When Begotten?

Participant

I agree with Oxy and Is 1:18.

The baptism of Jesus at the Jordan was a confirmation of who he was and not a change of his nature or taking on of divinity. He already was divinty in the flesh.

Matt 3:11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
[14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
[15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

November 26, 2006 at 7:56 am#33158

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 21 2006,05:53)

I think it's interesting that God foreknew people. In other words, we were known of God before birth, yet before birth we were no man's son.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.

BTW, The same goes for Jesus Christ!

Before birth he was no one's son.
However he was foreknown!

(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
('Foreordained', Same Greek word as 'foreknew' in Rom 8.29!)

Oxy, Can you therefore see why I don't believe that Christ literally pre-existed his birth?
Notionally yes! Ideally yes! But not literally!
He did not literally pre-exist anymore than any of the saints, who are his brethren

He was known of God before the foundation of the world.
And just like every one else he did not come into existence until he was conceived.

BTW in Matt 1.18
The Greek word for 'birth' here is genesis
And we know what 'genesis' means!

So Matthew was saying …
Now the genesis of Jesus Christ was this way

November 26, 2006 at 8:17 am#33161

Participant

Quote

BTW, The same goes for Jesus Christ!

Before birth he was no one's son.
However he was foreknown!

(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
('Foreordained', Same Greek word as 'foreknew' in Rom 8.29!)

He was known of God before the foundation of the world.
And just like every one else he did not come into existence until he was conceived.

BTW in Matt 1.18
The Greek word for 'birth' here is genesis
And we know what 'genesis' means!

So Matthew was saying …
Now the genesis of Jesus Christ was this way

Adam Pastor this is true, but he was The Word, the Eternal life that John spoke of before the Word became flesh and was born as a man the incarnate Christ.

I Jn 1:1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that **eternal life**, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] **In him was life**; and the life was the light of men.

November 26, 2006 at 9:23 am#33169

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 26 2006,07:17)

I agree with Oxy and Is 1:18.

The baptism of Jesus at the Jordan was a confirmation of who he was and not a change of his nature or taking on of divinity. He already was divinty in the flesh.

Hi W,
Do you say God came in the flesh?

1Jn 4
” 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. “
The Son of God, Jesus Christ, came in the flesh.

November 26, 2006 at 12:39 pm#33172

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 26 2006,08:17)

Quote

BTW, The same goes for Jesus Christ!

Before birth he was no one's son.
However he was foreknown!

(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
('Foreordained', Same Greek word as 'foreknew' in Rom 8.29!)

He was known of God before the foundation of the world.
And just like every one else he did not come into existence until he was conceived.

BTW in Matt 1.18
The Greek word for 'birth' here is genesis
And we know what 'genesis' means!

So Matthew was saying …
Now the genesis of Jesus Christ was this way

Adam Pastor this is true, but he was The Word, the Eternal life that John spoke of before the Word became flesh and was born as a man the incarnate Christ.

I Jn 1:1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that **eternal life**, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

That, which, it; does not describe a personal living being!!!

Sadly, so many people ignore the fact that 1 John 1:1-3 corresponds to what John meant in John 1:1-4

If John meant by the term logos/word, some personal being, e.g. Jesus … would he not have said something like …

Quote

He who was from the beginning, who we have heard, who we have seen with our eyes, who we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen him, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, who was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

That is, the pronouns used would be personal describing some personal, living being who was with the One GOD, the Father, in the beginning!

But John does no such thing! And he should be allowed to say & interpret what he means.

1 John 1.1-3 clarifies & corresponds with John 1.1-4.
In both passages John is speaking about a word, a logos
(logos = account, communication, doctrine, intent, matter, reason, speech, talk, utterance, etc)

Logos in Scripture is not used to describe some being who was with GOD in the beginning. No! John is using Logos to describe GOD's word of eternal life; through this word all things came into being; and in the fulness of time, this word was made flesh resulting in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus the Messiah, therefore, is what the logos became

And as I already pointed out, even Tyndale plus others, understood what John meant, and translated John 1:1-4 with 'it' and not 'him'
Sadly the KJV translators followed the trend of the Roman Catholic Rheims translation and the rest is history.

However, it does not change the fact, that what was with GOD in the beginning was GOD's word/commandment of eternal life; which became manifested in the person of Jesus Christ, thereby, the disciples could see, hear, and handle!

Jesus is what the logos became.

Quote (Colin Brown @ Trinity and Incarnation: In search of Contemporary Orthodoxy,Ex Auditu (7), 1991)

'It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said:
“In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.” '

Quote (Karl-Josef Kuschel @ Born Before All Time? The Dispute over Christ's Origin)

p. 382,'The logos of the prologue becomes Jesus; Jesus was the logos become flesh, not the logos as such.’
p. 383, Jesus is not presented in literal seriousness as a pre-existent divine being who came in human form to earth to reveal unprecedented secrets.

November 26, 2006 at 12:48 pm#33173

Participant

PS
'word' here is no more a person than 'wisdom & prudence' are in the Book of Proverbs.

Don't confuse personification with an actual person.

November 26, 2006 at 1:58 pm#33174

kenrch

Participant

It seems that the word was the first creature created by the Father, His Word.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “beginning of the creation of God”:

Jesus was not begotten before the use of Mary. That is the whole point of the new creation the New Birth God's born sons and daughters and not created beings.

But what I don't understand is why would Jesus want to be just the Father's word once again.

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Unless Jesus was speaking of going back to heaven to get away from this defiled system of things?

Then we have John the baptist who was Elijah “but didn't know it”!!!

Mat 11:10 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not arisen a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.

Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.

John didn't know he was Elijah. John came in the spirit of Elijah.
Did John pre-existed as Eljiah before he was John the baptist?

November 26, 2006 at 10:10 pm#33182

Participant

Hi AP,
Jesus was loved before he was conceived. He was beloved of God, not in prophecy but in fact.

November 27, 2006 at 12:51 am#33191

Participant

And the saints were chosen before the foundation of the world
[Eph 1.4], so your point is?

If the saints did not literally pre-exist, then neither did the Messiah.
GOD loved the Messiah before the foundation of the world, even as He had chosen the saints in Him before the foundation of the world!
It is that simple!

November 27, 2006 at 12:53 am#33194

Participant

Hi AP,
“Pre exist” is a nonsense word based on life just being physical creation.

Before Abraham came to Christ IS.

November 27, 2006 at 1:28 am#33197

Participant

Quote

That, which, it; does not describe a personal living being!!!

Sadly, so many people ignore the fact that 1 John 1:1-3 corresponds to what John meant in John 1:1-4

If John meant by the term logos/word, some personal being, e.g. Jesus … would he not have said something like …

Quote
He who was from the beginning, who we have heard, who we have seen with our eyes, who we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen him, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, who was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

That is, the pronouns used would be personal describing some personal, living being who was with the One GOD, the Father, in the beginning!

But John does no such thing! And he should be allowed to say & interpret what he means.

1 John 1.1-3 clarifies & corresponds with John 1.1-4.
In both passages John is speaking about a word, a logos
(logos = account, communication, doctrine, intent, matter, reason, speech, talk, utterance, etc)

Logos in Scripture is not used to describe some being who was with GOD in the beginning. No! John is using Logos to describe GOD's word of eternal life; through this word all things came into being; and in the fulness of time, this word was made flesh resulting in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus the Messiah, therefore, is what the logos became

And as I already pointed out, even Tyndale plus others, understood what John meant, and translated John 1:1-4 with 'it' and not 'him'
Sadly the KJV translators followed the trend of the Roman Catholic Rheims translation and the rest is history.

However, it does not change the fact, that what was with GOD in the beginning was GOD's word/commandment of eternal life; which became manifested in the person of Jesus Christ, thereby, the disciples could see, hear, and handle!

Jesus is what the logos became.

You are right, we sure don’t agree. We are on 2 different planets.

So if I understand you correctly this Word you speak of was only eternal life with no personality…
Just a (logos = account, communication, doctrine, intent, matter, reason, speech, talk, utterance, etc)

So the pre existence of Christ was only as a (logos = account, communication, doctrine, intent, matter, reason, speech, talk, utterance, etc) ?

Sorry AP nice try, But,

You say….

Quote

That, which, it; does not describe a personal living being!!!

Good point. I don’t know why the translators used “That which” when the Greek word is hos which means, who, which, what, that. So the translators should have used “Who”.

But, they did do well in that they used that same word “hos” in the following scriptures…

Matt 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom (hos) was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matt 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose (hos) shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Jn 3:34
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose (hos) shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jn 4:22
22] Ye worship ye know not what (hos): we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Interesting Jesus used the same word in describing the Father and our worship to him!

You say…

Quote

But John does no such thing! And he should be allowed to say & interpret what he means.

Interesting you should say this and quote Tyndal. This is how Tyndale interprets it.

Tyndal Jn 1:1
That which was fro the begynninge concerninge which we have hearde which we have sene with oure eyes which we have loked vpon and oure hondes have hadled of the worde of life.
2 For the lyfe appered and we have sene and beare witnes and shewe vnto you that eternall lyfe which was with the father and appered vnto vs.
3 That which we have sene and herde declare we vnto you that ye maye have felloushippe with vs and that oure fellishippe maye be with the father and his sonne Iesus Christ.

Why didn’t he use “it” like you say he did in Jn 1:1-4

Then his translation should read…
“It” was fro the begynninge concerninge which we have hearde which we have sene with oure eyes which we have loked vpon and oure hondes have hadled of “IT” the worde of life.
2 For the lyfe appered and we have sene and beare witnes and shewe vnto you that eternall lyfe which was with the father and appered vnto vs.
3 “It” which we have sene and herde declare we vnto you that ye maye have felloushippe with vs and that oure fellishippe maye be with the father and his sonne Iesus Christ.

So if we were to use your linguistic rules for 1 Jn 1:1.

Then we should also say that in 1 Jn 1:3 when John used the pronoun “That which ”

Should be interpreted “ “It” which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Meaning that the Father and the Son neither one are a personal being.

You said it yourself…

Quote

If John meant by the term logos/word, some personal being, e.g. Jesus … would he not have said something like …

Why do men constantly try to rewrite the book?

Men of God have spent lifetimes bringing us the purist word that we can have on page.

Someone is always trying to come up with a new doctrine or word.

Blessings!

November 27, 2006 at 1:31 am#33198

Participant

Quote

Hi AP,
Jesus was loved before he was conceived. He was beloved of God, not in prophecy but in fact.

NH Amen!

November 27, 2006 at 1:32 am#33199

Participant

Quote

Before Abraham came to Christ IS.

Abig amen also!

November 27, 2006 at 1:39 am#33200