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you’re the one sliding all over the place – maybe it’s your way of trying to win arguments (make what I say sound confusing), but that’s your choice..
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I thought you would understand the doctrine of the Trinity..One God – three persons..!!??Yes – Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God..
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so tell me again – How did Peter, this uneducated fisherman reach such a profound conclusion about Christ..?
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Oh, that’s right, he studied the formation of historical doctrine for years, and the endless philosophical thoughts of all those wise rabbis..debating night and day with the learned Pharisees…until one day he finally hit on the right idea…!?
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Cause, basically – by your actions this is how you’re telling us we will discover truth..when really it is this very procedure you pursue, that has brought such confusion and division to Christianity down through the ages…
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In professing your doctrinal beliefs you are sadly only perpetuating the same old historical problems of the past..creating a greater Babylon than the one you think you’ve escaped from..If you think I am sliding all over the place, then you lack understanding on what I am saying and teaching. It is clear that I have stuck with and have not budged or slid all over the place with concerning who God is.
“For us, there is one God the Father.” I haven’t changed this since I first spoke to you and I have been defending it ever since.
And there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom God made Lord and Christ.Yes I understand what the doctrine is saying. The problem is I also understand what scripture says about who the true God is exclusively.
The Father is the one true God according to Jesus Christ.
And according to Athanasius and those who crafted the Trinity Doctrine, God is three persons as one substance. Yet remains a HE and not THEM. This is an oxymoron and I reject it not even because it is an oxymoron, but because I accept scripture instead.
Athanasius is just one of many who we were warned about. Paul said that not long after his life in this world, that men would creep in unaware and lead men away from the simplicity in Christ and toward themselves and their doctrines. History attests to this but not all can see this as they accept these traditions blindly.
Today, we have people preaching a meta-physical doctrine of the Trinity instead. Heaven doesn’t recognise it.No David.
What Peter was shown was directly from the Father. No problem there. The problem arises when you say or anyone says that the Father has revealed to them something that contradicts scripture and Jesus own words.
Peter’s revelation did not contradict scripture. But the Trinity Doctrine contradicts it completely.DavidL said:
Quote: “I have no interest in Biblical scholarship – only in the discernment of truth to which such Theological study is nothing more than a boring distraction and a complete and utter waste of time…”
“so tell me again – How did Peter, this uneducated fisherman reach such a profound conclusion about Christ..?
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Oh, that’s right, he studied the formation of historical doctrine for years, and the endless philosophical thoughts of all those wise rabbis..debating night and day with the learned Pharisees…until one day he finally hit on the right idea…!?
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Cause, basically – by your actions this is how you’re telling us we will discover truth..when really it is this very procedure you pursue, that has brought such confusion and division to Christianity down through the ages…” Unquote.I completely agree! Could not have said it better.
I think you are right wondering.
The Trinity is in the realm of theological debate. Whereas Jesus being the son of God and the messiah is in scripture and we can take that, understand it, and accept that without theological debate. It is so simple that even children can know Jesus is Lord and the messiah.
A famous scientist by the name of Isaac Newton wondered why a metaphysical concept imported from Greek philosophy, a practice of which he was extremely suspicious, was taught as truth when there was shaky inference in scripture. He insisted “the true faith was in the text.”
And what does the text say? That Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and the one who, God made Lord. There should be no argument about it IMO. We either accept it or reject it. 🙂T8 said, quote….”Cheers. I consider what everyone says too. It is how I have learned most of what I know now. But as you say, the greatest teacher is the Spirit. But I believe that God teaches us through others. So we need to hear what others say, but let the Spirit have the final say” unquote.
T8,
Truth is ‘not only’ knowledge of who God is… It also encompasses Love, tolerance, patience, forgiveness, humility, compassion, action… obedience, discernment.
Among other things, as I’m sure you know.With discernment – If we have the spirit of God in us, don’t you think that the spirit would respond deeply to a truth spoken.
Do you, or have you listened to a trinitarian sermon anywhere, and felt the spirit?
Or do you only read?Becky,
Okay.
Why did I single out the JWs?
They are the only (large) Christian denomination that I have heard of who believe/teach as they do regarding the Holy Spirit.. specifically the belief that God today does not give the gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor healing, nor dreams nor visions, etc, and that Satan is behind it.
They are the only group of Arians that I have heard of.
The writings here are Arian also.I’m a disciple – not a Pharisee or Theologian..
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You say you believe the Scriptures yet you quote a lot of stuff from outside Scripture to try and prove what you believe about the Scriptures is true…(?)
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You say Athanasius and others crafted the Trinity Doctrine…yet, as I will point out, the working of the Godhead is plainly evident to all who will simply look to the Scriptures themselves as the sole source for discovering truth…
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The one verse you do quote seems to summarize your whole concept of God and becomes proof for you that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not part of the Godhead…
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Yet there are many passages of Scripture that show the three separate Persons of the Godhead working together..I will share a couple with you that I haven’t looked for..but were just there when I opened my Bible recently..
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1 Corinthians 12:4-6
v4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same *SPIRIT*.
v5. There are different kinds of service, but the same *LORD*.
v6. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same *GOD* at work.
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Here in these verses we see a clear picture of the Godhead – the same God at work.. which includes not just Father God, but the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus…
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John 15:26
“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.”
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Here again is another very clear picture of the Godhead at work, given to us by our Lord Jesus Himself..You say the Bible has been corrupted by Trinitarian translators…but in my opinion you’ve completely missed the mark, and are really being distracted from the real corruption that is taking place within the church today..(that has nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine)..
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The reason heaven doesn’t recognize what the church is preaching is because the message of the cross is missing… and now we have a carnal gospel, a cross-less Christ, and a commercialized Christianity that is powerless to transform sinners, because it incorporates the flesh life instead of crucifying it..
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In this last hour of earth’s existence we must rediscover the true Gospel of Christ, we must come back again to the message Paul determined to preach – nothing but Christ, and Him crucified..The revelation a believer receives today through reading his Bible is no less true than that of Peter’s…
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You say the Trinity contradicts Scripture – but how can it when it proceeds from Scripture..!!??
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The problem is you either deny what the Scripture means, or try and change the wording of verses that are clear evidence for the Godhead (yet you still fail to give any alternative account of Jesus’ preexistence…if He was not God)..(!?)So I guess it would be fair to say that we accept Jesus is Lord and Messiah – but reject the other extra-biblical evidence you produce, as deceptive and misleading…
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The contention is whether belief in the Godhead is Scriptural or not… which is really quite obvious to any unbiased reader of the Word..
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again – I believe we can trust what the Scriptures teach over and above the uninspired thoughts of famous scientists and other philosophical men..You said:
The one verse you do quote seems to summarize your whole concept of God and becomes proof for you that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not part of the Godhead…
David, I could quote 100 scriptures and have done on this page:
But I quote this particular one over and over because it sticks out and forces you to look at it and you have not sufficiently explained it away. Even better, it is the simple and clear words of our Lord Jesus Christ. So it is up to us to believe him or not. There is no way to discredit it.
If Jesus says one thing and Athanasius another, then I know who I will listen to.
John 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”
Think of it as a wake up call to all who trust in the creeds and traditions of men. The time is coming and has come when we all will be called to come out of the great confusion and back to simplicity in Christ.You said:
You say the Bible has been corrupted by Trinitarian translators…but in my opinion you’ve completely missed the mark, and are really being distracted from the real corruption that is taking place within the church today..(that has nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine)..
I have said it before and I guess I have to repeat myself. The Bible is not corrupted, but some verses in some translations are corrupt or are mistakes. If you disagree, then you have to accept the NWT for example and you would also have to accept 1John 5:7, when it is common knowledge that this is not meant to be in the Bible and hence why many modern versions omit it. It is a well known an undisputed Trinitarian corruption. There are others too.
You said:
There are three.
God.. The Eternal Spirit..and Christ. (Hebrews 9:14).Do you realise what you just agreed to DavidL?
Is that not what we believe and Trinitarians deny?
We say there is God which is obviously the Father and notice that the Father is omitted in the quote and is instead called God, while Jesus is another? In addition, God has a Spirit which is how he will dwell in all.
The Trinity states that there are three persons that are a singular God. You agreed that the Father is God and Jesus is another.
All I can say is thanks for acknowledging the truth guys. God can even make those who oppose us say the same thing. And it is written that all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and I am guessing that many will try to oppose that, but will end up saying anyway. Since you have now agreed that the Father is God and Jesus is another, you are on the right track. Careful not to step away from here. It is an important truth. “For us, there is one God the Father”.How do you get vinegar from a sponge?
You must first soak the sponge in vinegar.
“For us there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.”
“Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
See, there is no vinegar here. It is coming from your own mind.But you reject the truth that Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God.
Further, you reject the truth that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God. He is the God of all comfort.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,Yes I have heard many sermons on the Trinity. And not once have I felt God Spirit witness it as truth. It only creates confusion when you seek to understand it. Confusion is not of God, but it is the very definition of Babel.
For me to accept it, it would have to be taught in scripture. I am rightly suspicious of any doctrine that contradicts scripture.
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