When did the devil fall?

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,11:12)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:59)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

God's messengers brought cursing to the people. From my understanding, Job was being cursed by one of God's faithful messengers. These messengers who brought cursing were called saw-tawns by the people.

My understanding of the adversary in the book of Job is not defining the word as a proper name, but as a title to one of God's messengers.

You must have missed many of my posts on how I understand the WORD X!t (saw-tawn) in the bible, or else you would not have bothered to ask me such questions. The Hebrew word that means the same as adversary in English, must in scripture, be understood on an individual basis according to it's surrounding text.

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

HI Jodi,

Your answers are not so clear here?
Could you correspond them to each question numbered 1-4 please?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Jodi,

I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 30, 2010 at 2:44 pm#218243

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 30 2010,06:13)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 29 2010,21:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,20:37)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,19:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,17:20)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

Hi Jodi,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right, I may have more
in common with them than you do.

The World Wide Church of God, is that Herbert W Armstrong?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No worries Ed J.

Yes, Hebert W. Armstrong was the leader of the WWC of God.

LOL OMGOSH!!!!

LOL YOU FOLLOW THAT GUY!!

I been wondering for the longest time what WWC was all about!!!

lol its from that armstrong guy all along,

My gosh i read his books, lol…
I remember how i felt when i was reading his books,

lol Totally was not lead by the Spirit.

My gosh…

Glad to amuse you through your FALSE notions.

I do not follow that guy, I said I belonged to his church until I was 19.

Of course 19 is the age you break away from your parents and their religion and start to think on your own.

You might just have more religious beliefs in common with that guy then do I. I hope you enjoy laughing at that.

Now how old are you, and with what Church were you raised?

Actually!
I was amused because you said you go to the same church as gene and the rest.

which was wwc right?

i was under the impressionn that it was PCOG but i made that correction already right after that post,
The writings that “That guy” made really are false and dangerous stuff.

^see above^,

Sometimes thats what happens when you are 19,
When i was 19 i was basically thrown out.

Lol Actually i have nothing in common with him,
lol i just found it funny, because it clicked in my head that all this sounds familiar.

lol im 21 =)
I was raised in several churchs,
typically got stuck in a “full gospel” church.

Nothing in common?

You believe in Lucifer and fallen angels don't you? You believe Jesus pre-existed, don't you?

ACTUALLY, you were amused because I said I went to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene?

I don't find that honest, and it's written in your OWN WORDS!!

“LOL YOU FOLLOW THAT GUY!!

lol its from that armstrong guy all along,

lol Totally was not lead by the Spirit.”

So you are telling me NOW that you weren't really laughing because you thought I followed that guy, even though that is what you clearly wrote you were finding amusing?….good grief…

September 30, 2010 at 6:13 pm#218254

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 30 2010,06:19)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,11:12)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:59)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

My understanding of the adversary in the book of Job is not defining the word as a proper name, but as a title to one of God's messengers.

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

HI Jodi,

Your answers are not so clear here?
Could you correspond them to each question numbered 1-4 please?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Jodi,

I'm still waiting for you to answer these questions.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

Given what I have already explained, your questions seem absurd to me but I will answer them to please you.

1.) NO

2)We are all adversaries against ourselves- We are SINNERS aren't we? Specifically though, in the book of Job, the adversary inflicting Job is not Job, but is God, done so through His messenger.

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

4.) God gave Job boils through His messenger called by the people as an adversary.

Here is a more in depth explanation to my understanding of the Book of Job,

The first usage of the Hebrew word X!t (saw-tawn) in the bible is used for one of God’s faithful messengers.

Numbers 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went : and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him…..32 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

This saw-tawn is a faithful messenger of God but an adversary to man. Which is exactly what we see in the book of Job.

Job 1:10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

Notice the adversary says to God, “stretch out YOUR hand and touch all that he has” The adversary works THROUGH the power of the Holy Spirit. The adversary obeys God and does exactly what God tells him to do. Job and all other men in the book, as well as God Himself attribute Jobs suffering as coming from God. Notice the following in red-

Job 1:13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said,“The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!

The messenger of Job said it was “THE FIRE OF GOD”.

Job says later on –

Job 33:23 “Yet if there is an angel on his side as a mediator, one out of a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, 24 to be gracious to him and say, 'Spare him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for him'—25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's; it is restored as in the days of his youth. 26 He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. 27 Then he comes to men and says, 'I sinned, and perverted what was right, but I did not get what I deserved. 28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, and I will live to enjoy the light.'

29 “God does all these things to a man– twice, even three times– 30 to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him. 31 “Pay attention, Job, and listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have anything to say, answer me; speak up, for I want you to be cleared. 33 But if not, then listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom.”

Job attributes his suffering as coming from YHWH by an ANGEL OF YHWH. This makes perfect sense given the fact that scripture tells us that God brings forth cursing, darkness and calamity, that HE ALONE does these things, there is NO OTHER,

I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

Notice the afflictions Job receives in verses 1:14-1:19 and how they are the same as the following.

Isaiah 40:24 Scarcely shall they be planted, Scarcely shall they be sown, Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth, When He will also blow on them, And they will wither, And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.

Isaiah 66:15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.

Jeremiah 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury— A violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.

Jeremiah 25: 32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.

Nahum 1:3 The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

Exodus 5:3 they said, “The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.”

Leviticus 26:6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid; I will rid the land of evil beasts, and the sword will not go through your land.

Isaiah 1:20 But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword”; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Deuteronomy 28:7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

Deuteronomy 28:48 therefore you shall serve your enemies,whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.

2 Kings 1:10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

The same goes for the afflictions Job received to his body-

NKJ Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

YLT Job 2:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.' 7 And the Adversary goeth forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smiteth Job with a sore ulcer from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Deuteronomy 28:27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.

28:35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head.

People feared God’s angels for they were God’s instruments that brought the cursing. These messengers were seen as ADVERSARIES unto the people.

1Ch 21:7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.” 9 The Lord said to Gad, David's seer, 10 “Go and tell David, 'This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'” 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the Lord says: 'Take your choice:12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the Lord–days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.' Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.” ….13 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown. 17 David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? O Lord my God, let your hand fall upon me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.”…..26 David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. He called on the Lord, and the Lord answered him with fire from heaven on the altar of burnt offering. 27 Then the Lord spoke to the angel, and he put his sword back into its sheath.……. 30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God, because he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord.

God’s angels were certainly to be feared, both by sinners and the righteous!!

Jeremiah 20:11 But the Lord is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashame
d, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten. 12 But, O Lord of hosts, You who test the righteous, And see the mind and heart, Let me see Your vengeance on them; For I have pleaded my cause before You. 13 Sing to the Lord! Praise the Lord! For He has delivered the life of the poor From the hand of evildoers.

Psalms 7:8 The Lord shall judge the peoples; Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, And according to my integrity within me. 9 Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds.

1 Thess 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

Look how God tested Abraham,

Genesis 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”……….

11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

To be asked to kill your own son, is a rather deep infliction to the heart. Did God bring this on Abraham because he sinned? No it was strictly for the sake of testing and teaching.

God tested the Israelites in the wilderness-

Ex 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

De 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Israel in the wilderness was TESTED. At times God withheld from them food and water. He knew their hearts would be exposed and that they would curse Him. God knew that they had a great deal to learn, and that infliction works for instruction.

The adversary in the book of Job was RIGHT, Job did live with a hedge around him, and with that hedge Job was very ignorant of God and who God was. God KNEW this as well, this is why he brought the suffering onto Job through His messenger, for He knew that Job needing testing and instruction.

One only needs to read the book of Job to see Jobs extreme lack of understanding of God.

Job 40:1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: 2 “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it.” 3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 “Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. 5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

Now if God would have had the wilderness full of milk and honey, would they have been tested? Would they have learned anything?

Would Job have learned anything if he continued to live his pampered life? Would Job have truly known the LORD if he were never tested?

There is a profound lesson in the book of Job!! This was a story told orally through many generation, but it’s meaning and value has been LOST, it has been twisted in away that has created a false god.

The people saw God’s messengers that brought cursing as adversaries, but what they really were and are, are God’s instruments for testing and instruction. When you get through reading the ENTIRE Book of Job, I would think such should be clear, if people can release their indoctrination.

The angel in the Book of Job was not a malevolent fallen angel, jealous of God and a hater of man. He was a faithful servant of God doing his job, seeking out those who needed testing and refinement.

The story is told in a way that causes you to think like Job thought at first….here is an upright man receiving undeserved infliction, however by the end you are to see things as Job did, his infliction was necessary, and the adversary who presented himself before the LORD had GOOD CAUSE to motivate God to inflict Job.

October 1, 2010 at 12:51 am#218284

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 1, 2010 at 3:16 am#218313

Baker

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 03 2010,06:57)

Nick, ^Gene,
Demons are fallen angels.

Arnold,
I cannot contend with extreme ignorance.
Please accept my refusal to answer your infant grade questions.
Perhaps when you attain a level if adult understanding, perhaps then we can dispute.

Don't you dare talk to my dear Husband like that. He has studied for hours in the row, and I for one believe that He does more for mankind then you ever know. So keep you attack to yourself. It is not right to get personal. You claim to be in the Spirit, yet say something that is Satanic in nature. Keep your comments to yourself…..Irene

October 1, 2010 at 3:40 am#218319

Baker

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 30 2010,06:13)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 29 2010,21:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,20:37)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,19:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,17:20)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

Hi Jodi,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right, I may have more
in common with them than you do.

The World Wide Church of God, is that Herbert W Armstrong?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No worries Ed J.

Yes, Hebert W. Armstrong was the leader of the WWC of God.

LOL OMGOSH!!!!

LOL YOU FOLLOW THAT GUY!!

I been wondering for the longest time what WWC was all about!!!

lol its from that armstrong guy all along,

My gosh i read his books, lol…
I remember how i felt when i was reading his books,

lol Totally was not lead by the Spirit.

My gosh…

Glad to amuse you through your FALSE notions.

I do not follow that guy, I said I belonged to his church until I was 19.

Of course 19 is the age you break away from your parents and their religion and start to think on your own.

You might just have more religious beliefs in common with that guy then do I. I hope you enjoy laughing at that.

Now how old are you, and with what Church were you raised?

Actually!
I was amused because you said you go to the same church as gene and the rest.

which was wwc right?

i was under the impressionn that it was PCOG but i made that correction already right after that post,
The writings that “That guy” made really are false and dangerous stuff.

^see above^,

Sometimes thats what happens when you are 19,
When i was 19 i was basically thrown out.

Lol Actually i have nothing in common with him,
lol i just found it funny, because it clicked in my head that all this sounds familiar.

lol im 21 =)
I was raised in several churchs,
typically got stuck in a “full gospel” church.

Mr/ Armstrong never was dangerous, maybe you think so. That is your opinion. We learned how to read the Bible there. We came out of the Catholic Church were we never read the Bible…. So again keep you attacks to yourself. Mr. Armstrong had some good doctrines, but not the New Covenant. He changed by the time we joined, and some of the stuff like Lipstick and etc. was yet not aloud, but that is about the only thing that I can remember I disagreed with….. So your laughing is uncalled for….. He probably knew more then you do….He believed that the Sabbath was a Law and we kept it for about 10 years when God opened our minds to new truths like the New Covenant and the great commandments…… And even the Lipstick was later OK to do…. The one thing that I still don't do is Christmas and Easter. I believe that they are originally pagan, and not Christian…..Our Daughter still says today how nice it was, we all felt like Family…. That you will never have in other Churches. Also God's Feast's listed in Lev. 23 were wonderful to keep…. Irene

October 1, 2010 at 4:13 am#218322

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2010,07:58)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2010,08:52)

Hi,
The devil, Satan the Serpent of old still can seek permission to test us as with Peter.[Lk22.31, Rev 2.10]

The hedge protection of God needs to be prayed for.[Jb1-2, Mt6]

Nick……A least you understand that Job had a Hedge protection around Him, But all are tested and tried also, Peter said that we are Tried, ” NOW CONCERNING THIS FIERY TRIAL THAT HAS TRIED YOU AS IF SOME STRANGE THING HAS HAPPENED UNTO YOU”, and again, “FOR GOD DISCIPLINES US AS A FATHER DISCIPLINE HIS CHILD AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON HE EXCEPTS.Job needed GOD'S discipline at that time in his life to prevent him from future problems, so God us the Spirit of an Adversary to bring about his discipline needed.

Even Paul used it to save some , by turning them over to this Adversarial Spirit in order that in the resurrection they would be saved.

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

gene

you keep this up and you be like the pharisees and sadducees

and there father as Jesus mention.

Pierre

think……

October 1, 2010 at 6:02 am#218329

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.

Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?

October 1, 2010 at 6:42 am#218332

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.

Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?

Hi Jodi,

The question is pretty straight forward…

What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?

Looking forward to your response!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 1, 2010 at 5:36 pm#218341

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.

Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?

Hi Jodi,

The question is pretty straight forward…

What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?

Looking forward to your response!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Good Morning Ed J,

Jobs lack of wisdom was in the fact that he questioned God as being a righteous judge.

Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice.

Does God WRONG anyone? Job's thoughts and words were certainly without knowledge, for God IS a RIGHTEOUS judge who would never wrong anyone.

Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent.

Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?

Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,

Job compares YHVH to man, then accuses Him of destroying the blameless and he even tells God to leave him alone!

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

Job 33:6 Truly I am as your spokesman before God; I also have been formed out of clay. 7 Surely no fear of me will terrify you, Nor will my hand be heavy on you. 8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, 9 'I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. 10 Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; 11 He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.' 12 “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man. 13 Why do you contend with Him?

Job 34:5 “For Job has said, 'I am righteous, But God has taken away my justice; 6 Should I lie concerning my right? My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.' 7 What man is like Job, Who drinks scorn like water, 8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity, And walks with wicked men? 9 For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.' 10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice. 13 Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world? 14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

…….. 18 Is it fitting to say to a king, 'You are worthless,' And to nobles, 'You are wicked'? 19 Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands.

1 Samuel 2:7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.

YHVH brought Job down making him poor and diseased.

There is never a question about Job accusing the wrong person for his infliction. The scriptures discuss that Job was wrong for considering that God had NO RIGHT to do what he did, that God was WRONG, that God was being a wicked judge against him.

20 In a moment they die, in the middle of the night; The people are shaken and pass away; The mighty are taken away without a hand. 21 “For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment. 24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, And sets others in their place. 25 Therefore he knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, And they are crushed. 26 He strikes them as wicked men In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him, And would not consider any of His ways, 28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him; For He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?– 30 That the hypocrite should not reign, Lest the people be ensnared. 31 “For has anyone said to God, ' I have borne chastening; I will offend no more; 32 Teach me what I do not see; If I have done iniquity, I will do no more'? 33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.”

Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.

The adversity that Job faced we are told directly came from YHVH. Scripture is clear that there is NO ONE else like Him. YHVH ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means. God warns man that to denote these POWERS to another is to create a FALSE gOD.

Job is shown clearly to be without knowledge because he questions God's judgment and righteousness, believing that he is not deserving of God's inflictions of which He performed through His Faithful Messenger.

October 1, 2010 at 11:16 pm#218358

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.

Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?

Hi Jodi,

The question is pretty straight forward…

What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?

Looking forward to your response!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Good Morning Ed J,

YHVH brought Job down making him poor and diseased.

There is never a question about Job accusing the wrong person for his infliction. The scriptures discuss that Job was wrong for considering that God had NO RIGHT to do what he did, that God was WRONG, that God was being a wicked judge against him.

Hi Jodi,

If not the evil malevolent entity that Jesus and the Apostles
speak of in the New Testament, who is Satan mentioned here?

Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered
the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and
down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that
there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God,
and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for naught?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on
every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the
land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy
face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon
himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1-7 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among
them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan,
From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From
going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD
said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him
in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy
him without cause. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a
man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and
his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold,
he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of
the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

If not the evil malevolent entity that Jesus and the Apostles speak
of in the New Testament, who is Satan that is mentioned here?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 2, 2010 at 2:48 am#218370

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 02 2010,10:16)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?

Hi Ed J,

3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.

Hi Jodi,

What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.

Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?

Hi Jodi,

The question is pretty straight forward…

What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?

Looking forward to your response!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Good Morning Ed J,

YHVH brought Job down making him poor and diseased.

Hi Jodi,

If not the evil malevolent entity that Jesus and the Apostles
speak of in the New Testament, who is Satan mentioned here?

If not the evil malevolent entity that Jesus and the Apostles speak
of in the New Testament, who is Satan that is mentioned here?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

The WORD X!t in scripture is shown NOT to represent the name of ONE being.

Numbers 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went : and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary( X!t) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him…..32 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand (X!t) thee, because thy way is perverse before me:

The Angel OF the LORD was a SATAN, or rather adversary to man but not God. This SATAN was against man, but was not malevolent, he was working for God working for Good.

This is the SAME as with the adversary in the book of Job.

The adversary in the book of Job was most certainly NOT Peter, but by your logic Ed J, we might as well say he was, shall we?

Is this malevolent entity you believe in Peter, or the Planet Venus? Which one is it Ed J?

The adversary asks for God to stretch out His hand….why?….because the adversary is a messenger of God, where God gives the messenger powers and trusts him to carry out His will, therefore God stretching out His hand is done through the messengers own hand by the POWER given to him by God.

We see ample example of this in scripture where God uses His messengers to carry out what is ult
imately His will. God said He would Bless and Curse and He sent eyes to roam to and fro about the earth to watch over man and judge him.

Ed J, the adversary in the Book of Job never disobeys God, he follows Gods commands exactly.

Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.

Ed J,

Do you just pretend the above scripture does not exist? ALL the adversity came from YHVH by His Power at the hand of HIS FAITHFUL Messenger.

You asked, “What were Jobs words without knowledge, if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?”, and I have given you a proper response, but you just ignore it, WHY? You have jumped to asking me more questions, not addressing at all the last question I respectfully took the time to answer. Can you show how what I posted is in error? Can you show us scripture that states that Job was without knowledge because he blamed God for his cursing, calamity and darkness, when he should have been blaming PETER or the Planet Venus (Lucifer in Latin)?

October 2, 2010 at 3:46 am#218376

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,13:48)

Ed J,

The adversary in the book of Job was most certainly NOT Peter, but by your logic Ed J, we might as well say he was, shall we?

Hi Jodi,

You mean by ‘your logic’, don't you?

October 2, 2010 at 3:47 am#218377

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,13:48)

Ed J, the adversary in the Book of Job never disobeys God, he follows Gods commands exactly.

Hi Jodi,

Are you implying that God wanted Job to be afflicted
and that Satan was just lending God a helping hand?

October 2, 2010 at 3:48 am#218379

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,13:48)

Ed J,

Do you just pretend the above scripture does not exist? ALL the adversity came from YHVH by His Power at the hand of HIS FAITHFUL Messenger.

Hi Jodi,

Do you believe Satan to be God's faithful messenger?

October 2, 2010 at 3:48 am#218380

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 24 2010,04:00)

You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?”

That’s a good question, I really don’t know. What do you think?

Hi Jodi,

The evil malevolent spiritual entity called the Devil and Satan; who you deny!

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

October 2, 2010 at 3:49 am#218381

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,13:48)

Ed J,

You asked, “What were Jobs words without knowledge, if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?”, and I have given you a proper response, but you just ignore it, WHY?

Hi Jodi,

I don't ignore it, I deny it!
What specifically do you want me to address?
Please only ask one question per Post so I can give a thorough answer; OK?

Quote

Can you show how what I posted is in error?

Showing you and you accepting it can be two entirely different things!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 2, 2010 at 12:17 pm#218412

Baker

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,02:26)

Arnold,

“Why do you not understand my mode of speech!” -Is there anyone who understands me yet?

I do NOT believe in any way shape or form that the world was created in 7 (rotations of the earth on it's axis) days … Goodness Gracious George … I was just going along with SF's timeline…

In any case, your questions are valueless: You start out when it is formless – and then jump straight to (proposed) Man existing on it, missing out all the creation 'days'. The questions are INCONGRUOUS.

But just to answer you – No, he would not!

BTW, the post is about When did Satan Fall.

This is to no one in particular and to everyone:

Please – Can the Person who initiates a Post, please try to control what is Posted in it.

If you ask another poster to refrain from posting non-post discussion and they do not refrain then please contact a Moderator.

It is easy enough to start a thread (Thanks t8) for any topic you wish to discuss – even one that is already in full flow.
hopefully this will keep each post more direct – sharper – to the point, as it where —>

If you noticed, my response was to “SimplyForgiven”
I am glad to see you don't believe in the 7 days creation.
Yes, the question is; when did Satan fall?
Satan was what he became when he rebelled against God; his name was Lucifer.

Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This shows that heaven and earth had already been created.
Verse 13 says, he will ascend into heaven; that shows he was on earth.
We know that a third of the angels followed him in his rebellion, Rev. 12:4; that shows the angels were here with him; the question is, for what reason, or purpose?
Lucifer means, light bringer, bright morning star.
Jesus said, he is the light of the world; light is a term used for truth.
Just as we have to learn the truth about God's law and commandments, so did the angels. Lucifer was put in charge to administer those laws to the angels.
That is when he was overcome with pride, thinking, he should be worshiped. He was able to convince a third of the angels to rebel with him.
Jesus said, “I beheld Satan as lightening fall from heaven”, Luke 10:18, in other words, his rebellion failed.
The fact that we know the earth is billions of years old, should tell us, all this happened billions of years ago.
God then withdrew his Holy Spirit which upholds all things, and the earth became void, and empty.
I hope that will help you with, when did Satan fall?

Georg

October 2, 2010 at 5:17 pm#218425

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?