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Quote Of course if you want to join the club that says nothing was the first cause, then go right ahead. You will have to of course turn a blind eye from the fact that nothing is nothing and cannot do anything and that nothing is the lack of something and not a thing in it self because even self is something.
You are the only person pushing belief in this strawman.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 25 2009,22:38) We live by trust. We trust the weatherman because he bases his predictions on the work of scientists who have some demonstrated skill in predicting the weather, and have a social contract with the public regarding the state of their science and the quality of the information they provide. We trust the doctor because we know they are intelligent people who have committed themselves to the Hippocratic Oath and the social contract of providing the best care they can. We ONLY live on faith in regards to those things we insist on taking on NO evidence, such as alien abductions, astrology, tarot cards and christianity. Stuart
If doctors were actually committed to the Hippocratic Oath there would be no abortions!! I would have trouble trusting a blatant lier! TKTrying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time. Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find. Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news. If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 27 2009,21:43) Quote (Stu @ May 25 2009,22:38) We live by trust. We trust the weatherman because he bases his predictions on the work of scientists who have some demonstrated skill in predicting the weather, and have a social contract with the public regarding the state of their science and the quality of the information they provide. We trust the doctor because we know they are intelligent people who have committed themselves to the Hippocratic Oath and the social contract of providing the best care they can. We ONLY live on faith in regards to those things we insist on taking on NO evidence, such as alien abductions, astrology, tarot cards and christianity. Stuart
If doctors were actually committed to the Hippocratic Oath there would be no abortions!! I would have trouble trusting a blatant lier! TK
Come on that is a nonsense. Do the right to life and health of the pregnant woman come second in your interpretation of the physician's code?Stuart
TK
Quote Trying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time.
That is not what scripture says. Christians have an evangelical imperative.Quote Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find.
Yes, but the question is WHAT will you find., and it would seem many find delusion.Quote Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news.
But there is no point in trying to change another’s beliefs, right?Quote If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Blah blah prostyletise unthinkingly blah. What single piece of good has this unquestionably done for any person that could not possibly have been achieved by a different, perhaps kinder means?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 27 2009,23:53) TK Quote Trying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time.
That is not what scripture says. Christians have an evangelical imperative.Quote Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find.
Yes, but the question is WHAT will you find., and it would seem many find delusion.Quote Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news.
But there is no point in trying to change another’s beliefs, right?Quote If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Blah blah prostyletise unthinkingly blah. What single piece of good has this unquestionably done for any person that could not possibly have been achieved by a different, perhaps kinder means?Stuart
Stuart: I certainly meant no unkindness. I appologize! TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ May 29 2009,00:55) Quote (Stu @ May 27 2009,23:53) TK Quote Trying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time.
That is not what scripture says. Christians have an evangelical imperative.Quote Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find.
Yes, but the question is WHAT will you find., and it would seem many find delusion.Quote Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news.
But there is no point in trying to change another’s beliefs, right?Quote If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Blah blah prostyletise unthinkingly blah. What single piece of good has this unquestionably done for any person that could not possibly have been achieved by a different, perhaps kinder means?Stuart
Stuart: I certainly meant no unkindness. I appologize! TK
It may not seem like it but I love the christian and hate the christianty. I am sure I live under all sorts of illusions, actually there is no question that our brains make up stuff for us all the time, but I am relieved not to believe the nasty belief system endemic here, which puts nasty words in the mouth of what might have been a decent and compassionate man, if he indeed did exist.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 29 2009,01:23) Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 29 2009,00:55) Quote (Stu @ May 27 2009,23:53) TK Quote Trying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time.
That is not what scripture says. Christians have an evangelical imperative.Quote Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find.
Yes, but the question is WHAT will you find., and it would seem many find delusion.Quote Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news.
But there is no point in trying to change another’s beliefs, right?Quote If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Blah blah prostyletise unthinkingly blah. What single piece of good has this unquestionably done for any person that could not possibly have been achieved by a different, perhaps kinder means?Stuart
Stuart: I certainly meant no unkindness. I appologize! TK
It may not seem like it but I love the christian and hate the christianty. I am sure I live under all sorts of illusions, actually there is no question that our brains make up stuff for us all the time, but I am relieved not to believe the nasty belief system endemic here, which puts nasty words in the mouth of what might have been a decent and compassionate man, if he indeed did exist.Stuart
Stu: I come on this web site to learn and share the Gospel of the Kingdom of God with like brothers and sisters. I mean no harm to anyone. I am trying to find Truth just like everyone else on this site is trying to do. I need your light! I need Gene's light! I need to see, test and investigate every thing posted about God, Jesus the Truth.If I am deluded in any area would it not be more brotherly to show and explain a different way of thinking or maybe something I have missed? In your seeming anger to attempt to dispell what I quoted before that you missed, the fact that Jesus was telling his disciples the same thing. ..”if they don't recieve the Gospel or if they disagree with your Truth, DON'T ARGUE AND TRY TO CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS. Kick the dust off your shoes and move on. Don't cast your pearls of wisdom to swine, lest they turn and tear you up and call you deluded! Blessings to you my brother. TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ May 30 2009,00:49) Quote (Stu @ May 29 2009,01:23) Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 29 2009,00:55) Quote (Stu @ May 27 2009,23:53) TK Quote Trying to change another persons beliefs is mostly a waste of time.
That is not what scripture says. Christians have an evangelical imperative.Quote Life is a composite of choices what to wear, what to eat, where to go etc. Everyone has the choice to believe and experience God or to reject the whole idea. If you seek, you will find.
Yes, but the question is WHAT will you find., and it would seem many find delusion.Quote Jesus said go into the villiages and tell the people the good news.
But there is no point in trying to change another’s beliefs, right?Quote If they won't recieve you (or they reject you) kick the dust off your feet and leave them alone. The reason you must find God by faith is that when you find him, he is in you. Always has been. Awaken to the Truth. Jesus came to show us the Kingdom within. Gods word will turn on the light so we can see (understand) that we are one with God. TK
Blah blah prostyletise unthinkingly blah. What single piece of good has this unquestionably done for any person that could not possibly have been achieved by a different, perhaps kinder means?Stuart
Stuart: I certainly meant no unkindness. I appologize! TK
It may not seem like it but I love the christian and hate the christianty. I am sure I live under all sorts of illusions, actually there is no question that our brains make up stuff for us all the time, but I am relieved not to believe the nasty belief system endemic here, which puts nasty words in the mouth of what might have been a decent and compassionate man, if he indeed did exist.Stuart
Stu: I come on this web site to learn and share the Gospel of the Kingdom of God with like brothers and sisters. I mean no harm to anyone. I am trying to find Truth just like everyone else on this site is trying to do. I need your light! I need Gene's light! I need to see, test and investigate every thing posted about God, Jesus the Truth.If I am deluded in any area would it not be more brotherly to show and explain a different way of thinking or maybe something I have missed? In your seeming anger to attempt to dispell what I quoted before that you missed, the fact that Jesus was telling his disciples the same thing. ..”if they don't recieve the Gospel or if they disagree with your Truth, DON'T ARGUE AND TRY TO CHANGE THEIR BELIEFS. Kick the dust off your shoes and move on. Don't cast your pearls of wisdom to swine, lest they turn and tear you up and call you deluded! Blessings to you my brother. TK
OK then. What is the truth about whether Jesus really existed? What objective criterion can be used to decide whether the contents of scripture are literally true, allegorical descriptions of real things, or fiction? If Jesus did exist, how can we verify any of the things that christians claim he said or did? For a man who never met Jesus, Saul of Tarsus said a lot of things about him. By what authority does he get included in the canon? He was one of those keenest to get christians to dust off their footwear. Have you ever considered that the insane leaders of some of the most damaging cults in the world have done exactly the same? For 2/3 of the world it is of little personal consequence whether Jesus was a fictional character or not. Why is it necessary that Jesus lived in order that you live a good life and be acceptable to whatever deity you vote for? Is it not IN PRINCIPLE dangerous to refuse to concede the possibility that history was other than scripture says it was? Do we not open ourselves up to giving credbility to any crackpot beliefs if we insist on respect for our own crackpot beliefs?It is not a 'fact' that Jesus told anyone anything.
This is my light for you. Question everything and be prepared to cast off lunatic beliefs if that is what they turn out to be. I have rejected christianity as a pitiable syndrome to be caught in. That is only my opinion but the population of the Western world is travelling quickly in the same direction and I think they are right.
Stuart
Stuart: As much as I would like to tell you certain things that would confirm or prove the existence of Jesus the Christ there is no way to prove his life or any other character in History. History is changing constantly. You can believe George Washington crossed the Delaware but you cannot prove it. History is heresay for the most part.As I wrote before believing is a choice. In this world information comes from every direction and we analyze it, decide if we want to believe it and if we do it becomes a part of us.Those beliefs also color and taint further information we accept. I sense that you (like me) disdain hypocrital organized religion. Religion is mans ideas or beliefs about God. Religion is not necessarily Truth. Every individual has a right to life on this planet to live and learn what they deem as Truth. I wish you wouldn't use terms like lunatic beliefs because it may be you are just exposing a lack of wisdom on your own part. I will respect your beliefs even if I don't agree. Please grant me the same. If I tell you information I know about Quantum Theory will you call it lunatic or will you choose to believe it as new cutting edge Science? Its all a choice.I would like to give you a brief sumary of the Truth I have found but there is little room here to do so. I have many writings that you might find interesting I would be glad to send to you or anyone that requests one. My email address is [email protected]. In the beginning, What is Sin, The End of the World, The End of Time, and more. Free! I've invested about 28 years of study mostly outside of any organized church. By staying apart from the so called churches as I strudied I have seen many doctrines by men that do not align with the Truth of Jesus.Believe me they are good news! Blessings to you, TK
TK your relativism is unusual for a christian. Yet you persist with 'The truth of Jesus' and write as if his existence is a foregone conclusion. Is it not important if he existed or not? I think the description of 'lunatic belief' is justified for people who think someone could literally walk again after being judicially executed.
Stuart
Stuart: I personally would not make a judgement on any subject without knowing all about the subject, how could I? Every hypothesis can seem crazy to one who does not have the facts. If the world was actually populated with true christians you would find, no sin, peace, joy, love, kindness, meekness, happiness et.al.! If God were in control of this world it would be the same.To see this world in the condition it is in and say God is in control sure doesn't say much good about God! God made this world and gave it to mankind.We have made it what it is today. Whether Jesus lived, died or walked on water or not, if all the people produced the fruit of the Spirit of God in this world, would it not be great? Is this not the Truth? If all believed they should produce Love only, to the best of their ability, should we reject that truth or would it be better to accept that truth. I can love you no matter what you have done in your life, and no matter what you will ever do. Thats my Truth, I got it from Jesus!! Blessings upon you eternally, TK
TK we have all the facts we need to assess whether people walk again after death, and not withstanding the provisional nature of scientific knowledge, it just doesn't happen. Whatsmore there is not even an eyewitness account or piece of physical evidence of the one incidence you insist on. We have enough knowledge to call it crazy talk especially when we also see how easily people are converted by those with a charismatic and convincing manner to believe things that are ridiculous. You are opening a seriously sized can of worms even to use the words “True Christian” let alone describe that utopia / dystopia you fancy would exist. I think you ignore the evolutionary history of our species and the traits we have as a result. Regardless of the rose-colouring or otherwise of your glasses, I think a world in awe of your Imaginary Friend would be very unpleasant. “He” has killed possibly up to 32,000,000 of our fellow humans and you want us all to worship that. Why do you not call for justice rather than toadying acceptance of all that brutality?
As you may have surmised I am optimistic because although it is as well to be informed about how humans are, there is no a single reason for anyone to believe what you do, except for what we already understand about how the brain organises itself and the likelihood that belief in imagined supernatural things is entirely explained in terms of the workings of that astonishing organ. The most reasonable thing to say is that gods do not exist outside the cranium of the believer.
Stuart
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