and thought are the same to God (God does not think what he does not say – unlike humans) so you are contradicting yourself here…
I can't go through all your points as it is 2:43am in the UK)you say “Well only God creates purely from His will. Any other spirit creature does not create or procreate.(1) God says that He beget a Son and He is spirit, therefore, God as spirit, does beget as Son.(2)”
(1) How did Jesus CREATE all other things (Even if God created through Jesus that still means that Jesus created but the credit goes to God! The man punched a nail into the wood – Well, He didn't actually directly – it was THROUGH (using) the Hammer!! The Hammer punched the nail through the wood – Who actually did the work?!!)
(2) All the other creatures in Heaven are ALSO SPIRITS – Who Begot them?Kathi,
Was not the Creed force fitted and ratified by the Romans – The ABOMINATION (Standing where it should not) – The very Enemies of God and Christ?
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:37) Kathi, What Scripture verse says that Jesus has the EXACT NATURE as his Father?
An d what is “ETERNAL NATURE” (Eternal is a State – Nature is Feature/Characteristic. For instance: You can't 'SEE' that the Nature of that someone is ETERNAL)
Istari,Heb 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Our nature is temporal, His nature is eternal. The eternal-ness of His nature is necessary for Him to be God. He must have an eternal aspect to His nature and we must not otherwise we would be God and not created out of something completely new outside of God' substance.
Kathi
Kathi,
The great Confusion is because people started questioning the ILL-LOGIC of the Creed – IT NEVER MADE SENSE except to those who had to LIVE by it or else DIE BY IT.
Even today – WJ knows he is badly wrong but HAS to keep believing in himself because it is his livelyhood…same as my friends who run churches – It's their Job and mainstream people are their bread and butter…
Jesus said these are the ones to avoid. “he who will not DIE for truth, and I am Truth – is not worthy on me, and I am LIFE!” (my quote)
Kathi,
Yes, I thought that verse would be what you would post…
This is what I am trying to show across the forum: The verse refers to the RISEN CHRIST – for God gave him the POWER AND AUTHORITY to BE HIS Exact Radiance to uphold all things by it.
Read the verses without PREJUDICE:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, (PAST)
in these last days (LATE PRESENT)
has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things (PRESENT – When does Scriptures say Jesus was Appointed Heir! Who is an Heir?)
through whom also He made the world (PAST)
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power (PRESENT)Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:51) Kathi, you say “and then was begotten…possibly begotten by the Father's word, not necessarily through some labor and delivery process.”
but earlier you said “I don't believe that God willed a Son into existence with His thoughts.”
Word and thought are the same to God (God does not think what he does not say – unlike humans) so you are contradicting yourself here…
I can't go through all your points as it is 2:43am in the UK)you say “Well only God creates purely from His will. Any other spirit creature does not create or procreate.(1) God says that He beget a Son and He is spirit, therefore, God as spirit, does beget as Son.(2)”
(1) How did Jesus CREATE all other things (Even if God created through Jesus that still means that Jesus created but the credit goes to God! The man punched a nail into the wood – Well, He didn't actually directly – it was THROUGH (using) the Hammer!! The Hammer punched the nail through the wood – Who actually did the work?!!)
(2) All the other creatures in Heaven are ALSO SPIRITS – Who Begot them?
Istari,Quote you say “and then was begotten…possibly begotten by the Father's word, not necessarily through some labor and delivery process.” but earlier you said “I don't believe that God willed a Son into existence with His thoughts.”
Word and thought are the same to God (God does not think what he does not say – unlike humans) so you are contradicting yourself here…
He existed within and later was begotten. His original existence was not an act of will…He simply always was.
At the appropriate time, the Father beget Him from the Son 'hidden within the Father' to the Son working alongside the Father and that begetting was initiated by the will of God.Quote you say “Well only God creates purely from His will. Any other spirit creature does not create or procreate.(1) God says that He beget a Son and He is spirit, therefore, God as spirit, does beget as Son.(2)” (1) How did Jesus CREATE all other things (Even if God created through Jesus that still means that Jesus created but the credit goes to God! The man punched a nail into the wood – Well, He didn't actually directly – it was THROUGH (using) the Hammer!! The Hammer punched the nail through the wood – Who actually did the work?!!)
(2) All the other creatures in Heaven are ALSO SPIRITS – Who Begot them?God created the raw materials as new creations not from eternal substance within God but new, never existing raw materials, imo, and then gave the word as to what to make from that to His Son and the Son brought all things into existence from those raw materials. We can't know for sure now but that is my theory.
Kathi
Kathi,
Remember that when Jesus was on earth he was EXACTLY man – but sinless.
Jesus said that ALL THE THINGS HE DID Others could do – IF THEY HAD FAITH – Jesus didn't do anything that another of Mankind couldn't have done.
When the Jews accused him of blasphemy for forgiving Sin (Leading to false belief that he is God) what did Jesus reply? Did Jesus say “Yeah, that's cos I'm God!”
Overall did he not say that The “Son of Man” had the ability to forgive sins. And that the law was made to protect Man because their hardheartedness – not to make them hardhearted and strangle them with (Man is Lord of the Sabbath – the Sabbath was made for man – not Man for the Sabbath)So when Jesus was on Earth – He was NOT GOD (As Trinitarians think!)
– And also Kathi, NO SPIRIT DIES (Can only be DESTROYED), so Jesus' spirit not dying is no different to any other person's Spirit NOT Dying – so that excuse is totally MOOT! (That point also goes to all Trinitarians as well)
Kathi,
You have a very FERTILE imagination…(perhaps there is a link there!)
It was good dialoguing with you but I must leave and get to bed.
Istari,
I forgot to answer this part in that last post:
Quote (2) All the other creatures in Heaven are ALSO SPIRITS – Who Begot them? The other creatures in heaven were not begotten, they were created from new substance…not eternal substance. The Father created them through the Son.
Quote Was not the Creed force fitted and ratified by the Romans – The ABOMINATION (Standing where it should not) – The very Enemies of God and Christ? The Creed was written by the first ecumenical council.
An ecumenical council (or oecumenical council; also general council) is a conference of the bishops of the whole Christian Church convened to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine and practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_councilThey were not the enemies of Christ but wanted to make a document to clarify their common beliefs in the effort to bring unity.
KathiGood night Istari…there in the UK it is the middle of the night.
Big yawn! Thanks for staying up and the 'sharpening' that went with it. I will try to answer the rest of your questions tonight.
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,21:13) Kathi, Yes, I thought that verse would be what you would post…
This is what I am trying to show across the forum: The verse refers to the RISEN CHRIST – for God gave him the POWER AND AUTHORITY to BE HIS Exact Radiance to uphold all things by it.
Read the verses without PREJUDICE:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, (PAST)
in these last days (LATE PRESENT)
has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things (PRESENT – When does Scriptures say Jesus was Appointed Heir! Who is an Heir?)
through whom also He made the world (PAST)
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power (PRESENT)
Istari,Quote And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power (PRESENT) I agree with your 'past and presents.' Saying someone 'is' such and such doesn't imply that they weren't that beforehand, ya know.
The passage doesn't say that He BECAME the radiance of His glory, just that He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature…He has always been that, imo.
As far as being appointed heir of all things. I know as the 'firstborn' from the dead which is according to the flesh, He has many brethren and as that firstborn of many brethren he was appointed all things perhaps. What the 'all things' means I do not know. I do know that He gives eternal life and that believers are considered joint heirs with Christ. I also know that Jesus said while He walked the earth that all things the Father has are mine which would befit Him according to His pre-existence as the literal only son and helper in creation. Naturally if He were the same nature as the Father, He would have all things that His Father has being that they are both deity natured.
Kathi
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,21:25) Kathi, Remember that when Jesus was on earth he was EXACTLY man – but sinless.
Jesus said that ALL THE THINGS HE DID Others could do – IF THEY HAD FAITH – Jesus didn't do anything that another of Mankind couldn't have done.
When the Jews accused him of blasphemy for forgiving Sin (Leading to false belief that he is God) what did Jesus reply? Did Jesus say “Yeah, that's cos I'm God!”
Overall did he not say that The “Son of Man” had the ability to forgive sins. And that the law was made to protect Man because their hardheartedness – not to make them hardhearted and strangle them with (Man is Lord of the Sabbath – the Sabbath was made for man – not Man for the Sabbath)So when Jesus was on Earth – He was NOT GOD (As Trinitarians think!)
– And also Kathi, NO SPIRIT DIES (Can only be DESTROYED), so Jesus' spirit not dying is no different to any other person's Spirit NOT Dying – so that excuse is totally MOOT! (That point also goes to all Trinitarians as well)
Istari,Quote Remember that when Jesus was on earth he was EXACTLY man – but sinless. Well, He was a man, true, but exactly like man, no. No other man had the history of creating the world and sharing in the Father's glory.
Quote Jesus said that ALL THE THINGS HE DID Others could do – IF THEY HAD FAITH – Jesus didn't do anything that another of Mankind couldn't have done.
When the Jews accused him of blasphemy for forgiving Sin (Leading to false belief that he is God) what did Jesus reply? Did Jesus say “Yeah, that's cos I'm God!”
Overall did he not say that The “Son of Man” had the ability to forgive sins. And that the law was made to protect Man because their hardheartedness – not to make them hardhearted and strangle them with (Man is Lord of the Sabbath – the Sabbath was made for man – not Man for the Sabbath)Could another of mankind die and take on the sins of the whole world? No. Jesus could because He was perfect in every way. A righteous man cannot die for the sins of even one other man.
I'm not sure your point about the law and the sabbath.
There, I think that I am caught up now.
Kathi
Kathi,
Do you mean that Jesus is inside God through the Spirit of Holiness just as God is inside Jesus by the Spirit of Christ. In the same way both are inside those that believe by the Spirit of God and theose that believe are inside the father through the Son via the Holy Spirit.
That is the description of the unity of the Spirit.
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,19:56) Kathi, Even the Trinitarians (as exampled by WJ and Trinis are by far the largest group of “Eternal Son” believers) do not believe that Jesus was Begotten before time.
Until i heard you saying what you are trying to say hear i'd never (thought provokingly) heard of this idea…
Kathi, unless i have been placing my head in the sand can you tell which Church believes this idea of yours, please?
JAOnce again that is right. I love Kathi but she has her own “personal” understanding of the “creeds” and does not hold the “Orthodox Trinitarian” view that most Christians hold today. While it is true that not all Trinitarians agree in everything, the biggest difference Kathi believes is that the Holy Spirit is not a “another” person. That is totally apposed to the creeds and the majority of Christendom today.
Also, she believes that the Father and Jesus are 2 Gods or beings and Jesus had a “beginnnig” as the begotten son, again that goes against mainstream of Christianity.
To be honest though, I am having a little trouble understanding her statements that Jesus was always in the Father as a Son for the Father was always a Father, but at some point he came forth as the “begotten son” but it was not through conception or procreation.
Maybe she can clarify?
WJ
Keith,
At least I have an understanding of the creeds. The trinitarians that are around today don't understand and just say that it is a mystery. Well, I don't believe that God wants the creed of our faith to be so mysterious. That sounds like a cult leader saying that you must believe in this mystery. How can someone defend their faith which is summed up in a creed if they don't understand it themselves. Also, much of my understanding is reflected in the early church writings and John Gill and others that I have shown you. I have a difference with calling the Holy Spirit the inner person of God instead of the third person of God. I believe that the Spirit being the 'inner person' is what the scriptures are also teaching. Let's discuss it if you want, in an appropriate thread.Also, if I say that the Son ALWAYS existed within the Father, then the beginning when He was begotten (the offspring brought forth), wasn't a beginning of existence but a beginning in the sense of being the Father's helper as His only begotten Son. Before He was begotten, He existed ready to help the Father. See the difference? He is like the Father's 'tool' except He is a person with His own mind and will…a mind and will that is perfect like the Father's except He has the mind and will of a perfect Son, not of a perfect Father.
Love you too,
KathiQuote (kerwin @ April 23 2011,00:20) Kathi, Do you mean that Jesus is insite God through the Spirit of Holiness just as God is inside Jesus by the Spirit of Christ. In the same way both are inside those that believe by the Spirit of God and theose that believe are inside the father through the Son via the Holy Spirit.
That is the description of the unity of the Spirit.
Hi Kerwin,
That is not what I am saying. We can discuss this in the hot seat thread you made about my views.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,12:07) Before He was begotten, He existed ready to help the Father. See the difference?
Hi KathiNo I don't understand.
Was Jesus “another being” in the Father?
If begotten to you does not mean “concieved”, “born”, or “procreated”, but “brougth forth” then why couldn't his begetting be after he came in the flesh or was resurrected?
It seems to me that if he was not “concieved”, “born”, or “procreated”, then he could not be a litteral Son.
Was the Father the unbegotten God before Jesus was begotten?
WJ
WJ,
Two ends of apparent reality join forces against a clearly errant middle grounder… Neither hot nor cold but Luke warm (Hmmm – where have I heard that saying before?)I think, Kathi, you should adopt one or other of the positions or views of either Trini or Anti- Trini because, to be honest, even though you have successfully replied with some semblance of an answer to my questions, the reality is that they make no sense and are hotch potch.
I did not demand explanations for an end to end view as I was hoping you would see the missing points in your arguments. For instance, for Jesus to have made himself a Sacrifice he would HAVE TO HAVE LET GO OF EVERYTHING HE HAD.
What SACRIFICE would Jesus have made if he was STILL OWNING ALL HE HAD BEFORE.
Even Jesus was not absolutely sure that he could be raised up again and agonised over it to the extent that he almost asked his Father to take another path but recovered himself.After overcoming EVERYTHING he was able to take up his glory AGAIN. Not just that same glory, though, but GREATER GLORY.
Kathi, as in all cases, HOW does Jesus take up GREATER GLORY if he were ALREADY totally SON OF GOD exactly like God… Logic, Sense, Reality, says then that he either wasn't EXACTLY LIKE GOD – but NOW IS… or, He is now GREATER THAN GOD his Father!!
And further more – why compare his new position to that of the Angels.
That is not a logical comparison level.
The Angels are not, and never were, inheritors of the kingdom of God… Was Jesus ever said to be Heir to God prior to his being raised from the dead?
When DID Jesus become the King to sit on David's throne?
When DID Jesus become the heir to God's throne?
When DID Jesus become High Priest to his God?Are not all the answers to these questions: After he was raised up, after he accomplished ALL, when God his Father gave him ALL (Including the Holy Spirit) and made him the head of the church.
And something everyone seems to forget about: Adam… What was the fulfilment that Jesus completed in becoming the SECOND Adam… AND what would have happened if Adam HAD NOT SINNED?
Remember, Adam failed to do something that Jesus completed – what was that? Else why did Jesus come AS the Second Adam?
Remember:
Adam, (First) SON OF GOD
Jesus, (replacement) SON OF GOD
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