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Quote (charity @ Dec. 01 2006,09:01) Quote (sscott @ Nov. 21 2006,05:13) When was Jesus Begotten? Before coming to earth, at this Birth, at His Resurection? When was it..what does the scripture say?
The Baby Jesus can be safely the first begotten to come into the world1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
When he had grown into a man he said he has come from his father into the world again; once here and here again
Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
And after the cross he said touch me not for he had not yet ascended to the father
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
But waited to be settled again at the right side of the father;
Wherefore he once was seated at his side in a heaven where unrighteousness could enter; and the arch angle Michael warred in heaven with Satan.
He then after the cross having put the power over death, under his feet he sat in the new prepared place where no unrighteous may enter; by the father he sits a second time glorified and glorified again.charity
Hi charity,
No, wrong take..
He has not come before
and his birth was not his begettal.
The monogenes Son was sent into the world.
Monogenes does not relate to birth.Greetings Nick
Being one that is not willing to enter stife and arguing with someone that is not humble before God to search out iall truth
You may accuse; for that is a blessing towards the searchers!
I am sorry that just to announce Christ’s Name is not that you know whom God Has sent! as if a pass word at the Gate?
Christ had to ask his Apostles after three and half years of dwelling with them in person; “Now do you know who I am” this takes some considerable suffering to accomplish; and a letting Go of pride That maybe one may know it all within in his own knowledge.How ever you may be interested in the setting up of the one shepherd; For God prepared a sacrifice himself; purified him and made him holy;
David’s Soul New Christ Work
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
Christ comes to do the work
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.We Must take part in the resurrection of Life, our we shall take part in the second death; twice dead?
And what offence shall be held against these in resurrection of Life; while they seek David and not Christ; in the latter days.
Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Resurrection of life
Zec 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.These things are not even considered these days; yet even the only sign that the wicked shall be given; is the sign of the men of Nineveh and the queen of Sheba in resurrection of life to condemn this generation of there unbelief.
And even that has no provisions is made! for heresies have flooded the truth and it far from even finding.
charity
Hi charity,
You say
“You may accuse; for that is a blessing towards the searchers”
I thought you said you were grateful to learn where you are wrong?
No one is accusing you of anything.Well put it this way Nick defending what we believe as the utmost truth can lead us to a second death.
And I am most thankful to hear from you. Thank you for responding to even
Perseverance how can we come into unity?
No one is born with the whole truth!
All needing to suffer a little for someone else at times to prove the words of God!
And also we just might be thankful towards another one day who hang in there without wearying, having a better eye sight on the subject? Well tuned ears! For Truth. We have been set here because we are all heading for the same goalSo For Whatever its worth Nice to Meet you Nick
charity
Hi,
Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Many see the conception or the birth of Christ as the begettal spoken of here.
But God is speaking to another cogniscent being.
No foetus or infant is cogniscient.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2006,06:33) I agree with Oxy. Luke 1:35 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason (Gr. dio) the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1:35 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore (Gr. dio) also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Luke 1:35 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So (Gr. dio) the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.Luke 1:35 (ESV)
35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore (Gr. dio) the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.Luke 1:35 (AMP)
35Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so (Gr. dio) the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God.Therefore:
G1352
διό
dio
dee-o'
From G1223 and G3739; through which thing, that is, consequently: – for which cause, therefore, wherefore.Gabriel explains precisely WHY Yahshua is called the Son of God…..
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
If Jesus only became the Son of God at his conception in Mary then he was not truly the unique monogenes son of God at all but the Son of God and Mary.
He then could not only represent in nature his Father because he had a human mother too.
He was not the same in substance as God at all as God has no human aspect.
Thus the argument that some use that he was always one with God also does not hold water.
Neither was he God in flesh as God does not have a human mother or human genes.No the monogenes Son is the same yesterday today and foorever and was with God and was sent into the world partaking of our flesh top be as we are.
Why would we want to determine WHEN Jesus was begotten when we can't even settle between us what “begotten” means!
Begotten = conception? Of course Nick says no. Then what is the difference between the two? One God can do by himself while the other requires a women?
This thread seems to be so closely related to “conception” and “preexistence” that I'm confused what we would discuss here that would be any different from those threads? I don't know…..
Hi not3,
If begettal is conception what of Mt 1
?
2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Ha………..Nick, we are to assume that these men who did the “begetting” had a wife! All these men spoken of in Matthew had a wife!
Although it should be noted that Joseph didn't get credit for “begetting” Jesus because that credit belongs to God (his biological Father).
Another favorite topic of mine (so closely related to “Conception” and “Preexistence”) and I wondered if might draw in some new thoughts on the topic?
I believe the “who” and “what” is Jesus – is among the most important subjects that we could discuss. Knowing “what' Jesus is (an incarnation; an angel; the literal Son of God; the preexistent spirit son of God incarnate and so on) is to answer the grand-daddy question of all: Who do you say that I am?
So if Jesus was begotten before creation – was it a true begettal? Can God “beget” alone? And if he can and he sent this preexistent Son to be fused with Mary during conception, what would be the outcome?
Was Jesus an angel who was begotten before time?
For the Trinitarians – do you believe in a preexistent begettal? I don't know…..
Here is Y'shua born of a woman who a virgin, Fathered by God Himself (YHWH our Elohim). He is one of us. He is one of our brethren. Human in the flesh, as we are human and as Adam was human. How? Elohim knows! He was made flesh so that we could relate to him 100% and see that it IS possible for man to live without sin. Knowing this we should live as He did not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit, in all obedience to our heavenly Father. It is far beyond human knowledge to understand the hows? I do however understand the why? And I am content with that.
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 21 2006,16:53) Quote (sscott @ Nov. 21 2006,05:13) When was Jesus Begotten? Before coming to earth, at this Birth, at His Resurection? When was it..what does the scripture say?
Hi sscottAccording to http://www.dictionary.com to beget means to father or sire. In the beginning was the Word as you well know. Scripture tells us that the Word was made flesh. It doesn't say the Son was made flesh.
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was this way (for His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph) before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
Thus the Word of God became the Son of God.
I think it's interesting that God foreknew people. In other words, we were known of God before birth, yet before birth we were no man's son.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
This is true.Quote (Laurel @ July 02 2007,19:10) Here is Y'shua born of a woman who a virgin, Fathered by God Himself (YHWH our Elohim). He is one of us. He is one of our brethren. Human in the flesh, as we are human and as Adam was human. How? Elohim knows! He was made flesh so that we could relate to him 100% and see that it IS possible for man to live without sin. Knowing this we should live as He did not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit, in all obedience to our heavenly Father. It is far beyond human knowledge to understand the hows? I do however understand the why? And I am content with that.
Hi L,
It is not important that we claim Jesus as a human brother.
It is important that he claims us as brothers.
To be his brother we too must become sons of God.
We must be reborn.Not well versed in Greek, but I find it interesting that “only begotten” is used for monogenes in the case of both Yeshua and Isaac. In other instances, the word “only” (Lk 7:12, 8:42) and “only child” (Lk 9:38).
Now, we know Isaac was NOT Abraham's only child, but he was the only child of both Abraham and Sarah. And he, like Yeshua, was a child of promise. There are many parallels between Isaac and Yeshua.
I think that throwing the word “begotten” in mixes people up. I think the key is that the one spoken of is unique, as is the case of Isaac. In other cases, the use of monogenes indicated that there was only one child, but I believe that the translators decided to add “begotten” to show a form of uniqueness. I don't know that is was a valid thing to do.
Quote (kejonn @ July 16 2007,20:05) Not well versed in Greek, but I find it interesting that “only begotten” is used for monogenes in the case of both Yeshua and Isaac. In other instances, the word “only” (Lk 7:12, 8:42) and “only child” (Lk 9:38). Now, we know Isaac was NOT Abraham's only child, but he was the only child of both Abraham and Sarah. And he, like Yeshua, was a child of promise. There are many parallels between Isaac and Yeshua.
I think that throwing the word “begotten” in mixes people up. I think the key is that the one spoken of is unique, as is the case of Isaac. In other cases, the use of monogenes indicated that there was only one child, but I believe that the translators decided to add “begotten” to show a form of uniqueness. I don't know that is was a valid thing to do.
Interesting. Thanks KJ!I was just chatting with someone about the similarities of Isaac and Jesus.
OK – random firing here – should I be calling “Jesus” YESHUA?
Isaac was not Abraham's only child, but he was the one Abraham loved.
Gen 22:2
“Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region……”I think there is a tremendous message in the parallels of Isaac and Jesus (Yeshua). Namely, that Isaac is a biological son of Abraham and so was Yeshua a biological Son of God Almighty.
God provided the lamb for sacrifice – his only son whom he loved. Now Abraham, after passing the test, had his son restored to him from the dead (figuratively speaking). What we were not able to do, God did for us. Praise Him!
Kejonn; I wouldn't be so concerned about not being well-versed in Greek. If that was the key to knowing the message of Christ, the Jews according to the flesh at the time of Christ would have all accepted Christ. The same rule applies to understanding the Godhead. Greek is not the answer. Look at all the scriptures where Jesus speaks of himself, what his mission is, what he is capable of in himself, and so forth. It's obvious, he is not God. He is the Son of God. The title itself is indicative of one that has a beginning with his heritage in God. In Mathew 4 Satan says to Christ twice if you be the Son of God. Satan does not say if you be God. Knowing that Christ had been fasting Satan said to command that these stones be made bread. Christ response was man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, thereby acknowledging that he was not God. Finally, Satan offers him the kingdoms of the world in exchange for worshipping him. Christ responds “It is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God only” What Christ was showing us was that he was subject to the Father in all things and he was not God. He didn't say I can't worship you because I'm part of the eternal trinity and God doesn't worship Satan. Satan certainly would not be tempting God to worship him. There's no need to become a Greek guru to understand the truth of Christ.
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