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Hi Mike.
Let’s imagine that God is a Trinity and not the Father as we believe.
Okay let’s give John 1:1 a whirl.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the Trinity, and the Trinity was word.
Okay so this means that the Word is not part of the Trinity. Further, the Trinity was WITH the Word.
Logically then their hypothesis of the data suggests four persons.
Yet in reality, the Word was with God in the beginning. It really is that simple. But many try to divert us from the simplicity of Christ and steer us toward a meta-physical gospel instead.David, you have brought up a lot of the usual “Jesus is God” proof texts. And as is usual for Trinitarians, they must list ALL these things at once, in an effort to overwhelm people with sheer volume. But not one of them actually even hint at some triune Godhead. I would love to discuss them one at a time with you, so you know they don’t really say what you think they do.
For example, “Before Abraham was, I am”. What would that even mean, David? If the “I am” part was supposed to be Jesus saying he was Jehovah, then he would have had to say, “Before Abraham was, I HAVE BEEN I am.”
Did you know that EVERY time in the OT that Jehovah says “I am Jehovah”, the Hebrew words are “aniy yhwh”. The “aniy” part means “I am”. So even IF “YHWH” is to be translated as “I AM”, any time Jehovah said who He was, He said “I am I AM”. Did Jesus say “I am I AM” in John 8:58? No. So let’s use “Jehovah” as God’s name for a second. What that means is Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, Jehovah”.
See? It makes no sense for him to say that. He didn’t say, “Before Abraham was, I WAS Jehovah”, right?
Now, consider John 14:9, which is almost unanimously translated in English Bibles as, “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I HAVE BEEN among you such a long time?” The actual Greek words are, “after I AM with you such a long time”. But there are MANY idiomatic problems when translating Greek into English, and virtually every English translator “overcomes” that problem in John 14:9, by translating into English as “I HAVE BEEN”, instead of “I AM”. What if they all did that in John 8:58 as well?
Obviously, the meaning was, “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN”. But because Trinitarians believe “I AM” is the correct translation of YHWH, and they believe then can turn a nonsensical statement into a declaration of deity, they will continue to translate 14:9 correctly, and 8:58 incorrectly – producing a sentence that makes absolutely no sense in English. And all for naught, because Jesus STILL doesn’t end up saying, “I am I AM”, or “I was I AM”.
So David,, if you allow me to discuss each and every one of your “Jesus is God” proof texts with you one at a time, we can slowly get to the bottom of every one of them. And you’ll see that not one of them actually even HINTS AT Jesus being the Most High God he is the Son of.
A person who believes in the Trinity Doctrine over the doctrine of Christ is a follower of Athanasius and not Christ, with regards to who Jesus is.
Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
Athanasius and the Trinity Doctrine basically states that there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
I wonder David L, if you can answer a question honestly for me.
In these words of Jesus:
Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
Who is the following word referring to: ‘whom’.
The only true God or Jesus Christ?Mike, t8,
“In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God”.
“In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was a god”.
The spirit shows us that the JW translation is incorrect.
Your mind will not show us ANYTHING.I am not a Trinitarian, but a Spirit Christologist. Trinitarian though is closer.
I sometimes wonder why people cannot just read the Bible and accept it. I am constantly amazed at how seldom people just read the Bible and say they accept it. It is really quite simple if one will just do that but most will say “I know it says that, but here is what it really means.” In most cases; everything after ‘this is what is really means’ is just wrong. If God is God I have to assume He had the ability to have recorded in the Bible what He wanted us to believe without having to twist things and look so hard for them. If God wanted us to think of Him and Jesus as being equal; I have to wonder why he allowed the words of Jesus when he said My Father is greater than I. If the Holy Spirit is not just the Spirit of God and is, in fact a third person; I have to wonder why it is not written that way. If Jesus is God and is equal to the Father I have to ask why did he pray at all much less to say in prayer that eternal life was to know the One true God and also to know Jesus. It would have been so easy when Jesus asked the disciples who he was and Peter answered that he was the Christ the Son of the living God, for Jesus to correct him and teach them he was, in fact, God. None of this happened. I never want to minimize the work of Jesus; but neither would I ever want to elevate him past the role of the Father who is the only true God. If we do that we are worshiping the Creation more than the Creator. If we will just read what it says and not add to or take away we will get the truth.
The word theos is applied to not only the Most High God but others. Jesus quoted, “ye are gods” from “ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God”.
Why does the term “most High Theos” even exist if ‘theos’ can only apply to the Most High?T8,
“God” is a title.
There are many that are CALLED gods.To the followers of Christ, such as John, there is only one true God.
So, when John says “The word was with God and the word WAS God” … He means it, and most certainly would of had that in mind, and would not have had the mindset of there being ‘Multiple True Gods’!-The word was God’s own Word.
-The spirit was God’s own Spirit.
-Jesus was a Man.
-God was in him through his Spirit.
-God was also in Heaven.I know the JW translation is wrong.
That is how I see it.
Becky,
I have friends who are JWs.A higher than average percentage of JWs are living off psychiatric medication. Why? Well… They are told by their magazine that they should take Prozac, etc, to be happy, because God does not heal people. Sad, when one of my friends used to be a Catholic, and a very successful, and motivated woman, who believed in God’s miracles, only now as a JW to be living in a mental hospital. So if you find it upsetting that I judge this as wrong, would your prefer me to tell her it is okay; just keep following those men; read your magazines; take your drugs as they tell you; and you will be fine? NO. I would rather tell her to BELIEVE in what she used to believe. Believe in the power of God to heal you.
As to the person of the Holy Spirit, it is all through scripture.
Google “Person of Holy Spirit” and you should find lists of scriptures.The Holy Spirit is not another God, but God’s own spirit.
The spirit knows the mind of God.That is what I believe.
I agree with much of what you say and it is clear to me that you at least think about things and seek them out, rather than just take the traditional view of things without question.
But there are some difficulties with your view.
1) The Word was with God
2) In the beginning
I would make the case to you that the beginning being spoken of is when the Word that was in God is now WITH him. The second century fathers believed that this was the first work of God and it did not minus the Word in God when he expressed/begat another. (Note: not first created thing and remember that there is no beginning with God).
Further, we see later in John 1:18 this verse:
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Yes this verse is translated as son in other bibles. But after discussing this with DavidL, I looked more into this and it is a weird verse because we are well aware that the AKJV has a Trinity bias and known Trinitarian corruptions in the translation and the textus receptive. And most modern bibles use much older texts including the DSC, and do not include these for good reason.
Yet this verse is in these modern bibles and not in the AKJV hinting at the possibility that it could legitimately belong there. But before DavidL or any other Trinitarian gets excited, it should be noted that the word ‘begotten’ is there also and that is a game changer. So the begotten theos would certainly answer to John 1:1c, ‘the Word was theos’, but it would absolutely contradict the Trinitarian view because to be begotten means to come from someone else, namely God who is the Father.
Of course it could say ‘begotten’ son instead, but either one certainly does not teach a Trinity. But what is interesting is that if ‘begotten theos’ is wrong, then it goes a long way back. From what I have read, it appears that Origen quoted it this way and he came up with the eternal generation of the son theory. I need to check this though.
Whatever the case, he was begotten from the Father as the son and theos or just the son and there is no hint of a Trinity in John 1:1 which seems to be what Trinitarians consider as their cornerstone of their doctrine.T8,
You said,
Quote “The word theos is applied to not only
the Most High God but others. Jesus
quoted, “ye are gods” from “ye are
elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High
God”.
Why does the term “most High Theos”
even exist if ‘theos’ can only apply to
the Most High?” Unquote.This has nothing to do with John 1:1.
If you really seeked truth, then you would ask God what it meant.
You would hear the true words ringing through.I also agree that the JW translation is perhaps just as presumptuous as the Trinitarian translations of John 1:1. There is neither a definite or indefinite article preceding the last mention of theos in John 1:1.
The dificulties I have with either is this:
> The Word was THE God basically means that Jesus is God to the exclusion of the Father.
> The Word was a god basically says that there were 2 gods in the beginning. One eternal one and a smaller one.
Although the latter could be said to answer to ‘begotten theos’ of John 1:18 if indeed that is the correct wording, it has to be noted that there is no indefinite article in Greek and thus I don’t see anyone being singled out as A god in the text, instead they are singled out as THE God. e.g., the theos of this age, (which is not YHWH). But what I do see in addition to this, is theos and/or elohim being used qualitatively to describe angels and God’s council including men. I think it is presumptious to say that an angel is A god, but that they collectively are called elohim and theos. This is not something I made up, but is there in the scriptures for anyone to see.False teachings are misleading, only those who mislead believe they have the truth, as history shows.
We have no need for a teacher, because the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth.You said:
I sometimes wonder why people cannot just read the Bible and accept it. I am constantly amazed at how seldom people just read the Bible and say they accept it. It is really quite simple if one will just do that but most will say
It says, “THE Word was with THE God”, but do you apply your quote to that particular text? And if so, please explain how that fits with your understanding.
T8,
Please stop thinking, and just allow God to teach you 😀
People THINK too much about this.
Just connect with God in spirit, is my last words for today!
“The Word was theos.”
Jesus said, “Ye are theos”.
Same sentence construction, in that they both say theos without the article.
So it does have something to do with John 1:1 in that if we understand how one can be used qualitatively, then it shows us how the other can be too.
This was the point, nothing more, nothing less. Just a grammar exercise. So probably would be wise to check out the point before making criticism.
🙂How do you know that I have not done that.
I am guessing because I have not believed exactly as you have. This is how you judge. If it doesn’t line up with you, then it is not of the Holy Spirit. Reminds me of DavidL and he has a completely different view to you.
This is why I bring scripture into it and test words to see if they were so. Believing that we have been revealed the truth even outside of scripture is dodgy.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
So let’s keep this on scripture and try to avoid judging others. I had to say the same thing to DavidL. Remember, we are all right in our own mind. This is why we need to turn to scripture to guide us.T8
I apply my quote to everything in the Bible and I see no problem applying it to the scripture you reference. If there was a misunderstanding as to what I believe; I believe there is One God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. While individual verses pulled out of context may make one consider the Trinity or even the Oneness doctrines; looking at all of the scripture as one book which explains itself can only lead to a belief in one true God who has a son named Jesus. Any other doctrine can only be held if scripture is twisted or “explained” in ways it was not written.Amen t8.
Even Trinitarian SCHOLARS can’t accurately explain this thing they’re asking their followers to believe. Even they say what David says: “You must be shown this truth by the Spirit”.
Mystery Babylon anyone?
Wondering,
I feels bad for you friend and that is an unfortunate thing to happen to her. But all christian denominations have congregations that differ from area to area. That is what happens when man decides to use his own opinion instead of what the bible teaches. I told you earlier that I am not a witness, which I am not, but I was raised as one and have to say that I think in someways you have been miss informed. I grew up with this type of prejudice and judgement. Did jesus really what us to treat people this way? All in the name of religion? That really doesn’t sound like the Jesus in read in the bible. As far as the Holy Spirit, I was taught that it is gods spirit, his active force. I thought this was a place for scriptural discussion, which is way I asked you to show me one. So now I ask you to show me a scripturaly were anyone has the right to judge who does and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit.
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