When did the devil fall?

Participant

Hi Jodi,

I'll import them here for you; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 22, 2010 at 1:33 pm#217156

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,16:12)

Hi Mike,

I LOVE Philippians 2!

We see a pattern in the OT of men who are full of pride, not acknowledging the gifts of YHWH, or acknowledging them only for a time and then turning their backs on Him. The King of Tyrus who received power and wisdom from YHWH is the perfect example of this, and he took it so far as to declare himself a god.

Hi Jodi,

Please explain to us all here, how the king of Tyrus was in the garden of Eden?

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Also please explain to us all here, why the king of Tyrus is being called the anointed cherub that covereth?

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

Since you mention the king of Tyrus, surly you should know the answers to these questions!

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

September 22, 2010 at 1:33 pm#217157

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 27, 2010 at 4:37 pm#217870

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,16:12)

Hi Mike,

I LOVE Philippians 2!

Hi Jodi,

Please explain to us all here, how the king of Tyrus was in the garden of Eden?

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Also please explain to us all here, why the king of Tyrus is being called the anointed cherub that covereth?

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

Since you mention the king of Tyrus, surly you should know the answers to these questions!

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying , 2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up , and thou hast said , I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: 6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. 10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers : for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying , 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created , till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned : therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isaiah 51:3 For the Lord will comfort Zion, He will comfort all her waste places; He will make her wilderness like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the Lord; Joy and gladness will be found in it, Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.

Ezekiel 36:35 So they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.'

Ezekiel 31:1 Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: 'Whom are you like in your greatness? 3 Indeed Assyria was a 1cedar in Lebanon, With fine branches that shaded the forest, And of high stature; And its top was among the thick boughs. 4 The waters made it grow; Underground waters gave it height, With their rivers running around the place where it was planted, And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field. 5 'Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field; Its boughs were multiplied, And its branches became long because of the abundance of water, As it sent them out. 6 All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young; And in its shadow all great nations made their home. 7 'Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches, Because its roots reached to abundant waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it; The fir trees were not like its boughs, And the chestnut trees were not like its branches; No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty. 9 I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches, So that all the trees of Eden envied it, That were in the garden of God.' 10 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height, 11 therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12 And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it. 13 'On its ruin will remain all
the birds of the heavens, And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches– 14 So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them. 'For they have all been delivered to death, To the depths of the earth, Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.' 15 “Thus says the Lord God: 'In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations. 18 To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,' says the Lord God.”

Ed J,

The king was NOT LITERALLY in the Garden of Eden, just as the Pharaoh was not literally a tree in the Garden of Eden. The King of Tyrus and the Pharaoh were given an abundance of blessings from God. Dwelling under God’s blessing and protection represents being in the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God.

…14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire
Nations that blessed Israel God would bless, nations that didn’t would be cursed.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say , Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come , and say , Come , and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Psalms 80:1 Give ear , O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth

Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

If you are likened to a cherubim or said to be placed on the holy mountain of God, both represent to be dwelling within the house of God.

Ed J, the scriptures specifically address the King, the King is being called a cherubim, the king is being said to have been placed on the holy mountain, the king is being said to have been wiser than Daniel, the king is being said to have lifted himself up because of his beauty and corrupted himself from his wisdom, and it is the king that God cast down and laid before the kings.

Nowhere in scripture does any cherub sin against God. Ezekiel is not talking about a cherub. The king is being likened to a cherub AT THE TIME the KING walked with God on God’s mountain, once the KING SINNED, the king could no longer be likened to a cherub.

September 27, 2010 at 4:59 pm#217873

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

God's messengers brought cursing to the people. From my understanding, Job was being cursed by one of God's faithful messengers. These messengers who brought cursing were called saw-tawns by the people.

My understanding of the adversary in the book of Job is not defining the word as a proper name, but as a title to one of God's messengers.

You must have missed many of my posts on how I understand the WORD X!t (saw-tawn) in the bible, or else you would not have bothered to ask me such questions. The Hebrew word that means the same as adversary in English, must in scripture, be understood on an individual basis according to it's surrounding text.

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

September 28, 2010 at 12:11 am#217895

Participant

Hi Jodi,

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
Please explain to us all here, how the king of Tyrus was in the garden of Eden?

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:37)

Ed J, the king was NOT LITERALLY in the Garden of Eden, just as the Pharaoh was not literally a tree in the Garden of Eden. The King of Tyrus and the Pharaoh were given an abundance of blessings from God. Dwelling under God’s blessing and protection represents being in the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;
Also please explain to us all here, why the king of Tyrus is being called the anointed cherub that covereth?

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:37)

So you believe the trees in the Garden of Eden to be literal trees rather than people?
You also believe the king of Tyrus and Pharaoh to be compared to trees in this Garden; correct?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 12:12 am#217896

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:59)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

My understanding of the adversary in the book of Job is not defining the word as a proper name, but as a title to one of God's messengers.

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

HI Jodi,

Your answers are not so clear here?
Could you correspond them to each question numbered 1-4 please?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 12:12 am#217897

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 24 2010,04:00)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,01:36)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2010,01:20)

Ed J,

Satan means adversary, right?

Hi Jodi,

Yes; now will you answer my questions?

If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…

2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.

1) Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?

1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.

2) Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?

1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

3) Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

4) Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?

Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

5) Just exactly who is being bound here?

Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

6) Who is being loosed out of his prison?

These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?

Hi Ed J,

Since you didn't think my first response was satisfactory, here's more-

2 Corinthians 11:25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness– 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.

2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices .

You asked, “Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?”

The Satan is the HUMAN AUTHORITIES who’s devices or plans are to beat, imprison and kill Christ’s followers. Sorry I don’t have the specific names of the people who actually beat Paul and drug him into prison. Have you heard of Nero Ed J?…. he was certainly the DEVIL and the SATAN at Paul’s time !!

1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?”

1 Thes 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire.

Who imprisoned Paul and kept him from traveling?…. surely not a spirit being, that is pure foolishness!!

It was a human authority of course!!

1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?”

That’s a good question, I really don’t know. What do you think?

This is interesting-

Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. 21 When these things were accomplished, Paul purposed in the Spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome.” 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, but he himself stayed in Asia for a time. 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, d brought no small profit to the craftsmen. 25 He called them together with the workers of similar occupation, and said: “Men, you know that we have our prosperity by this trade. 26 Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands. 27 So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, e whom all Asia and the world worship.” 28 Now when they heard this, they were full of wrath and cried out, saying, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 29 So the whole city was filled with confusion, and rushed into the theater with one accord, having seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians, Paul's travel companions. 30 And when Paul wanted to go in to the people, the disciples would not allow him. 31 Then
some of the officials of Asia, who were his friends, sent to him pleading that he would not venture into the theater. 32 Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they found out that he was a Jew, all with one voice cried out for about two hours, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 35 And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus? 36 Therefore, since these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your f goddess. 38 Therefore, if Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a case against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39 But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger of being called in question for today's uproar, there being no reason which we may give to account for this disorderly gathering.” 41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.
Alexander must have been pretty nervous there for those two hours, amongst his ADVERSARIES!!
I already answered your questions on Revelation 20, as for Revelation 12, the dragon represents kings and of course the messengers would be the kings messengers. Compare to Judges 5!!

Judges 5:19 “The kings came and fought ; Then fought the kings of Canaan At Taanach near the waters of Megiddo ; They took no plunder in silver. 20 “The stars fought from heaven, From their courses they fought against Sisera. 21 “The torrent of Kishon swept them away, The ancient torrent, the torrent Kishon. O my soul, march on with strength. 22 “Then the horses' hoofs beat From the dashing, the dashing of his valiant steeds. 23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the LORD, 'Utterly curse its inhabitants ; Because they did not come to the help of the LORD, To the help of the LORD against the warriors.'

There exists no mention in the bible of evil messengers literally falling from the sky or from God’s righteous abode, where we are told earth is to become like WITH NO WAR and NO SIN to EVER OCCUR. We are told of men falling from heaven as representing falling from a high position in the OT. MEN of power and authority are being brought down in Revelation 12. In history we know there have been times in war when one side realizes that defeat is eminent, with the little time left instead of giving up they attempt to try and wreak as much havoc as they can until they are brought to their own death.

I use OT examples to understand the symbols given in Revelation 12, I don't follow Mainstream Traditional Doctrine of Fantasy and Foolishness that mimics pagan ignorance.

Around the time of the NT if there was ONE person worthy of receiving the Title Adversary or False Accuser it would be without a doubt NERO.

Christians didn't have time to fear NERO though apparently, according to mainstream Christian tradition, they were too busy fearing some invisible creature and all his supernatural powers worrying that they might be brainwashed by this creature to think evil and do evil.

Hi Jodi,

I see that you have attempted to answer questions number
1 and 2 to fit into your preconceived ideas of truth; excellent!

Question #3 seems to have stumped you.
Hymenaeus and Alexander is being delivered over to
Lucifer the devil called Satan, who is the evil entity you deny!

Could you please answer all seven of them?
I'm still waiting for your answers to questions #4, 5 and 6; thank you!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 12:13 am#217898

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:59)

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

Hi Jodi,

I have not forgotten about this question,
but it may have been meant as a distraction.

So I will answer it after you have sufficiently answered
the questions I have presented to you; OK?

I have listed the questions you have yet to answer.
Plus I have some more questions for you as well.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 5:25 am#217944

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,11:12)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 24 2010,04:00)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,01:36)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2010,01:20)

Ed J,

Satan means adversary, right?

Hi Jodi,

Yes; now will you answer my questions?

If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…

2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.

1) Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?

1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.

2) Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?

1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

3) Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

4) Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?

Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

5) Just exactly who is being bound here?

Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

6) Who is being loosed out of his prison?

These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?

Hi Ed J,

Since you didn't think my first response was satisfactory, here's more-

2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices .

You asked, “Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?”

1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?”

Who imprisoned Paul and kept him from traveling?…. surely not a spirit being, that is pure foolishness!!

It was a human authority of course!!

You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?”

That’s a good question, I really don’t know. What do you think?

This is interesting-

Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. 21 When these things were accomplished, Paul purposed in the Spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome.” 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, but he himself stayed in Asia for a time. 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, d brought no small profit to the craftsmen. 25 He called them together with the workers of similar occupation, and said: “Men, you know that we have our prosperity by this trade. 26 Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands. 27 So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, e whom all Asia and the world worship.” 28 Now when they heard this, they were full of wrath and cried out, saying, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 29 So the whole city was filled with confusion, a
nd rushed into the theater with one accord, having seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians, Paul's travel companions. 30 And when Paul wanted to go in to the people, the disciples would not allow him. 31 Then some of the officials of Asia, who were his friends, sent to him pleading that he would not venture into the theater. 32 Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they found out that he was a Jew, all with one voice cried out for about two hours, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 35 And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus? 36 Therefore, since these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your f goddess. 38 Therefore, if Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a case against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39 But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger of being called in question for today's uproar, there being no reason which we may give to account for this disorderly gathering.” 41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.
Alexander must have been pretty nervous there for those two hours, amongst his ADVERSARIES!!
I already answered your questions on Revelation 20, as for Revelation 12, the dragon represents kings and of course the messengers would be the kings messengers. Compare to Judges 5!!

I use OT examples to understand the symbols given in Revelation 12, I don't follow Mainstream Traditional Doctrine of Fantasy and Foolishness that mimics pagan ignorance.

Around the time of the NT if there was ONE person worthy of receiving the Title Adversary or False Accuser it would be without a doubt NERO.

Hi Jodi,

I see that you have attempted to answer questions number
1 and 2 to fit into your preconceived ideas of truth; excellent!

Question #3 seems to have stumped you.
Hymenaeus and Alexander is being delivered over to
Lucifer the devil called Satan, who is the evil entity you deny!

Could you please answer all seven of them?
I'm still waiting for your answers to questions #4, 5 and 6; thank you!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

I find your post in response to me EXTREMELY disappointing.

You think, “Hymenaeus and Alexander is being delivered over to Lucifer the devil called Satan, who is the evil entity you deny!” is a proper response? Shame on you.

The very fact that you use the word Lucifer makes me have no respect for anything you say. The LATIN word has NO business in the English bible and you are a true follower of Christian fairytales.

Isaiah 14:4 That thou hast taken up this simile Concerning the king of Babylon, and said, How hath the exactor ceased, 5 Ceased hath the golden one. Broken hath Jehovah the staff of the wicked, The sceptre of rulers. 6 He who is smiting peoples in wrath, A smiting without intermission, He who is ruling in anger nations, Pursuing without restraint! 7 At rest — quiet hath been all the earth, They have broken forth [into] singing. 8 Even firs have rejoiced over thee, Cedars of Lebanon — [saying]: Since thou hast lain down, The hewer cometh not up against us. 9 Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations. 10 All of them answer and say unto thee, Even thou hast become weak like us! Unto us thou hast become like! 11 Brought down to Sheol hath been thine excellency, The noise of thy psaltery, Under thee spread out hath been the worm, Yea, covering thee is the worm. 12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. 13 And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north. 14 I go up above the heights of a thick cloud, I am like to the Most High. 15 Only — unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit.

The king of Babylon is being compared to the son of dawn, the planet we call Venus. The scripture is not comparing the King to a fallen angel.

CAN YOU NOT GIVE PROPER RESPONSE USING SCRIPTURE TO DEFEND YOUR STATEMENT?

Explain to us what it meant for Paul to deliver H&A to the adversary?

Who was the devil that put Christians into prison?

What did you think of Judges 5, where it speaks of MEN, Kings, fighting in heaven? The dragon and his messengers represents MEN, not angels. There are several examples in the bible of men falling from heaven, or being cut down, or brought down.

DEFINE the HEAVEN of which the dragon falls from in Revelation.

Let's get one thing strait, nothing fits my preconceived ideas, because my preconceived ideas were the same ideas you believe. When I started to study the bible in depth my preconceived ideas didn't fit with what scripture truly taught so one by one I had to ditch them.

Ed J,

I answered 4,5 and 6 already. Here are brief answers from what I ALREADY SAID!!

4.The dragon and his messengers are Kings and the kings messengers, they are not literally being cast to earth, but as the OT teaches us QUITE WELL, the Kings are loosing their position of power and authority.

5.The CARNAL MIND is bound for a thousand years!!

6. The CARNAL MIND is let loose for a short time after the thousand years.

September 28, 2010 at 5:35 am#217946

Participant

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 6:14 am#217951

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

September 28, 2010 at 6:20 am#217952

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

Hi Jodi,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right, I may have more
in common with them than you do.

The World Wide Church of God, is that Herbert W Armstrong?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 28, 2010 at 6:21 am#217953

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,11:12)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,03:59)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,00:33)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19)

The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people…

…………………gene

HI Gene,

How quickly we forget what we say! Does 'your' logic NOT then mean…

Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!

Hi Jodi,

Since you and Gene seem to be in agreement,
and Gene will not take my questions seriously,
please answer these questions as well; OK?

Also there's some questions you have yet to answer here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

My understanding of the adversary in the book of Job is not defining the word as a proper name, but as a title to one of God's messengers.

I do not believe that the Hebrew word X!t EVER in scripture represents a proper name. Do you? If so, where in scripture does the word X!t represent a proper name and where does it not?

HI Jodi,

Your answers are not so clear here?
Could you correspond them to each question numbered 1-4 please?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

bump for Jodi

September 28, 2010 at 2:02 pm#217974

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,17:20)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

Hi Jodi,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right, I may have more
in common with them than you do.

The World Wide Church of God, is that Herbert W Armstrong?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No worries Ed J.

Yes, Hebert W. Armstrong was the leader of the WWC of God.

September 29, 2010 at 9:37 am#218073

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,19:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,17:20)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,16:35)

Hi Jodi,

What caused you to leave the JW's organization?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I have never been a JW, for you to ask me such a thing baffles me for I don't agree with them on many key issues. You actually probably have more in common with them then do I!!

I belonged to the same church as Gene, Georg and Irene actually, the World Wide Church of God, until I was 19 anyway.

Hi Jodi,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right, I may have more
in common with them than you do.

The World Wide Church of God, is that Herbert W Armstrong?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

No worries Ed J.

Yes, Hebert W. Armstrong was the leader of the WWC of God.

LOL OMGOSH!!!!

LOL YOU FOLLOW THAT GUY!!

I been wondering for the longest time what WWC was all about!!!

lol its from that armstrong guy all along,

My gosh i read his books, lol…
I remember how i felt when i was reading his books,

lol Totally was not lead by the Spirit.

My gosh…

September 29, 2010 at 9:39 am#218074

Participant

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm correction,
I found out about this guy through the PCOG

Who i just found out is more focused on Armstrong

September 29, 2010 at 9:40 am#218075

Participant

Quote

After Mr. Armstrong died, Jordanian Ambassador to the United States Mohammed Kamal wrote, “He was truly a great man of vision … I am confident that his colleagues will carry on with his mission and his great work.”

The new leadership of the Worldwide Church of God began systematically rejecting and destroying every teaching and tradition Mr. Armstrong established. Immediately, massive doctrinal changes swept the Church, initially concealed from the membership. More than 7 of every 10 members were driven out or excommunicated.

As a result, the Church's publications withered and the program went off the air altogether. The Church’s famed performing arts series was cancelled, along with all other humanitarian projects, which had grown to serve people from Japan to Egypt to India to the Philippines and beyond.

During the disloyalty and destruction, however, Gerald Flurry clung to the biblical truth taught by Mr. Armstrong, founding the Philadelphia Church of God in 1989. Since then, the PCG has raised the ruins and continued Mr. Armstrong's rich legacy.

Jody is this true? This is from the PCOG.org website

September 29, 2010 at 9:44 am#218076

Participant

From the PCOG website, The Philidelphia church of God, the ones who splitted from the WWC,

Quote

•We believe the Church is that body of believers who are being led by the Holy Spirit; that the true Church of God is not a denomination; that the inspired name for this spiritual organism is “THE CHURCH OF GOD” (Acts 20:28); that the mission of the Church today is to preach the gospel of the coming KINGDOM OF GOD to all nations as a witness (Matthew 24:14), with emphasis on the warning to America and Britain of the prophecies pertaining to them (Ezekiel 33:7); to reconcile to God, and to save, through Christ, such people as are now called (John 6:44); and to minister to the Church of God. Members of the Church are being specially trained in this life to rule with Christ in the Millennium (Revelation 20:6).

lol im sorry i found that funnny (whats in bold)

September 29, 2010 at 4:02 pm#218099